Another 'vaping is bad for you' article

[darkswordsman17]

YES IT IS.

Because chewing gum, candy etc. can (and often does!) AS WELL contain *known* carcinogens, just mentioning aspartame and whatever sweeteners, coloring and other chemicals which are often in gum (and many other things we consume(

Do you think that chewing gum with an artificial sweetener, food coloring etc. is "healthier" than vaping? If you say my comparison is not justified you would have to show that a) those ingredients in gum, candy etc. are not having any adverse health effects and b) those or similar ingredients in vape are "much more unsafe" as compared to when they are in, say, gum.

I am not blindly arguing because I have a bias as a vaper. I am saying this since the logic why chewing gum that contains sweeteners, artificial colors etc. should be "healthier" than vaping entirely eludes me!

Not sure if serious...

How does the fact that specifically the act of vaporizing that stuff is what is the issue escape you? That's the entire point is finding out how things that are generally fine in typical amounts are showing they're much more harmful when vaporized and inhaled.

I have no doubt that you can get some cancers from excessively chewing gum, but I'm guessing it will be in amounts so excessive that you'd probably break your jaw and grind your teeth to dust before you'd reach those levels.

And that again is part of the rub with vaping is that a lot of people are overindulging on it because they believe it is safe. There absolutely has been a change in that early on there was a lot of claims about it being totally safe, and when that was shown to be total bullshit suddenly the argument became "yeah well cigarettes are worse!" like that's any sort of legitimate argument.

If vaping is helping you cut back on smoking that's great, but this ultra defensive reaction when vaping is turning out to have plenty of issues of its own needs to stop.

And pointing out how much other things have shown similar issues doesn't magically make yours harmless. Is it bullshit hypocrisy that people brag about and discuss drinking (which by the way also has a clear connection with cancer rates) but condemn vaping? Absolutely. And if you're someone who doesn't care and just wants to enjoy the mild toxicological effects of whatever vice you have, then by all means, but then actually do that instead of getting pissy when people discuss real scientific study showing the negative aspects of it.

 

[Raduque]

I don't vape. Never will. I've smoke maybe 3 cigarettes in my entire life. Don't much care for it.

I don't like heavy smokers because of the smell.

I can't fucking stand vapers because of their obnoxiousness. They walk around with that stupid fucking pen sticking out of their mouth, blowing smoke everywhere, including places you can't smoke cigarettes. Blowing smoke on people, "oh it's ok, it's completely safe, bro", and the fruity smells are stupid. Stumble upon a group of vapers and it smells like a fruit salad was dumped on your head. It's just completely obnoxious.

The "We get it, you vape." meme exists for a reason.

 

[destrekor]

I don't vape. Never will. I've smoke maybe 3 cigarettes in my entire life. Don't much care for it.

I don't like heavy smokers because of the smell.

I can't fucking stand vapers because of their obnoxiousness. They walk around with that stupid fucking pen sticking out of their mouth, blowing smoke everywhere, including places you can't smoke cigarettes. Blowing smoke on people, "oh it's ok, it's completely safe, bro", and the fruity smells are stupid. Stumble upon a group of vapers and it smells like a fruit salad was dumped on your head. It's just completely obnoxious.

The "We get it, you vape." meme exists for a reason.

Meh, I only vape where you can smoke. I don't care to be the obnoxious type and try to blow it with the wind away from other people.

I also really love my mocha juice. Seems to get a ton of complements when people do smell it.

 

[desura]

I just don't see the point of it aside from people using it as a placebo for eventually quitting cigarette smoking.

Although, Nicotine is supposedly better than Caffeine for the body in terms of energy and alertness? Nicotine isolated isn't harmful, it's the other crap in cigarettes that causes cancer.

 

[Imp]

I don't care about vaping but I'm suddenly in the mood to buy a 12 pack of cigarettes...

<-- Doesn't smoke.

 

[flexy]

if you are spending that much you are nerding out on it. ive had the same mod/tank/battery (Aspire Nautilus) for almost 2 years. i replace the 1.99 coil every couple of weeks and the 20ml bottle of juices i make i calculated cost me about 2 bucks. each bottle last me about a week.

buy your juice mix online. i get a 1 liter bottle of of 50/50 with 3mg nic from ecigexpress.com for $26.98 and the food grade favors for super cheap.

The Nautilus Mini was/is one of the greatest "atties for MTL" (Mouth to Lung) vaping, like I do and my wife do, but replacing the coils will be expensive and is a pain in the ass. (They start tasting bad after a week of use). This is why I switched to Kayfuns. Make one coil, coils itself last forever, I only make a new one and replace them when I am bored. (Every some months). And every 30ml or so juice I replace the wick.

