ANTI-KERRY AD A HIT

[Todd33]

It's proven that the book and ads are misleading people to think these are people who served with Kerry. They are a bunch of flip-flopping story guys who are pissed at Kerry's testomony to Congress. You want to know who's unfit? The guy who scored 25 on the flight test, the lowest passing score possible. The guy who skipped his medical weeks after manditory drug testing was enacted.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Todd33
It's proven that the book and ads are misleading people to think these are people who served with Kerry. They are a bunch of flip-flopping story guys who are pissed at Kerry's testomony to Congress. You want to know who's unfit? The guy who scored 25 on the flight test, the lowest passing score possible. The guy who skipped his medical weeks after manditory drug testing was enacted.

These are people that served with kerry. There is nothing misleading about that.

 

[Todd33]

These are people that served with kerry. There is nothing misleading about that.

While some were in Nam at the same time and were on boats nearby, none served on his boat. The author wasn't even in Nam at the same time, lol.

You want to believe, so you will. The book was written for people like you, enjoy.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Steve Gardner served on Kerry's boat for several months, as a gunner I believe. In any case the idea that you HAVE to be on Kerry's boat to hold a valid opinion is ludicrous. You may not have as close a relationship with him, but someone on the next boat can easily observe Kerry's actions. And unless he was a social recluse, he probably interacted with others as well.

Where is this proof that they are lying anyway? Is it just the testimony of the other pro-Kerry veterans?

 

[LordMagnusKain]

While some were in Nam at the same time and were on boats nearby, none served on his boat.

so when you see some chicken little run t'll the fighting stops only to turn back around and pick up some poor shlub in the water and thus demand a silver star for himself... you're going to tell me what you saw doesn't count, because you where only the one's actually fighting, instead of the guy hightailing it away from conflict?

Only one presidential candidate is being called a liar, in regards to his service, by his compatriots and that only fox-news is even looking into the facts shows how incredibly liberally bias the rest of the media is.

 

[PELarson]

Based on the reports of SBV for T, Lt. JG John F. Kerry is an amalgamation of Rasputin and Swengali or the Naval command structure in Vietnam was piss poor. Neither of which make sense.

 

[Ldir]

Kerry served in combat. Bush dodged service, then went AWOL from the cushy post daddy got him. Kerry has honor. Dubya does not. Case closed.


---------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

 

[Red Dawn]

ANTI-KERRY AD A HIT PIECE

Fixed the title for you!

 

[heartsurgeon]

HS:

Let's hear about your service history, if you are going to pooh-pooh Senator Kerry's. Have you ever been shot at by enemies of the United States? If you are of Vietnam-era age (as I believe you've said you are), did you volunteer for service in Vietnam, as Senator Kerry did? Have you ever even worn a military uniform? Do you really regard "Unfit for Command" as an authoritative source on Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam? Do you think it's free from bias, and that the men who participated in its creation are speaking from their experience and not from bias?

My draft lottery number was 301, and i was not called to serve in the military.
I do however, serve my community, and risk my life in the process...

I routinely operate on people (without any compensation) who are either hepatitits B or hepatitis C positive (and on a few occasions, HIV positive as well). If your familiar with heart surgery, you understand that the blood of these patients is everywhere while you operate.

I would ask how many of your fellow libbies have EVER done anything for someone else, with absolutely no benefit to yourself, that puts your life at real risk. I've done this my entire career.

so while i haven't served in the military, i have "risked my life in the service of others"...and unlike Kerry, i didn't get paid for it, i demand a medal, and i don't make a big deal about it.

Let's hear what you have done "in the service of others" that put your life at risk??

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Only one presidential candidate is being called a liar, in regards to his service, by his compatriots and that only fox-news is even looking into the facts shows how incredibly liberally bias the rest of the media is.

Do you think that saying, over and over and over again that the media is liberal (or, as you say, "liberally bias" [sic]) will make it true? I can't believe that notion still has currency. I have seen all three networks, and CNN, play what I regard as cheap hatchet jobs against Sen Kerry and/or Sen Edwards. As far as I'm concerned, the concept of the "liberal media" has them so kowtowed that they are being overconservative to avoid that appearance.

