Any of you hippies protest at Wall Street?

[Postbiological]

Bob and Mary are borrowing $100. Bob lives in Idaho. Mary lives in New York. They will default with 1&#37; probability each. Their default has some correlation < 1. Is it riskier (higher volatility of returns) for investor A to lend Bob money and investor B to lend Mary money, or for investor A and B to each lend half the amount to Bob and Mary?

If you can't provably figure out the answer, it's not your fault, but you simply don't understand the math behind it. The fact that the volatility of diversified investments is lower is NOT a matter of opinion. People who disagree don't just "have another viewpoint." They're wrong. It doesn't matter if everyone doesn't agree. That doesn't affect correctness. Read anything on portfolio theory if you genuinely want to know more about how this works..

Does securitization perhaps have negative externalities, like the possibility of overconfidence in shitty models? Maybe. But that's because people suck at it, not because the strategy is wrong.

It's fine to take this rather condescending argumentative approach, but I don't see what your point is other than that you believe securitzation is a sound strategy for managing risk in loans.

 

[Postbiological]

True.

I have never seen patchouli stink hippies so aptly described.


The truth is that we are just seeing the pains of going into an Alpha Beta Gama society. The Alphas create knowledge, they are scientists and engineers (which is what those guys on wall-street are, you know?). The Betas can do well, they trade on their specialized knowledge that they apply to service the Alphas and other Betas; they are nurses, accountants and teachers; pay may be better for some Betas than for some Alphas (see lawyer > philosopher) but the prestige and 'joy' of working is still loaded towards the Alpha. Then we have the Gamas, they pick cotton, take out trash and serve food. They serve the alphas and the betas and other Gamas; they just get less service relative to the physical labor they put in. But physical labor is easy to come by, just run a generator, the hard part of life is mental labor.

Many people went to school thinking they would be an Alpha and can't seem to grasp that they've only qualified to be Betas at best. More people seem to think that it is your right to live wherever you want, no matter what your profession or status, when only that top 1% even deserve to consider living in the best places. The top 1% put in 80 hours a week for decades to get to be that top 1%.


If you don't spend 80 hours a week working on making yourself a better person then you've got no room to complain about how "the system" or "the rich" screwed you. You screwed you.

? There are plenty of people who work 80 hours a week and who are not in the 1%, and plenty, plenty of people in the 1% who do not work 80 hours a week, or at all.

This attitude of defending the wealthy against all criticism is amazing.

 

[Juked07]

It's fine to take this rather condescending argumentative approach, but I don't see what your point is other than that you believe securitzation is a sound strategy for managing risk in loans.

Wasn't trying to offend anyone.. Not sure I really have any really worthwhile point =D

I thought it was relevant to your ideas about how creating a sophisticated lending scheme was the cause of massive defaulting, rather than irresponsible borrowers? I guess I am trying to demonstrate that the "sophisticated lending scheme" is not the problem. And in fact it wasn't a mechanism for profiting at the expense of the little guy. Banks did contribute to the problem, and they did perhaps trade securities that were too complex for their own good, but that's not really what you were saying..

The problem (I agree that one or more exist!) lies elsewhere, and if we want to get anything done we need to refocus our efforts.

 

[Juked07]

? There are plenty of people who work 80 hours a week and who are not in the 1%, and plenty, plenty of people in the 1% who do not work 80 hours a week, or at all.

This attitude of defending the wealthy against all criticism is amazing.

At some point I think you're just trolling. He didn't claim that all people who work 80 hours a week make it to the top 1%, and he clearly didn't mean to say that literally every person in the top 1% has never gone a week without working 80 hours. It's obvious his point is that most people can accomplish something worthwhile if they work hard, and that most people who accomplish a lot have worked hard. Keeping this in mind is better (both in accuracy and practicality) than not really working that hard and blaming others.