 

[flexy]

I don't vape. Never will. I've smoke maybe 3 cigarettes in my entire life. Don't much care for it.

I don't like heavy smokers because of the smell.

I can't fucking stand vapers because of their obnoxiousness. They walk around with that stupid fucking pen sticking out of their mouth, blowing smoke everywhere, including places you can't smoke cigarettes. Blowing smoke on people, "oh it's ok, it's completely safe, bro", and the fruity smells are stupid. Stumble upon a group of vapers and it smells like a fruit salad was dumped on your head. It's just completely obnoxious.

The "We get it, you vape." meme exists for a reason.

You want us vapers (and smokers) to take your seriously but I read moronic subjective opinions like "fruity smells are stupid". Wow, you're so convincing...

 

[Puffnstuff]

My youngest son started doing it not so long ago and it's his choice but I see it as a gateway device to actual smoking.

 

[flexy]

I just don't see the point of it aside from people using it as a placebo for eventually quitting cigarette smoking.

Although, Nicotine is supposedly better than Caffeine for the body in terms of energy and alertness? Nicotine isolated isn't harmful, it's the other crap in cigarettes that causes cancer.

Yes Nicotine can be harmful since it is a vasoconstrictant, it CAN lead to heart problems especially in conjunction with caffeine. (So in other words, having your morning coffee and a smoke/vape is NOT "healthy"). And I say that as a pro-vaper, but I am certainly aware about how things can affect your health. However nicotine is not a carcinogen.

 

[flexy]

I just don't see the point of it aside from people using it as a placebo for eventually quitting cigarette smoking.

I am absolutely not denying that there is "no point", it is from a certain point of view "unlogical" and doesn't make sense "to put something in your mouth" and inhale smoke/vape...but we're humans and OFTEN do and enjoy "unlogical" things, actually many things in life we do and enjoy are like this, it's human nature to do "stupid things".

Also, my arguments are purely from the point of view of someone who smoked, I'd never advocate to someone who never smoked to start vaping. Although if I were a parent I'd still feel much better if a kid should start vaping, as opposed to smoking. Smoking fortunately now is seen as uncool. Compare this to some decades back...

 

[flexy]

instead of getting pissy when people discuss real scientific study showing the negative aspects of it.

There had been many reports and tests about the safety of vaping, and THIS and possibly some other recent studies about -dehydes in vaping seem to be an exception to many other tests where no harmful amounts of whatever substances have been found, at least not *conclusively*. (If that was so I am sure many vapers would know).

As I mentioned, I would be an idiot to ignore studies that indeed show that vaping is harmful and, say, that there are significant amounts of -dehydes released and vaped.

THIS cited study however is totally useless for reasons already mentioned many times here, at least not the abstract (missing many details)...I am still trying to find the entire report without having to shell-out $40 for it.

I found a similar study yesterday which fortunately also listed the devices used etc., and from reading it it seemed to confirm that the amt of -dehydes released depends heavily/mostly on the temperatures of the coils. And (as far as I remember) that the amount of -dehydes is still 10x smaller as compared to smoking cigarettes. It can vary heavily based on many factors, like liquids, composition of liquids, temps, age of coil, the device used, single or dual coil etc..etc...

What I DON'T want to do is form an opinion on a study which is done sloppy or under idiotic circumstances, like some studies which have been conducted with gunky/dirty coils...which is entirely pointless since no sane vaper would vape gunky/dirty coils. (Rest assured you KNOW when your coil is baked/gunky since it tastes like shit).

At this point, because I don't have those critical details re: the report the OP posted I cannot take this study as evidence that vaping is harmful. Should I get hold of the complete study (or find more) which CONFIRM significant amount of -dehydes released and vaped, under normal vaping conditions, I will have no problem to admit that vaping is unhealthy....I wouldn't sit here and "defend" vaping if there is clear evidence that it means you'd take-in significant amounts of carcinogens.

 

[DrPizza]

False. The big story about vaping is how it has taken a cigarette industry that was mostly made up of three companies (Philip Morris USA (Altria), R.J. Reynolds (Reynolds American), and Lorillard) and converted into a vaping market that is a cottage industry of thousands of little mom and pop vape shops relying on Chinese parts.

No matter how the vapor industry presents itself the oligopoly of cigarettes were going to attack them as they try to hold onto their power/influence/marketshare. To admit fault only gives an opening for those in the industry to use bought and paid for politicians to add burdensome regulations to halt the growth of the mom and pop stores in the name of "public safety."