Your own bias tells you that Kerry's "lies" are even a story, when in the grand scheme of things this is a very minor issue. If the media were as liberal as you say, they would be exploring whether President Bush fulfilled his Guard duties, another story that has gotten relatively little real coverage.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

While some were in Nam at the same time and were on boats nearby, none served on his boat.

so when you see some chicken little run t'll the fighting stops only to turn back around and pick up some poor shlub in the water and thus demand a silver star for himself... you're going to tell me what you saw doesn't count, because you where only the one's actually fighting, instead of the guy hightailing it away from conflict?

Only one presidential candidate is being called a liar, in regards to his service, by his compatriots and that only fox-news is even looking into the facts shows how incredibly liberally bias the rest of the media is.

FOX News should be forced to be classified as a 527 organization.

There is no story here. The men making these claims against Kerry are proven liars.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

Let's hear what you have done "in the service of others" that put your life at risk??

I have served in uniform for almost six years, including service in a combat zone in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

Are you implying you "didn't get paid" for being a heart surgeon? I imagine you got paid a lot more than I do to practice law in the military, something I chose to do knowing full well it would limit my compensation sharply compared to what I would make as a civilian. It's admirable that you apparently performed some surgery without compensation, but I'd have to presume that was in the midst of years in which you earned a king's ransom anyway.

I also presume you take all available measures to avoid contracting HIV or hepatitis, and I haven't heard of surgeons getting these diseases - is this something that actually happens? More than 1,000 GIs have died in the last year - how many surgeons have died from communicable illnesses contracted at work?

 

[maluckey]

Don Vito,

Bush's military record has been debated ad-nauseum, and Bush isn't basing his campaign on it.

Kerry isn't supported by our troops as a group, and Bush is......go figure. We military can smell a rat. I would rather someone dodge combat, than risk my life in combat being an idiot as did Kerry. He violated procedures, regulations, and common sense. The commander does NOT leave the vehicle in a hot zone, to chase unarmed mortally wounded wounded enemy behind a hootch and shoot them, then put themselves in for a medal. In any of my old units, he would have been booted to another unit, or possibly disciplined.

The guy is full of S**t, and if he feels a need to lie about his war exploits, he has deeper issues present. I would rather vote for a draft dodger than someone who lied about his war experience. One didn't support the war, and his actions reflected it (Bush), and the other supported the war, then didn't support the war, now supports the war............make up your mind Kerry. Either you did or you didn't.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Don Vito,

Bush's military record has been debated ad-nauseum, and Bush isn't basing his campaign on it.

Kerry isn't supported by our troops as a group, and Bush is......go figure. We military can smell a rat. I would rather someone dodge combat, than risk my life in combat being an idiot as did Kerry. He violated procedures, regulations, and common sense. The commander does NOT leave the vehicle in a hot zone, to chase unarmed mortally wounded wounded enemy behind a hootch and shoot them, then put themselves in for a medal. In any of my old units, he would have been booted to another unit, or possibly disciplined.

The guy is full of S**t, and if he feels a need to lie about his war exploits, he has deeper issues present. I would rather vote for a draft dodger than someone who lied about his war experience. One didn't support the war, and his actions reflected it (Bush), and the other supported the war, then didn't support the war, now supports the war............make up your mind Kerry. Either you did or you didn't.

You can speak only for yourself, not the entire military. As it happens I'm an active-duty GI, and I know a LOT of GIs in the Army and Air Force who support Kerry (I don't have routine contact with sailors or Marines). I believe you've been taken in by the White House's smear campaign against Senator Kerry, but we are each entitled to our opinions.

 

[villager]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Don Vito,

Bush's military record has been debated ad-nauseum, and Bush isn't basing his campaign on it.

Kerry isn't supported by our troops as a group, and Bush is......go figure. We military can smell a rat. I would rather someone dodge combat, than risk my life in combat being an idiot as did Kerry. He violated procedures, regulations, and common sense. The commander does NOT leave the vehicle in a hot zone, to chase unarmed mortally wounded wounded enemy behind a hootch and shoot them, then put themselves in for a medal. In any of my old units, he would have been booted to another unit, or possibly disciplined.

