Anti-Gun nutters arrest student for NRA tee shirt

[fskimospy]

Well, we'll have to disagree. I think many of the posters would be completely reversing their position. And in both cases, I think the question must be asked, why was there even a disruption. It doesn't sound like the student was actually being disruptive until the teacher decided to make a scene of it. Now at that point, the student possibly became disruptive (although it is hard to tell, as we don't have many details; according to the student he was speaking in a calm voice while the teacher was yelling, but it is hard to judge with only one side of the story). However, I think there would be some legitimate concerns for both an NRA t-shirt as well as a gay rights t-shirt. The act of wearing either is not a legitimate disruption to the education environment, and a teacher that turns either in to one should at the least be reprimanded. If the school wants to police clothing to that level, they need to issue uniforms.

If the school has a right to make uniforms it has a right to make things anything up to uniforms as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with barring all politically charged t-shirts.

But yes, without some more authoritative information on this it's impossible to tell who was really at fault. I think you missed my point; the conservatives foaming about this with the current information are morons. I have no doubt that there are liberal minded people who would act similarly moronic if the situation were reversed.

 

[umbrella39]

No gun, just rainbows and a gay rights message (non-explicit).

It would depend on the exact text of the message for a judgement to be made.

But just the words gay pride and a rainbow... no reason to turn that inside out for the same reason no kid wearing straight pride and showing a man and woman at the altar should have to either. I don't for a second expect total freedom of speech in school though... If they got rid of ALL political/social issue t-shirts across the board no issues either... I can see that being a policy many schools might adopt...

If it were just a shirt with the NRA initials on it that's not a problem for the school I'm wagering.

If it were one of the Guns Don't Kill People I Do or:

or

I can see where there might be an issue. I don't think I could have worn either of those two shirts in middle school back in 1980... it was already fairly PC back then where I grew up.

 

[bshole]

If a teacher tells a student to change clothes or turn a shirt inside, that should be the end of the discussion right there. I don't care if the shirt is for legalizing pot, legalizing gay marriage, pro-life, pro-abortion, Van Halen, whatever, etc... The kids are not running the school, the teachers are. If the kid and his parents cannot respect that, they are more than welcome to go to a private school as my children are. They are most certainly not welcome to create such a scene that the cops have to be called. More of my tax dollars down the tubes because some self-important teen thinks he owns the school.

Gawd, give people a free education with my tax dollars and they still gotta be troublemakers.

 

[monovillage]

I send my daughter to a private school and avoid all this nonsense. There are no issues of fashion, clothes as politics, etc. Maybe public schools should consider the same based on all the hand wringing about what kids are wearing to school. Even if not a uniform, rather than specifying what cannot be worn, specify what can be worn. Full length pants/jeans with no tears or holes, solid color shirts with no logos. Problem solved.

But then the exact same posters would be saying that the school is stifling the students creativity.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...rm-dress-school-uniforms-student-s-creativity

The message that this student had on his T-shirt is the problem. It supported the 2nd Amendment and a conservative political group. That's the only real problem the teachers and administrators had with this kids shirt.

 

[mect]

If the school has a right to make uniforms it has a right to make things anything up to uniforms as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with barring all politically charged t-shirts.

But yes, without some more authoritative information on this it's impossible to tell who was really at fault. I think you missed my point; the conservatives foaming about this with the current information are morons. I have no doubt that there are liberal minded people who would act similarly moronic if the situation were reversed.

I think you missed a part of my meaning with respect to my initial comment. As you say, I'm sure there are liberal people who would act similarly if the situations were reversed, and I also think many of the conservative posters here would also be siding with the school if the situation were reversed.

I agree, there is nothing necessarily wrong with barring all politically charged t-shirts (personally opposed to the idea, but it is within the right of the school). My main point is, with so little verifiable information, there was extremely strong confirmation bias in this thread based on posters political leanings. The pro-gun posters exhibited a strong bias towards believing the student, whereas those opposed were inclined to suspicion towards the students (and parents) motives.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

But then the exact same posters would be saying that the school is stifling the students creativity.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...rm-dress-school-uniforms-student-s-creativity

The message that this student had on his T-shirt is the problem. It supported the 2nd Amendment and a conservative political group. That's the only real problem the teachers and administrators had with this kids shirt.

It seems likelier to me that the problem was the fact that the shirt had a gun on it. I expect if the image on the back of the shirt were all that it showed there would not have been a problem.

 

[umbrella39]

The message that this student had on his T-shirt is the problem. It supported the 2nd Amendment and a conservative political group. That's the only real problem the teachers and administrators had with this kids shirt.

Get down off the cross already.

 

[desura]

Given my experience with "activist" conservatives in West Virginia...

Odds are that the kid was disruptive and went out of his way to be disruptive.

Generally, lower down the "educational food chain," you see more provocation in political discussions. Higher up, the conservatives recognize that they're part of a community which will benefit them through life, so they don't act like a-holes.