The vaping industry tries to paint itself as completely harmless. There are posts in this thread doing such, saying that the amount of various chemicals is less than the background amount. If they'd just point out that generations of evidence show that second hand smoke is harmful, but less harmful than smoking cigarettes - dose is important, and vaping has a much smaller dose than even second hand smoke, there'd be nothing the cigarette industry could do. But, they want to be recognized as completely harmless so that they can't be regulated. Fuck them. I don't want to be standing around people blowing clouds of stinky fumes on me, saying "don't worry, vaping is harmless, bro." They can go outside to vape, just like the smokers. If they're doing it to stop smoking, then having the same schedule as when they smoked should be just fine.

 

[Chaotic42]

The vaping industry tries to paint itself as completely harmless. There are posts in this thread doing such, saying that the amount of various chemicals is less than the background amount. If they'd just point out that generations of evidence show that second hand smoke is harmful, but less harmful than smoking cigarettes - dose is important, and vaping has a much smaller dose than even second hand smoke, there'd be nothing the cigarette industry could do. But, they want to be recognized as completely harmless so that they can't be regulated. Fuck them. I don't want to be standing around people blowing clouds of stinky fumes on me, saying "don't worry, vaping is harmless, bro." They can go outside to vape, just like the smokers. If they're doing it to stop smoking, then having the same schedule as when they smoked should be just fine.

Agreed. I've been in classes and offices where people vape. It was like living in a citrus-scented cloud. Just go do it outside and we'll be cool.

 

[destrekor]

Agreed. I've been in classes and offices where people vape. It was like living in a citrus-scented cloud. Just go do it outside and we'll be cool.

I'm a vaper and I wholeheartedly agree.

Quite a few unfortunately stick so strongly to the harmless concept and don't give two shits about what other people think.

I'll vape at home and in my office, but I, like many respectful vapers, do try very hard to not expose others to unnecessary "second-hand vapor."

In the community, it is actually frowned upon to behave like that. Those are the vape-bros. But the good vape community actually stresses following vape protocol.

I remember a reddit thread recently that had a lot of people agreeing with the suspension of a school bus driver who vaped on the bus. There were a few dissenters, but overwhelmingly the community found it disrespectful and clearly in violation of the well-known policy, and thus got what he deserved.

Those that vape in bars and restaurants are actually not the majority - they are the assholes who are ruining it for everyone else.

Unless you know how everyone around you feels about it, don't presume that they don't care if you fill the air with your vapor.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm a vaper and I wholeheartedly agree.

Quite a few unfortunately stick so strongly to the harmless concept and don't give two shits about what other people think.

I'll vape at home and in my office, but I, like many respectful vapers, do try very hard to not expose others to unnecessary "second-hand vapor."

In the community, it is actually frowned upon to behave like that. Those are the vape-bros. But the good vape community actually stresses following vape protocol.

I remember a reddit thread recently that had a lot of people agreeing with the suspension of a school bus driver who vaped on the bus. There were a few dissenters, but overwhelmingly the community found it disrespectful and clearly in violation of the well-known policy, and thus got what he deserved.

Those that vape in bars and restaurants are actually not the majority - they are the assholes who are ruining it for everyone else.

Unless you know how everyone around you feels about it, don't presume that they don't care if you fill the air with your vapor.

:thumbsup:
I've found that it seems to only be a minority in the vaping community who are asshats. They think they look really cool to be blowing huuuuge clouds. They don't.

 

[flexy]

I've never understood the "sub-ohmers" and cloud chasing crowd who do "direct lung hits". I vape on low wattages "mouth to lung" and need a very tight airflow, like sucking on a straw.

Best attys for this, STILL the old "Kayfun Lite V2+" (when wicked properly) also Kayfun Mini V3. The new Kayfun V5, even with the "MTL Kit" has somewhat muted flavour for MTL vapers because of the larger chamber.

 

[sourceninja]

...

 

[destrekor]

I've never understood the "sub-ohmers" and cloud chasing crowd who do "direct lung hits". I vape on low wattages "mouth to lung" and need a very tight airflow, like sucking on a straw.

Best attys for this, STILL the old "Kayfun Lite V2+" (when wicked properly) also Kayfun Mini V3. The new Kayfun V5, even with the "MTL Kit" has somewhat muted flavour for MTL vapers because of the larger chamber.

I've really enjoyed sub-ohm setups.