The guy is full of S**t, and if he feels a need to lie about his war exploits, he has deeper issues present. I would rather vote for a draft dodger than someone who lied about his war experience. One didn't support the war, and his actions reflected it (Bush), and the other supported the war, then didn't support the war, now supports the war............make up your mind Kerry. Either you did or you didn't.

If this were all true, then why didn't those same swift boat commanders bring Kerry up on charges. If they saw an officer guilty of dereliction of duty, didn't they have an obligation to charge him at the time and not wait 35 years?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: villager

If this were all true, then why didn't those same swift boat commanders bring Kerry up on charges. If they saw an officer guilty of dereliction of duty, didn't they have an obligation to charge him at the time and not wait 35 years?

Not only didn't they bring him up on charges, they endorsed his award packages.

The thing is, it seems to me the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" are, like many other vets of Vietnam and other conflicts, angry with Sen Kerry for his public criticism of the war upon his return to the States, which is perceived as disloyal. I can honestly understand why they feel the way they do, and I respect that opinion, though I personally respect Sen Kerry for taking a stand against the war, the same way I respect his going in the first place (at the same time VP Cheney, in contrast, was getting 5 deferments, and AG Ashcroft 7 deferments, to avoid going to VN).

What I resent, however, is they way the SBVFT have, in my view, been manipulated and used as political pawns, and the way their statements are being presented in a misleading, misrepresentative way (the layperson who heard they "served with John Kerry" is likely to misunderstand this as meaning they actually were in a position to observe his service, which many weren't, and many of the SBVFT have clearly changed their tunes about Sen Kerry over the years, which makes it clear there is more to this than genuinely aggrieved vets wanting to tell their story). If they want to speak out against his criticism of the war, they have that right, just as I have the right to disagree. I don't think they can, credibility intact, fabricate memories of events that never happened, or offer categorically negative statements about Sen Kerry's service that are directly contradictory to things they've said in the past about the exact same topic.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

HS:

Let's hear about your service history, if you are going to pooh-pooh Senator Kerry's. Have you ever been shot at by enemies of the United States? If you are of Vietnam-era age (as I believe you've said you are), did you volunteer for service in Vietnam, as Senator Kerry did? Have you ever even worn a military uniform? Do you really regard "Unfit for Command" as an authoritative source on Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam? Do you think it's free from bias, and that the men who participated in its creation are speaking from their experience and not from bias?

My draft lottery number was 301, and i was not called to serve in the military.
I do however, serve my community, and risk my life in the process...

I routinely operate on people (without any compensation) who are either hepatitits B or hepatitis C positive (and on a few occasions, HIV positive as well). If your familiar with heart surgery, you understand that the blood of these patients is everywhere while you operate.

I would ask how many of your fellow libbies have EVER done anything for someone else, with absolutely no benefit to yourself, that puts your life at real risk. I've done this my entire career.

so while i haven't served in the military, i have "risked my life in the service of others"...and unlike Kerry, i didn't get paid for it, i demand a medal, and i don't make a big deal about it.

Let's hear what you have done "in the service of others" that put your life at risk??

Priceless. HS, I don't beleive one facet of the online persona you have built. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but your HIV and Hepatitis rant speaks volumes about your 'career choice'. Shill.

 

[Genx87]

Read what? A book written by proven liars? I'll pass

I find it kind of sad and pathetic the lefts personal attacks on these guys. They had the pre-emptive standard attacks going before the book even came out. What easier way to try and limit the damage by calling them a liar?

Now these liars have got Kerry to admit his secret ops operations into Cabodia never happened. If they are proven liars then why cant the Kerry campaign come up with anything concrete to discredit them? Instead you have people calling them liars just for the sake of saying it.

I watched Hannity and Combes a couple of weeks back. Hannity and one of their regular guests got into it. The guy was calling them a liar. When Hannity asked if he was either

A. There
or
B. Read the book

The guy came back with neither. He just read some op/ed pieces and called it quits. Now I would have thought for the guest being a lawyer he would have known to have more proof than somebody elses word.