Anyway. Gotta go to bed. I might come hang out tomorrow, see you thenn

 

[Postbiological]

Wasn't trying to offend anyone.. Not sure I really have any really worthwhile point =D

I thought it was relevant to your ideas about how creating a sophisticated lending scheme was the cause of massive defaulting, rather than irresponsible borrowers? I guess I am trying to demonstrate that the "sophisticated lending scheme" is not the problem. And in fact it wasn't a mechanism for profiting at the expense of the little guy. Banks did contribute to the problem, and they did perhaps trade securities that were too complex for their own good, but that's not really what you were saying..

The problem (I agree that one or more exist!) lies elsewhere, and if we want to get anything done we need to refocus our efforts.

Well, I will acknowledge that I have more to learn on this topic, but at the moment, to me, there is a difference between how risk in loans is managed (e.g., securitization), and whether or not those loans (such as subprime loans) should have been made in the first place ...

 

[LegendKiller]

I don't think it's generally agreed that securitization of debt is as wise an idea as you are suggesting.

As probably the only person on this board who has structured, documented, closed, managed, amended & worked out, and had securitizations paid off, I'd say that securitization debt is a VERY wise way of financing, one that has reduced borrowing costs tremendously over the past 30 years without significant faults until the last 5 or so. Further, I would say that over almost every other asset class in securitization, save housing, there have not been significant systemic defaults of the securitizations.

Have they encouraged "pass the trash"? Sure they have, but no more than any other financing scheme has allowed banks to speculate and/or move risk in the last several hundred years.

Blaming the tool for the users issue isn't the right way to solve the issue. Regulation could have prevented the bulk of these issues.

 

[halik]

Well, I will acknowledge that I have more to learn on this topic, but at the moment, to me, there is a difference between how risk in loans is managed (e.g., securitization), and whether or not those loans (such as subprime loans) should have been made in the first place ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_portfolio_theory

 

[Postbiological]

At some point I think you're just trolling. He didn't claim that all people who work 80 hours a week make it to the top 1%, and he clearly didn't mean to say that literally every person in the top 1% has never gone a week without working 80 hours. It's obvious his point is that most people can accomplish something worthwhile if they work hard, and that most people who accomplish a lot have worked hard. Keeping this in mind is better (both in accuracy and practicality) than not really working that hard and blaming others.

Anyway. Gotta go to bed. I might come hang out tomorrow, see you thenn

I'm just arguing for a point of view ... I don't get this obviously arbitrary and meaningless sloganeering like "If you don't work 80 hours a week you've got no right to complain about not being in the 1%!"


It's interesting that "the 1%" has become a more common term recently.

 

[Postbiological]

As probably the only person on this board who has structured, documented, closed, managed, amended & worked out, and had securitizations paid off, I'd say that securitization debt is a VERY wise way of financing, one that has reduced borrowing costs tremendously over the past 30 years without significant faults until the last 5 or so. Further, I would say that over almost every other asset class in securitization, save housing, there have not been significant systemic defaults of the securitizations.

Have they encouraged "pass the trash"? Sure they have, but no more than any other financing scheme has allowed banks to speculate and/or move risk in the last several hundred years.

Blaming the tool for the users issue isn't the right way to solve the issue. Regulation could have prevented the bulk of these issues.

And I don't see how I or anyone else was blaming securitization for the current problem ...

 

[zinfamous]

I don't get it. I try to explain it to my friends who bitch and moan about not having what they want. I have exactly what I want in life right now. I work my job so I can have those things. If I suddenly wanted less, I would seek lesser employment because I wouldn't need to make as much money, if I wanted more I would do something to earn more to cover my expenses. Some are just so blown away by this, they just want to do what they want to do and get paid for it. Why should it be any other way? Morons act like I enjoy QAing software, it's a means to an end and that's the part I enjoy.

you sound just like "them"

with detail and much planning, as you so clearly have it, please explain:

1. what lesser employment is there for you to seek?
2. what is that "something" that you would so easily do to earn more, if you so choose, on a whim?

you dudes prattle on and on about how easy it is for you to work your butts off and achieve whatever it is you want to acheive simply by will, by hard work--and this theory that such qualities are relevant and easily applicable today.

basically...you are full of as much shit as everyone that you decry, without suggesting any real-world application of your godlike ability to suddenly "make more" if you just apply yourself.

