Any gay ATOT'ers here?

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: JS80

People who live hetero lives and later "give in" to homosexuality is further evidence to me that it is a choice. I mean, the guy is able to get hard, bang his wife, and have kids. Ultimately he is choosing to abandon his family to be with another man.

But the governor of NJ, for example, said himself that he knew he was gay for a long time. The urges didn't change, he simply couldn't keep it hidden forever.

Yes, he did make a choice to ignore the urges, but that doesn't mean he was a heterosexual... it just means he was ignoring his homosexual urges.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

"hey, i think i'll be gay, get ostracized from my peers, run the risk of my parents disowning me, and just learn to live in a society that doesnt like me!"

while being gay is most likely something ingrained that isn't 'chosen' in any sense of the word, millions of people do make choices that do exactly that. for instance:

"hey, i think i'll be emo, get ostracized from my peers, run the risk of my parents disowning me, and just learn to live in a society that doesnt like me!"

"hey, i think i'll be goth, get ostracized from my peers, run the risk of my parents disowning me, and just learn to live in a society that doesnt like me!"

"hey, i think i'll smoke crack, get ostracized from my peers, run the risk of my parents disowning me, and just learn to live in a society that doesnt like me!"

Right, there's an endless truckload of sefl-importance that comes with being discriminated against and, even better, a civil rights victim.

 

[j00fek]

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

QFT, homosexuals have been around since the Greeks and Romans, it's not some fad that suddenly popped up.

 

[IAteYourMother]

I'm guessing something happens to the person while they're a fetus in terms of hormonal balance

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80


From observing nature: I would expect there to be gay animals if it were a natural thing. But there are no true homosexual animals.

This is incorrect. Homosexuality does occur in some animals.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod


As for why there are no gay animals... well, gay animals wouldn't be passing on their genes.

Wrong. There are gay animals, and people posted links about it before your post.


It's obvious that those who think it's a choice are holy rollers who blindly regurgitate the church's line and don't think for themselves. Your urges come from within you, you don't decide what you like and don't like. Sure, you can have sex with a steaming pile of dog crap if you forced yourself to do so, but that doesn't mean you had the urge to do it. For me, I have a urge to be closer to a woman. I'm not forcing myself against my will to do it, it's an urge. I have no urge to do that with a man. It's not really a choice, as the motivating force is instinctual.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: BouZouki

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

QFT, homosexuals have been around since the Greeks and Romans, it's not some fad that suddenly popped up.

Right. The Greeks and Romans led lives of abject decadence. As I stated above, burning out on regular sex would be one reason to move onto something different. Between Rome and today, however, you've mostly got people working too hard to have time to have sex all day long.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BouZouki

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

QFT, homosexuals have been around since the Greeks and Romans, it's not some fad that suddenly popped up.

Right. The Greeks and Romans led lives of abject decadence. .

No they did not. How would they get anything if they didn't work for it? Maybe the elite had easy lives, but most of the population had to work for a living. Someone had to chisel out all those buildings from stone, someone had to build the aquaducts, someone had to make the clothes, etc.

They wouldn't have built an advanced society by sitting around doing nothing.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod


As for why there are no gay animals... well, gay animals wouldn't be passing on their genes.

Wrong. There are gay animals, and people posted links about it before your post.


It's obvious that those who think it's a choice are holy rollers who blindly regurgitate the church's line and don't think for themselves. Your urges come from within you, you don't decide what you like and don't like. Sure, you can have sex with a steaming pile of dog crap if you forced yourself to do so, but that doesn't mean you had the urge to do it. For me, I have a urge to be closer to a woman. I'm not forcing myself against my will to do it, it's an urge. I have no urge to do that with a man. It's not really a choice, as the motivating force is instinctual.

Why do you have to bring up the church? The same could be said about you. You blindly give into the whitewashing propaganda by gay groups blah blah blah.

Some people have urges to have sex with 12 year olds or go on a strangle spree and have sex with carcasses. Is it justified just because it's an "urge"? (disclaimer - I am in no way equivocating homosexuality to child molestation or serial murder)

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80


From observing nature: I would expect there to be gay animals if it were a natural thing. But there are no true homosexual animals.

This is incorrect. Homosexuality does occur in some animals.

You can't prove either way that animals are homosexual. Show me an animal where 2 males have anal sex and jizz on each other. Then I will believe that homosexuality is not choice.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80

Why do you have to bring up the church? The same could be said about you. You blindly give into the whitewashing propaganda by gay groups blah blah blah.

Some people have urges to have sex with 12 year olds or go on a strangle spree and have sex with carcasses. Is it justified just because it's an "urge"? (disclaimer - I am in no way equivocating homosexuality to child molestation or serial murder)

Because hardcore religious nuts all spout the same line. They didn't think it up themselves, they're just repeating what they hear in church.