I havent had a chance to read the book and from the few interviews I have seen the author is very steadfast. Over 200 veterens contributed to the book. I would find it awfully hard to believe this guy got all 200 of them to lie about Kerry.

The easiest way for Kerry to clear up the confusion is to release his military records. But why wont he? I have a feeling if he does it may lend more credibility to the claims.

This is textbook smearing by the left and rather sad to boot. I say have Kerry address the claims and see where it goes. At this point all he has done is lend credence to at least two of their claims. And if Kerry is validating their claims. I find it hard to believe they are "proven" liars.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Sea Lords Operations

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

Let's hear what you have done "in the service of others" that put your life at risk??

I have served in uniform for almost six years, including service in a combat zone in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

Are you implying you "didn't get paid" for being a heart surgeon? I imagine you got paid a lot more than I do to practice law in the military, something I chose to do knowing full well it would limit my compensation sharply compared to what I would make as a civilian. It's admirable that you apparently performed some surgery without compensation, but I'd have to presume that was in the midst of years in which you earned a king's ransom anyway.

I also presume you take all available measures to avoid contracting HIV or hepatitis, and I haven't heard of surgeons getting these diseases - is this something that actually happens? More than 1,000 GIs have died in the last year - how many surgeons have died from communicable illnesses contracted at work?

So how much you get paid is somehow now a factor in whether or not your lifesaving work is worthwhile or not? I'm willing to guess Heartsurgeon spent WAY more time in school and training than you did... working many hours for basically no pay... Saving lives is saving lives.. I have no way of proving what Heartsurgeon says is true, just as I have no proof to show what YOU claim to do/have done is true.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Crimson

So how much you get paid is somehow now a factor in whether or not your lifesaving work is worthwhile or not? I'm willing to guess Heartsurgeon spent WAY more time in school and training than you did... working many hours for basically no pay... Saving lives is saving lives.. I have no way of proving what Heartsurgeon says is true, just as I have no proof to show what YOU claim to do/have done is true.

He was the one who raised the issue of pay, though I do think it's germane to whether his work is primarily "serving the community," as opposed to serving himself. I don't see it as a tremendous self-sacrifice to make $1M/year as a surgeon, though I have great respect for the profession and what it contributes to society.

If he really is a heart surgeon (I have no particular reason to doubt it, though his grammar and spelling are poor for a person who ostensibly has a doctorate), I admire and respect the hard work and training he endured to get to that place. Surgery is a technically and intellectually challenging field, and certainly an important one.

It wasn't my intention to rack and stack my own experience against HS's - he asked. I will say that law school poses its own distinctive challenges, and I found it both challenging and incredibly unpleasant. I'm not really interested in "proving" who I am and what I've done, though I will gladly do so privately if you have some sincere interest in that. I actually have a number of photographs of myself in a deployed environment, in a classified location in the middle east.

 

[heartsurgeon]

I have served in uniform for almost six years, including service in a combat zone in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

Are you implying you "didn't get paid" for being a heart surgeon? I imagine you got paid a lot more than I do to practice law in the military, something I chose to do knowing full well it would limit my compensation sharply compared to what I would make as a civilian. It's admirable that you apparently performed some surgery without compensation, but I'd have to presume that was in the midst of years in which you earned a king's ransom anyway.

I also presume you take all available measures to avoid contracting HIV or hepatitis, and I haven't heard of surgeons getting these diseases - is this something that actually happens? More than 1,000 GIs have died in the last year - how many surgeons have died from communicable illnesses contracted at work?

I commend you for your service to our country.

Yes, surgeons contract Hepatitis B and C and HIV from their patients....and lawyers make darn sure that your career as a surgeon ends if you get infected from a patient.

To summarize, i operate on patients with diseases they can spread to me that are lethal, i don't get paid, i can still get sued for malpractice by these patients, if i get sick from operating on them, a lawyer will make sure my career will end, yep...it's really selfish what i do...

i would counter your question by asking how many military lawyers get killed in the service??

as for earning a "king's ransom"...i believe that Sen. Edwards (tort attorney) earned $100,000,000 in fees by the time he was 40 years old.