 

[Arkaign]

I'm just arguing for a point of view ... I don't get this obviously arbitrary and meaningless sloganeering like "If you don't work 80 hours a week you've got no right to complain about not being in the 1%!"

It's interesting that "the 1%" has become a more common term recently.

Interestingly, the top 1% are overwhelmingly family / dynasty kind of $.

BUT

It's very very true that if you're not born to the elite class, you CAN claw your way up if you are a combination of smart, lucky, and most importantly a dynamo in terms of work ethic.

 

[zinfamous]

True.

I have never seen patchouli stink hippies so aptly described.


The truth is that we are just seeing the pains of going into an Alpha Beta Gama society. The Alphas create knowledge, they are scientists and engineers (which is what those guys on wall-street are, you know?). The Betas can do well, they trade on their specialized knowledge that they apply to service the Alphas and other Betas; they are nurses, accountants and teachers; pay may be better for some Betas than for some Alphas (see lawyer > philosopher) but the prestige and 'joy' of working is still loaded towards the Alpha. Then we have the Gamas, they pick cotton, take out trash and serve food. They serve the alphas and the betas and other Gamas; they just get less service relative to the physical labor they put in. But physical labor is easy to come by, just run a generator, the hard part of life is mental labor.

..what? the Alphas are certainly not the ones creating knowledge--no one on wall street is creating knowledge. They create money.

They invest and capitalize on the works of those far smarter than they. They are successful because they are clever parasites. nothing more. The worst of the worst contribute nothing to society but individual greed and runaway debt.

lol, "job creators" my ass. what a fucking pack of lies.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

At some point I think you're just trolling. He didn't claim that all people who work 80 hours a week make it to the top 1&#37;, and he clearly didn't mean to say that literally every person in the top 1% has never gone a week without working 80 hours. It's obvious his point is that most people can accomplish something worthwhile if they work hard, and that most people who accomplish a lot have worked hard. Keeping this in mind is better (both in accuracy and practicality) than not really working that hard and blaming others.

I'm just arguing for a point of view ... I don't get this obviously arbitrary and meaningless sloganeering like "If you don't work 80 hours a week you've got no right to complain about not being in the 1%!"


It's interesting that "the 1%" has become a more common term recently.

Clearly you're the one sloganeering Sr.

The one thing I ask for from people taking a side is intellectual honesty; It's the one thing I rarely get. (edit: changed never to rarely, reason: Zinfamous)

If you ever feel like having a debate on the merits of your ideas as opposed to the emotions of your cause you can look me up.

the Alphas are certainly not the ones creating knowledge--no one on wall street is creating knowledge. They create money.

It's a bunch of computer programming physics Ph.D.s running the world man; they've got a heavy grasp on math-ing out reality and they use it to take advantage of small gaps in the efficiency of the market. This helps companies that deserve the resources gain access to them, this helps those people that want to invest in companies that deserve the resources gain access to said companies. They make money by helping society become more efficient and do a better job of not wasting funds.

Many are, i'll grant you, drug-addled whore-loving sacks of shit that don't deserve, or rightly use, the money they earn... but this is an argument for taxation, not against the value of the job they do.

If you have a problem then it's not with wall-street it's with K-street; we should demand better internalization of currently externalized costs: not blame those who are helping maximize the efficiency and productivity of everyone.

Here's a lit review of books that'll make you one of the most valuable (and thus best paid) members of society:
http://www.svms.org/finance/

here's a book to start you in that direction:
http://www.amazon.com/Bio-Inspired-C...7710649&amp;sr=8-1

Making infinite money is my back up plan if helping organizations better utilize those with autistic minds falls through.