I'm not gay, and don't listen to them advocating their gayness. I definitely don't subscribe to their ultra-liberal ordeals.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80

Why do you have to bring up the church? The same could be said about you. You blindly give into the whitewashing propaganda by gay groups blah blah blah.

Some people have urges to have sex with 12 year olds or go on a strangle spree and have sex with carcasses. Is it justified just because it's an "urge"? (disclaimer - I am in no way equivocating homosexuality to child molestation or serial murder)

Because hardcore religious nuts all spout the same line. They didn't think it up themselves, they're just repeating what they hear in church.

I'm not gay, and don't listen to them advocating their gayness. I definitely don't subscribe to their ultra-liberal ordeals.

So if someone came to the same conclusion (by themselves without any outside influence) as some of these idiot churches you're going to ASSume they are a "holy roller"?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

Imho, your statements has no pertinence to the OP's question. And, fwiw, I disagree with you and think suboptimal conditions lead to people being inclined that way.

my statement is related to the issue posed in the question.

explain these "suboptimal conditions" that lead to homosexuality.

Lack of father figure growing up, bad experiences with girls early on, molestation, people treating you like you're gay and making you doubt yourself, burning out/boredom with "orinary" sex, etc. Chart the rise in homosexuality with the increased number of broken homes.

Also, I have a cousin who is gay. He met the first condition above and I recall him stating in his adolescent years that he "wanted" to be gay and, surprise, he's now gay.

So, uh, what's your reason? You heard some guy on TV say something once? :thumbsup:

It has been generally thought that the percentage of gay people in a population is relatively constant, it's just how apparent they are depends on the society's acceptance during the given period. It has become more accepted in mainstream US culture so you see more people who are open about it. They were there all the time, you can just see them now.

I know a number of gay people who don't fit your "suboptimal conditions" reasoning. Not a single gay person I've ever talked to considered homosexuality a choice (on any level).

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80


From observing nature: I would expect there to be gay animals if it were a natural thing. But there are no true homosexual animals.

This is incorrect. Homosexuality does occur in some animals.

You can't prove either way that animals are homosexual. Show me an animal where 2 males have anal sex and jizz on each other. Then I will believe that homosexuality is not choice.

It's easy to prove. Observe a bunch of animals and watch their sexual patterns. If you see males normally mounting females, you know the animal has a tendency to do that. But if you see a male exclusively mounting other males, that animal is gay. Animals have been observed doing this.

 

[RaiderJ]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: moshquerade
cool enough, but can you explain why you disagree? you think being homosexual comes from nuture and not nature?

From personal experience: every gay person I *personally* know had either abusive or extreme parents, or were sexually molested as a child. I can't say if this is correlation or causation, but this is a repeated story I have heard from others.

From observing nature: I would expect there to be gay animals if it were a natural thing. But there are no true homosexual animals.

From the Bible: Bible suggests (does not say 100%, but says it is a sin) homosexuality is not natural.

My conclusion: I lean towards some nuture but ultimately it's choice. Even if it is a deep inside *urge* to be gay, ultimately is it the individual's choice to act out on that urge.

For the flamers: I am not an anti-gay bigot. Although I believe it is a sin, we are all sinners and have our faults. I make no judgments on anyone based on their lifestyle choice. The only beef I have is people who try to shove their viewpoint down the public's throat (pun not intended) to justify their lifestyle. It's just as bad as the hypocrites who shove their morality down our throats and claim homos go to hell.

I have a couple gay friends and I know for a fact they came from perfectly healthy homes. They've always been gay, never had much of a choice, no more so than I did to be straight.

Still, I imagine that given a choice, they would have preferred to be straight. Makes life easier to be in the majority. Luckily, things are changing these days where people are more accepting of homosexuality (when it's not being shoved down their throats (no pun intended)

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80

So if someone came to the same conclusion (by themselves without any outside influence) as some of these idiot churches you're going to ASSume they are a "holy roller"?

You quoted the Bible among your reasons that it's a choice. That's a surefire way to make one think that you're a holy roller.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80


From observing nature: I would expect there to be gay animals if it were a natural thing. But there are no true homosexual animals.

This is incorrect. Homosexuality does occur in some animals.

You can't prove either way that animals are homosexual. Show me an animal where 2 males have anal sex and jizz on each other. Then I will believe that homosexuality is not choice.

It's easy to prove. Observe a bunch of animals and watch their sexual patterns. If you see males normally mounting females, you know the animal has a tendency to do that. But if you see a male exclusively mounting other males, that animal is gay. Animals have been observed doing this.

That does not prove the animal is "gay."

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80

That does not prove the animal is "gay."

Sure it does, unless you'd believe a dude who says, "I'm not gay, I just like to exclusively have sex with other dudes".

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

Imho, your statements has no pertinence to the OP's question. And, fwiw, I disagree with you and think suboptimal conditions lead to people being inclined that way.

my statement is related to the issue posed in the question.

explain these "suboptimal conditions" that lead to homosexuality.