That's obscene, and he's Kerry's pick for V.P. (tht's obscene too)

there are about 2000 heart surgeons in the U.S.
what do you think is a fair income for what i do?
every patient i take care of is "life or death"
every patient i operate on can end my career with a malpractice suit.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
yep...it's really selfish what i do...

i would counter your question by asking how many military lawyers get killed in the service??

I don't recall saying what you do is selfish. As I said above, I have great respect for your profession.

In response to your question, JAG deaths are unusual but not unheard of. In fact, an Army JAG and JAG warrant officer were killed in Iraq just last year.

You're wrong in regard to Sen Edwards - even the most extravagant estimates of his wealth are less than $70M (admittedly still a vast amount). I'm not sure I see the relevance of his pay - suffice it to say an O-3 (which I am) is not compensated the same way.

If you like you can look up my pay here.

I don't know what your profession is "worth," or what is a "fair amount" for your job - I don't think in those terms. I don't doubt that you make a vast amount, perhaps even an amount others would consider "obscene." The few doctors I know well make what I consider ridiculously high amounts, but that doesn't imply they haven't earned it - that's not for me to judge.

I don't doubt, for that matter, that you deserve to make a peck of money, but I don't think the world rewards people in direct proportion to what they "deserve," and if risk and "life or death" situations warrant high pay, then you are vastly overpaid compared to any given Marine.

I find your preoccupation with malpractice liability funny. I am not implying anything about the quality of your care, but it's amusing to me that you are implying that you deserve sympathy because your job exposes you to this risk, when I know dozens of young men who routinely risk their lives as combat controllers and in other high-risk military career fields, for less than $25K a year. You'll forgive me if I'm not crying in my India Pale Ale about your malpractice premiums.

 

[alchemize]

I'd give every penny I have to the pediatric heartsurgeon that saved my boy's life.

He was also probably one of the most intense, hard-working, intelligent, focused, dedicated men I've ever met in my life. He truly dedicated his life to his job. I was in that PICU almost 24/7, and I saw him there constantly - he had to be working at least a 90 hour week. There are a lot easier ways for a brilliant man to make lots more money and work less (such as being a tort attorney, or to be an Eq. Opp. Basher, a defense contractor CEO)

They might also be arrogant and have a god-complex, but only because they earned it and are awful damn close to being a God in that room.

Is heartsurgeon really a heartsurgeon? I think so - I seem to remember him and BBD getting into some technical discussions and BBD was convinced.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I'd give every penny I have to the pediatric heartsurgeon that saved my boy's life.

He was also probably one of the most intense, hard-working, intelligent, focused, dedicated men I've ever met in my life. He truly dedicated his life to his job. I was in that PICU almost 24/7, and I saw him there constantly - he had to be working at least a 90 hour week. There are a lot easier ways for a brilliant man to make lots more money and work less (such as being a tort attorney, or to be an Eq. Opp. Basher, a defense contractor CEO)

They might also be arrogant and have a god-complex, but only because they earned it and are awful damn close to being a God in that room.

Is heartsurgeon really a heartsurgeon? I think so - I seem to remember him and BBD getting into some technical discussions and BBD was convinced.

I don't mean to take anything away from surgery as a profession - it is an amazing thing indeed.

Unfortunately, stupefying arrogance seems to be an occupational hazard (as it is with fighter pilots, for example), and I don't know that I've ever met a more imperious, self-absorbed person than any of a handful of surgeons I've dealt with over the years, while working as government counsel, defending med mal allegations. Not surprisingly, my most narcissistic, obnoxious client as a criminal defense attorney was a doctor as well, though not a surgeon. None of that takes away from the abilities or accomplishments of the surgeons involved, but they seldom seem to be a lot of fun to be around.

If anything that tends to make me think HS likely is a surgeon, though I find it a little surprising that a person with a doctorate wouldn't accurately distinguish between "your" and "you're". In all fairness, though, I was raised by two English teachers, so I have an unusually deep-seated preoccupation with the written word.