 

[halik]

..what? the Alphas are certainly not the ones creating knowledge--no one on wall street is creating knowledge. They create money.

They invest and capitalize on the works of those far smarter than they. They are successful because they are clever parasites. nothing more. The worst of the worst contribute nothing to society but individual greed and runaway debt.

lol, "job creators" my ass. what a fucking pack of lies.

I made currency transactions cheaper for everyone - how does that make me a parasite?

 

[bfdd]

you sound just like "them"

with detail and much planning, as you so clearly have it, please explain:

1. what lesser employment is there for you to seek?
2. what is that "something" that you would so easily do to earn more, if you so choose, on a whim?

you dudes prattle on and on about how easy it is for you to work your butts off and achieve whatever it is you want to acheive simply by will, by hard work--and this theory that such qualities are relevant and easily applicable today.

basically...you are full of as much shit as everyone that you decry, without suggesting any real-world application of your godlike ability to suddenly "make more" if you just apply yourself.

I would find more work? Unlike most of these guys I have done some pretty tough low paying jobs for money. I'll under cut the shit out of an illegal if it means feeding myself. Lol zinfamous you didn't pick the right person to attack on that front. If I wanted more money I would try to seek a higher line of work at my current location. They could always use some new devs, I just kind of like my qa job.

 

[halik]

lulz:
http://gawker.com/5846276/wall-stre...ection-we-got-arrested-on-the-brooklyn-bridge

Party-on, kids.

 

[bignateyk]

lulz:
http://gawker.com/5846276/wall-stre...ection-we-got-arrested-on-the-brooklyn-bridge

Party-on, kids.

Damn. I was hoping the cops put a "missed connection" on craigslist for someone they were looking for and some idiot answered it and got arrested.

 

[dwell]

Some of these news reports read like an Onion article.

http://culture.wnyc.org/articles/features/2011/oct/03/music-occupies-wall-street/

The never-ending drum circles in Zuccotti Park haven't gone unnoticed. Gio Andollo, a singer songwriter camped out in the park on Monday (and dressed up as a zombie along with other protestors), pointed to a recent segment on The Daily Show, in which Jon Stewart compared the Occupy Wall Street protest to the Tennessee music festival Bonnaroo.

If you ever find yourself in a drum circle, you need to question if have anything worth a damn to add to society.

 

[bfdd]

Also, the whole point of talking about people in numbers like this is to make it impersonal, make it easier to take things from others, easier to opress others when you there's nothing personal about it. Not to mention, there will ALWAYS be 1&#37;, no matter what system we use. So as long as idiots are running around calling themselves 99ers and referring to other idiots as 1%ers, keep me out of your count to 100% k? I don't play these stupid fucking games.

 

[Ninjahedge]

bfdd, you are blowing smoke.

You say you would "undercut an illegal" but you know that it is nearly impossible to undercut someone who does not earn enough to really survive at the lowest of levels.

You, alone, would not be able to do it. You would have to have a family supporting you, and hope you do not get sick. Just look at the one episode of that show the "SuperSize Me" dude ran on taking 2 minimum wage jobs and trying to survive a month on it.

His wife getting pneumonia put them so far in debt they could not do anything, and such is life.

The problem is that your arguments are too vague, with no real backing or proof. Somehow you are a golden goose that can at least pull copper out his ass if need be and that nothing would ever challenge you....

"My friends are all amazed". They are not amazed, you are trying to shock them with your unbalanced theories and beliefs with no real proof.

BTW, whoever was talking about that "If you do not work 80 hours" BS, STFU. Complete hogwash. So anybody that is not on the police force can't say anything about crime? So someone that is not voluntarily contributing more to the federal government cannot talk about the debt?


Again, as I said 8 pages ago, you have to focus on the actual issue rather than whoever your entertainment based news program wishes to show.