Not a huge fan of the Nautilus-based Kabuki tank I've got - too focused on MTL and flavor seems very muted compared to sub-ohming, even though this tank is supposed to have ridiculous flavor. I guess, compared to other high-ohm tanks, that may be true, but sub-ohm is a whole different world.

It's nice to have it though, I keep it on my Provari and use it at like 12 watts. Single 18650 battery tube mod, and at that level it lasts forever.
I use my sub-ohm tank and RDA on my Sigelei 213, typically around 70w but by current RDA build seems to require 90-120w to really get cooking from a cold state. I made an alien coil out of kanthal, so it's not the fastest to heat up. I'll probably just make a basic clapton soon.

edit:
I guess a note that I must make regarding flavor, is that I use max VG, and that brings up another point on the Kabuki: it gets choked after a few successive hits. It really needs more PG to help the wicks absorb faster, and PG brings out flavor, whereas Max VG tends to be all about clouds.
But I want to avoid PG for numerous reasons.

 

[OutHouse]

It's my understanding that the new rules going into effect this month basically make it almost impossible to keep tobacco products on the market that came into existence after 2007 anyways. So dangerous or not, it's about to get very hard to find or very expensive.

how the ignorant idiots in government are throwing in vaping as a tobacco product is beyond stupid. but hey lets keep selling camel, marlboro and newport

 

[sourceninja]

...

 

[midwestfisherman]

I am a vaper but I have no reason to be biased.

This study doesn't help me form an opinion.

* We can assume that formaldehyde is in many common household items, it can even be "sweat out" by glue that's used in cheap furniture.

I have not one idea about "safe" or "normal" levels of formaldehyde, so those numbers don't tell me ANYTHING about the safety of vaping.

* They refer to that higher voltages create more toxins and also refer to baked coils. This is clear, when you have a "baked coil" you can already TASTE that what you vape can for sure not be "healthy". It tastes like shit, so to speak.

Those numbers don't say whether the measured levels were on new, clean coils or old, baked coils. (I have read that some researchers did studies actually with gunky, baked coils to write something some abstruse numbers of formaldehyde etc. levels...except that no sane vaper is vaping on old, baked coils)

* He mentions that higher voltage releases more toxins, this makes total sense.

BUT it's not about the voltage per-se but the temperature of the coil and the liquid. Their information about voltages is useless because we dont know what device they used at what ohms/resistance.

For example, for an atty that uses an 1.5 Ohms coil and when you vape at about 15W like I do, you use about 4.8-4.9V to get to this wattage.

With a subohm atty (0.5 Ohms), at the same voltage of 4.8V you would get 46W.

The latter would (correct me if I am wrong) have a MUCH higher coil temp...it also produces much hotter vape and more intensive flavor (as compared to not-sub ohm vaping)..so we can assume also higher levels of harmful stuff. ...saying the "voltage" they refer to by itself is relatively meaningless.

** (See above) It would have helped a lot if they would have used coil temps instead where they could possibly have measured higher levels of harmful stuff at higher temps....this would be helpful since newer atties/mods have temperature control which allows to keep coils at a set (and thus "safer" temperature.) Even Watts would be more meaningful than their reference to Volts.

TL;DR Cliffs?

 

[Charmonium]

how the ignorant idiots in government are throwing in vaping as a tobacco product is beyond stupid. but hey lets keep selling camel, marlboro and newport

Is the nicotine used in vape juice extracted from tobacco or synthesized from scratch? It's probably cheaper to extract it in which case, that would make it a tobacco product.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Why on earth did you start vaping? Are you stupid?

Why on earth did you start riding a motorcycle? Are you stupid?

Statistically you are far more likely to die or be injured doing the latter.

I must admit if I was choosing my poison it would be motorcycles. I quit smoking about 5 years ago and didn't bother with the vaping. My GF went the vape route and I'm glad she did. I get your point about why would anyone bother with vaping but with all the tasty flavors it is much more appealing than a pack of camels. How the heck did I start smoking in the first place? Tastes like ass.

 

[Raduque]

You want us vapers (and smokers) to take your seriously but I read moronic subjective opinions like "fruity smells are stupid". Wow, you're so convincing...

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm saying that I don't care for any of you, walking around blowing fruity clouds of smoke at people because "it's harmless, bro".

 

[OutHouse]

Is the nicotine used in vape juice extracted from tobacco or synthesized from scratch? It's probably cheaper to extract it in which case, that would make it a tobacco product.

nicotine gum is considered by the FDA as a nicotine replacement therapy (pharmaceutical product) and not a tobacco product. im pretty sure that the nicotine in the NRT's is derived from the tobacco plant.