 

[monovillage]

Get down off the cross already.

How cute, you and Don Vito have coordinated avatars.

 

[umbrella39]

I have no doubt that there are liberal minded people who would act similarly moronic if the situation were reversed.

I agree completely with this... There are people who are always looking for stuff to fuel their faux rage fires...

 

[mect]

It would depend on the exact text of the message for a judgement to be made.

But just the words gay pride and a rainbow... no reason to turn that inside out for the same reason no kid wearing straight pride and showing a man and woman at the altar should have to either. I don't for a second expect total freedom of speech in school though... If they got rid of ALL political/social issue t-shirts across the board no issues either... I can see that being a policy many schools might adopt...

If it were just a shirt with the NRA initials on it that's not a problem for the school I'm wagering.

If it were one of the Guns Don't Kill People I Do or:


I can see where there might be an issue. I don't think I could have worn either of those two shirts in middle school back in 1980... it was already fairly PC back then where I grew up.

But some schools don't allow any type of sexual messages (this is the rational schools have used to prevent gay pride clubs). At least this is the rationale a teacher might use asking a student to reverse the shirt. The question is, regardless of the message of the shirt, should a student be obligated to follow a teachers instructions to reverse it, even if they aren't being disruptive, especially if it is a pretty loose interpretation of the schools dress policy that is motivation for the request?

 

[monovillage]

But some schools don't allow any type of sexual messages (this is the rational schools have used to prevent gay pride clubs). At least this is the rationale a teacher might use asking a student to reverse the shirt. The question is, regardless of the message of the shirt, should a student be obligated to follow a teachers instructions to reverse it, even if they aren't being disruptive, especially if it is a pretty loose interpretation of the schools dress policy that is motivation for the request?

The message that most on the left have been pushing in this thread is that the student should have immediately submitted to authority, done exactly as a teacher said and kept his mouth shut.

Personally it's not a message I agree with in the public school system.

 

[umbrella39]

How cute, you and Don Vito have coordinated avatars.

It's pretty grand ain't it but despite that... and I can't speak for Don... I am not aware of any women willing to be your beard if that is what you are looking for. Sorry

But you have my word that I will always support your life choice and your right to marry another man and get same sex benefits...

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Here's a good read on student free speech rights. If the facts are what they appear to be...then it appears to me that the school violated his rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_speech_(First_Amendment)

The right of free speech is not itself absolute: the Court has consistently upheld regulations as to time, place, and manner of speech, provided that they are "reasonable."[8] In applying this reasonableness test to regulations limiting student expression, the Court has recognized that the age and maturity of students is an important factor to be considered.[9][10]


In the school context, the United States Supreme Court has identified three major relevant considerations:[9]

1. The extent to which the student speech in question poses a substantial threat of disruption (Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Cmty. Sch. Dist.).
2. Whether the speech is offensive to prevailing community standards (Bethel School District v. Fraser).
3. Whether the speech, if allowed as part of a school activity or function, would be contrary to the basic educational mission of the school (Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier).

Each of these considerations has given rise to a separate mode of analysis, and in Morse v. Frederick the Court implied that any one of these may serve as an independent basis for restricting student speech.[9]

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If a teacher tells a student to change clothes or turn a shirt inside, that should be the end of the discussion right there. I don't care if the shirt is for legalizing pot, legalizing gay marriage, pro-life, pro-abortion, Van Halen, whatever, etc... The kids are not running the school, the teachers are. If the kid and his parents cannot respect that, they are more than welcome to go to a private school as my children are. They are most certainly not welcome to create such a scene that the cops have to be called. More of my tax dollars down the tubes because some self-important teen thinks he owns the school.

Gawd, give people a free education with my tax dollars and they still gotta be troublemakers.

Or if they wear black armbands in protest of a war.

 

[bshole]

The message that most on the left have been pushing in this thread is that the student should have immediately submitted to authority, done exactly as a teacher said and kept his mouth shut.

That was what I was always taught. Kids have changed though. My wife is a a public school teacher and it has become a quite dangerous workplace. Kids have absolutely no respect for teachers. At her school, they have 300 lb security guys on every floor. When the kids give her trouble, she does not engage them (they are generally much bigger than her) she goes to security. I couldn't imagine my children attending a school were open defiance of teachers was tolerated. That is the reason they go to private school. You get what you pay for. If you send your children to a school populated by families who did not pay a dime for their free entitlement, they will be surrounded with by children who have a sense of entitlement. To children who don't think the rules apply them. A confrontational atmosphere in which learning and education have little chance to occur. The message on the kids T-shirt is immaterial. What is relevant is the kids utter and complete contempt for those in authority, to the point where it disrupted the learning process and ended in the police being called. A 14 year old? Really?