90&#37; of people on both sides are sheeple. Unfortunately, that is what we all focus on and call each other rednecks hippies and such. Meanwhile we are willing to let companies establish their manufacturing plants overseas so we get cheaper tube socks and don't ask our government to interceed with better tariffs or taxes on these companies (*cough*GW*cough*) to help diffray the cost of this outsourcing.

But whatever, keep yelling at the 20-something with a hand written sign saying they live with their mom. Keep ignoring the actual issue and be led by the nose, happily, through the field.

 

[SandEagle]

"On the day when you again allow abominable men to confiscate your freedom, your money, your lives, your private property, your manhood and your sacred honor, in the name of"security' or"national emergency' you will die, and never again shall you be free.

If plotters again destroy your Republic, they will do it by your greedy and ignorant assent, by your disregard of your neighbors' rights, by your apathy and your stupidity.

We were brought to the brink of universal death and darkness because we had become that most contemptible of people -- an angerless one.

Keep alive and vivid all your righteous anger against traitors, against those who would abrogate your Constitution, against those who would lead you to wars with false slogans and cunning appeals to your patriotism."

--Taylor Caldwell,"The Devil's Advocate"(1952)

 

[airdata]

Anybody who just writes off the protests and thinks everything is ok in america is simply a fucking idiot.

There's really no other way to put it. You're a fucking idiot. If you think that our country is doing great, and that people on wallstreet aren't looting peoples 401k's every day, you're a fucking idiot.

Sorry, but I really feel the need to stress that if those are your views, that you're a fucking idiot.

 

[Patranus]

Anybody who just writes off the protests and thinks everything is ok in america is simply a fucking idiot.

There's really no other way to put it. You're a fucking idiot. If you think that our country is doing great, and that people on wallstreet aren't looting peoples 401k's every day, you're a fucking idiot.

Sorry, but I really feel the need to stress that if those are your views, that you're a fucking idiot.

Then buy treasury bonds if you think that wall street is looting your 401k.

Simple solution to a (non) problem.
This is America. If you don't like a product, you have the choice to buy it or not buy it.
Enough people don't buy the product the company has to adapt or go out of business.
If you continue to buy it then you cannot bitch about it.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Pat, it does not work that way and you know it.

The treasury bonds are a small pittance of a reward for giving money to the US government. Using that as an alternative is just stupid.

As for things like the 401Ks, that is a valid assertion, but the problem is deeper than that. When powerful entities can actually redefine things and call them by their own ratings systems (such as the recent debacle with lowering the US bond rating to AA+) you are no longer playing fair.

Corporate interests have gone so far that they have made it a law to be able to consider themselves to have as many rights as an individual citizen, including rights of litigation and other less tangable but powerful designations.

We have it now where companies have BOUGHT the right to copyright variations in the genome to "patent" soy beans and make it illegal for anyone to use them, BUT it is just fine for them to allow their patented "product" to contaminate everyone else's through open pollination and then declare the cross pollinated strands as an infraction.

Money is now writing the rules and gradually stripping the bottom layers off one by one.

For anyone that keeps posting BS about The American Way, all one has to do is look back to the times of coal mines and railroad tycoons to realize that Big Business, whether it be a family or a conglomerate, is NOT looking out for the common man.

One final thing. Stop playing polar opposites. There is a whole range of values and positions on this.

If all we dealt with was Gamma Radiation and Radio Waves, nobody would be able to see the rainbow.

 

[TallBill]

Anybody who just writes off the protests and thinks everything is ok in america is simply a fucking idiot.

There's really no other way to put it. You're a fucking idiot. If you think that our country is doing great, and that people on wallstreet aren't looting peoples 401k's every day, you're a fucking idiot.

Sorry, but I really feel the need to stress that if those are your views, that you're a fucking idiot.

I guess I'm a fucking idiot. I see the protesters outside the Chicago Federal Reserve on days that I work and laugh every time.

1. Shit isn't going to change because they are out there.
2. They'll still be unemployed tomorrow. Go job search. I know its tough, but your efforts will be better spent trying to actually get employed.