Lack of father figure growing up, bad experiences with girls early on, molestation, people treating you like you're gay and making you doubt yourself, burning out/boredom with "orinary" sex, etc. Chart the rise in homosexuality with the increased number of broken homes.

Also, I have a cousin who is gay. He met the first condition above and I recall him stating in his adolescent years that he "wanted" to be gay and, surprise, he's now gay.

So, uh, what's your reason? You heard some guy on TV say something once? :thumbsup:

I don't know what programs you are watching on TV, but I've never heard a guy on "TV say something" even once about people being born with an inherent tendency to be homosexual. Your assumption that I am basing my opinion on a talking head on TV is borderline insultive and the reason that a lot of these threads do indeed become flame wars.

The reason I believe people are born homosexual is the same reason I believe people are born heterosexual. We have these feelings either way from the beginning. We can try to deny them, but they are there no matter what we do.

I know many gay people and they did not come from single parent homes, abusive homes, etc.
Otherwise, how would you explain siblings in the same exact home, and the same exact conditions NOT being gay?

And who wasn't picked on in their youth? It doesn't make someone "turn gay".
Also, I've never come across someone who couldn't get a girlfriend so they turned to pursuing a boyfriend. The only time I've seen that is because the person truly didn't have their heart into girls and they were in denial about their homosexuality.

Is there a "rise in homosexuality" or is there just a rise in those who dare to admit and to practice homosexuality? Even though not universally accepted, homosexuality is far more tolerated by the populace than it used to be, and more have dared to come out of the closet. That accounts for the "rise in homosexuality".

 

[amdforever2]

I wouldn't take a straight option then or now.


Being gay and then opting to take an easy way out because of cowardice is lame. Even if changing who I was was as easy as snapping fingers I still wouldn't do it.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80

So if someone came to the same conclusion (by themselves without any outside influence) as some of these idiot churches you're going to ASSume they are a "holy roller"?

You quoted the Bible among your reasons that it's a choice. That's a surefire way to make one think that you're a holy roller.

You obviously don't understand Christianity, no more than the fringe groups that condemn people to hell.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80

That does not prove the animal is "gay."

Sure it does, unless you'd believe a dude who says, "I'm not gay, I just like to exclusively have sex with other dudes".

Place that animal in front of a female in heat vs another male, it will hump the female 101% of the time. Humping something due to the lack of females does not make the animal homosexual.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: moshquerade
imho, no one chooses to be gay. they are just born that way.

Imho, your statements has no pertinence to the OP's question. And, fwiw, I disagree with you and think suboptimal conditions lead to people being inclined that way.

my statement is related to the issue posed in the question.

explain these "suboptimal conditions" that lead to homosexuality.

Lack of father figure growing up, bad experiences with girls early on, molestation, people treating you like you're gay and making you doubt yourself, burning out/boredom with "orinary" sex, etc. Chart the rise in homosexuality with the increased number of broken homes.

Also, I have a cousin who is gay. He met the first condition above and I recall him stating in his adolescent years that he "wanted" to be gay and, surprise, he's now gay.

So, uh, what's your reason? You heard some guy on TV say something once? :thumbsup:

I don't know what programs you are watching on TV, but I've never heard a guy on "TV say something" even once about people being born with an inherent tendency to be homosexual. Your assumption that I am basing my opinion on a talking head on TV is borderline insultive and the reason that a lot of these threads do indeed become flame wars.

The reason I believe people are born homosexual is the same reason I believe people are born heterosexual. We have these feelings either way from the beginning. We can try to deny them, but they are there no matter what we do.

I know many gay people and they did not come from single parent homes, abusive homes, etc.
Otherwise, how would you explain siblings in the same exact home, and the same exact conditions NOT being gay?

And who wasn't picked on in their youth? It doesn't make someone "turn gay".
Also, I've never come across someone who couldn't get a girlfriend so they turned to pursuing a boyfriend. The only time I've seen that is because the person truly didn't have their heart into girls and they were in denial about their homosexuality.

Is there a "rise in homosexuality" or is there just a rise in those who dare to admit and to practice homosexuality? Even though not universally accepted, homosexuality is far more tolerated by the populace than it used to be, and more have dared to come out of the closet. That accounts for the "rise in homosexuality".

You're not technically gay until you act out on it. So I would say there technically IS a "rise in homosexuality" because of the "acceptance" by it in modern civilization, more people are willing to "try it out."

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: JS80

That does not prove the animal is "gay."

Sure it does, unless you'd believe a dude who says, "I'm not gay, I just like to exclusively have sex with other dudes".

Place that animal in front of a female in heat vs another male, it will hump the female 101% of the time. Humping something due to the lack of females does not make the animal homosexual.

Did you not even read my previous post?

Some male animals have been observed completely ignoring the females and exclusively going after other males. This has already been observed, we're not guessing here.

Not only has your "101%" claim been invalidate before you even made the statement, it's just plain bad math.