For the record, this girl was nearly as bad as that boy!!!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...school-suspends-student-for-being-pro-choice/

She was suspended because she wore a pro-choice sticker and refused to take it off. In her defense, she went home without the police being called.

I personally think public school students should be forced to wear uniforms (that they pay for themselves). We have better things to worry about than a bunch of entitled kids wanting to express their individuality by defying authority.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned earlier in the thread. There's a ton of case law concerning dress codes & slogans printed on t-shirts. To summarize many of the cases, if t-shirts with slogans are allowed, then you cannot ban certain t-shirts unless what's on them creates a disturbance or otherwise interferes with the educational process. Plenty of suits have been won & lost.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned earlier in the thread. There's a ton of case law concerning dress codes & slogans printed on t-shirts. To summarize many of the cases, if t-shirts with slogans are allowed, then you cannot ban certain t-shirts unless what's on them creates a disturbance or otherwise interferes with the educational process. Plenty of suits have been won & lost.

If anyone can find the specific dress code of that school it would be awesome.

 

[Moonbeam]

I send my daughter to a private school and avoid all this nonsense. There are no issues of fashion, clothes as politics, etc. Maybe public schools should consider the same based on all the hand wringing about what kids are wearing to school. Even if not a uniform, rather than specifying what cannot be worn, specify what can be worn. Full length pants/jeans with no tears or holes, solid color shirts with no logos. Problem solved.

All these problems are the product of unresolved self hate. Until you cure that, a dress code is just like a ban on weapons, it will fix nothing that is at the core of the problem. The problem will exist and manifest in some other area or in some other form. It is only through self respect that one has any real respect for others. It is only self respect that ends fear and every manner of other immature emotional need.

 

[Moonbeam]

Why do you respond to his drivel?

His thought processes and avatar are perfectly matched.

They certainly are, there to reflect what you see when you project your self onto me. So come to my arms now my beamish boy, we have a Jabberwock to slay.

 

[thraashman]

That was what I was always taught. Kids have changed though. My wife is a a public school teacher and it has become a quite dangerous workplace. Kids have absolutely no respect for teachers. At her school, they have 300 lb security guys on every floor. When the kids give her trouble, she does not engage them (they are generally much bigger than her) she goes to security. I couldn't imagine my children attending a school were open defiance of teachers was tolerated. That is the reason they go to private school. You get what you pay for. If you send your children to a school populated by families who did not pay a dime for their free entitlement, they will be surrounded with by children who have a sense of entitlement. To children who don't think the rules apply them. A confrontational atmosphere in which learning and education have little chance to occur. The message on the kids T-shirt is immaterial. What is relevant is the kids utter and complete contempt for those in authority, to the point where it disrupted the learning process and ended in the police being called. A 14 year old? Really?

For the record, this girl was nearly as bad as that boy!!!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...school-suspends-student-for-being-pro-choice/

She was suspended because she wore a pro-choice sticker and refused to take it off. In her defense, she went home without the police being called.

I personally think public school students should be forced to wear uniforms (that they pay for themselves). We have better things to worry about than a bunch of entitled kids wanting to express their individuality by defying authority.

In fairness to the girl in your link, she was only displaying a political message that was in opposition to a political message the school was already allowing. She did not create a scene. From the link it appears the students doing the pro-life message had actually asked permission prior and because this girl had not hers constituted a dress code violation. When she was asked to remove the tape or go home, she chose to go home and did not cause a scene like the NRA boy. So even though I approve of her response to the silent protest with a counter silent protest, the school was in the right.

Something the NRA boy and his equally delusional supporters need to accept is that gun imagery has for some time now been considered a banned concept at schools. Pretty much since Columbine, anything gun related has generally fallen under schools zero tolerance policy. This student was cut leeway in that he was given the option of simply turning his shirt inside out but he chose to make a big fuss.

 

[monovillage]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned earlier in the thread. There's a ton of case law concerning dress codes & slogans printed on t-shirts. To summarize many of the cases, if t-shirts with slogans are allowed, then you cannot ban certain t-shirts unless what's on them creates a disturbance or otherwise interferes with the educational process. Plenty of suits have been won & lost.

Is it common practice to call the police before you call the parents? Is it common practice to have police question and order students around without notification of a parent or guardian? Is it common practice to have the police arrest a student for causing a scene?

 

[JulesMaximus]

What 13 year old kid wears an NRA t-shirt? I'd bet his idiot father is the one who put him up to this.

 

[fskimospy]

Is it common practice to call the police before you call the parents? Is it common practice to have police question and order students around without notification of a parent or guardian? Is it common practice to have the police arrest a student for causing a scene?

If a student is flipping out and being super disruptive? The answer to all three is absolutely yes. I mean really? You thought they stop everything and call the parents first?

 

[monovillage]

If a student is flipping out and being super disruptive? The answer to all three is absolutely yes. I mean really? You thought they stop everything and call the parents first?

This student wasn't being any of those according to the story.