[Another R/C Thread] Can NE1 explain to me brushless motors for R/C cars
- Thread starter NFS4
- Start date
Why Brushless?
What is the reason machinery manufacturers and users choose brushless over the time-proven DC drive or the now widely accepted vector induction drive/motor systems?
1- Performance: Brushless systems offer the highest available dynamic accuracy of any of the three major types of drive systems.
Dynamic accuracy results in consistent and repeatable machine performance creating less product variation resulting in higher quality product and higher production rates.
Extensive tests were performed on a blow-molding machine of Brush DC versus Brushless and a clear advantage was shown in production performance from the brushless drive system (4).
2 - Size: Brushless motors are the smallest available motors for a given power rating.
The small size fits the requirements for smaller machines taking up less plant floor space, and the lighter weight results in lower shipping cost, easier handling, and lighter machine structure to support the motor, which is usually a substantial part of the mass in many machines (3).
3 - Efficiency: The brushless motor is the most efficient motor technology available today for an industrial application.
This means less heat to get out of the machine, less heat into the manufacturing area, and lower power consumption.
Brushless system efficiencies are typically 2 to 3 percentage points higher than induction vector systems and greater than this against brush DC.
3 Formal tests were conducted by Ontario Hydro (Canada) in a before/after comparison of a machine conversion from brush DC to Brushless DC, in which efficiency improved 13% minimum, and a whopping 78% at 25% speed (7).
4 - Bearing Stress: Unlike AC induction motors 6, particularly large motors 50 or more hp, brushless motors with surface-mounted magnets have very large air gaps and therefore very low stator-rotor capacitive currents.
Large AC motors have substantial difficulty (5) with bearing damage due to current flow from the rotor through the bearing.
Additionally, both brush DC and AC induction motors create very high heat levels in the rotor and much of this heat must be conducted through the shaft and bearings to the stator before being removed by the ambient air.
Brushless motors produce very little rotor heating because there is no electrical current (other than minor eddy-current loss) and no slip in the permanent magnet rotor.
Advancements in magnet technology (reducing cost of magnets), combined with smaller physical size, results in today's brushless motors being less costly to make.
The proliferation of PWM type drives and improvements in manufacturing procedures and economies of scale has created a high performance drive control that costs much less to make than in years past.
This means brushless systems do not necessarily cost more.
In fact, brushless systems may even be less costly that either of the other two primary variable-speed drive technologies in the 20 to 200 hp range.
Brush DC drives still have the cost advantage in the above-200 hp range due to the simple elegance of the controller using SCRs rather than the more costly IGBTs used by both induction vector and brushless.
Motors smaller than 20 hp are made in very high volumes and the induction vector systems, as well as brush DC have the cost advantage in those smaller sizes, where the smaller brushless motor is not enough smaller to make up for the magnet cost.
Who makes large brushless drives today?
Any induction vector drive has the basic power system to run a brushless motor, but brushless motors must be shaft-position commutated and require a different control algorithm (software) than the induction motor.
It is relatively easy to make a standard vector drive run a brushless motor by having a menu choice that selects this different algorithm.
With most manufacturers, their standard drive will run brushless as a menu choice, or EPROM change.
Therefore, virtually all major drive manufacturers make drives today that run PM brushless motors and unlike 10 years ago, there are several manufacturers of large PM brushless motors to choose from.
Summary: Given that efficiency, size, and low maintenance are key issues in drive system selection, brushless motors and drives have enjoyed a growth of use in heretofore "standard" applications where performance at all costs has not been an issue.
What is the reason machinery manufacturers and users choose brushless over the time-proven DC drive or the now widely accepted vector induction drive/motor systems?
1- Performance: Brushless systems offer the highest available dynamic accuracy of any of the three major types of drive systems.
Dynamic accuracy results in consistent and repeatable machine performance creating less product variation resulting in higher quality product and higher production rates.
Extensive tests were performed on a blow-molding machine of Brush DC versus Brushless and a clear advantage was shown in production performance from the brushless drive system (4).
2 - Size: Brushless motors are the smallest available motors for a given power rating.
The small size fits the requirements for smaller machines taking up less plant floor space, and the lighter weight results in lower shipping cost, easier handling, and lighter machine structure to support the motor, which is usually a substantial part of the mass in many machines (3).
3 - Efficiency: The brushless motor is the most efficient motor technology available today for an industrial application.
This means less heat to get out of the machine, less heat into the manufacturing area, and lower power consumption.
Brushless system efficiencies are typically 2 to 3 percentage points higher than induction vector systems and greater than this against brush DC.
3 Formal tests were conducted by Ontario Hydro (Canada) in a before/after comparison of a machine conversion from brush DC to Brushless DC, in which efficiency improved 13% minimum, and a whopping 78% at 25% speed (7).
4 - Bearing Stress: Unlike AC induction motors 6, particularly large motors 50 or more hp, brushless motors with surface-mounted magnets have very large air gaps and therefore very low stator-rotor capacitive currents.
Large AC motors have substantial difficulty (5) with bearing damage due to current flow from the rotor through the bearing.
Additionally, both brush DC and AC induction motors create very high heat levels in the rotor and much of this heat must be conducted through the shaft and bearings to the stator before being removed by the ambient air.
Brushless motors produce very little rotor heating because there is no electrical current (other than minor eddy-current loss) and no slip in the permanent magnet rotor.
Advancements in magnet technology (reducing cost of magnets), combined with smaller physical size, results in today's brushless motors being less costly to make.
The proliferation of PWM type drives and improvements in manufacturing procedures and economies of scale has created a high performance drive control that costs much less to make than in years past.
This means brushless systems do not necessarily cost more.
In fact, brushless systems may even be less costly that either of the other two primary variable-speed drive technologies in the 20 to 200 hp range.
Brush DC drives still have the cost advantage in the above-200 hp range due to the simple elegance of the controller using SCRs rather than the more costly IGBTs used by both induction vector and brushless.
Motors smaller than 20 hp are made in very high volumes and the induction vector systems, as well as brush DC have the cost advantage in those smaller sizes, where the smaller brushless motor is not enough smaller to make up for the magnet cost.
Who makes large brushless drives today?
Any induction vector drive has the basic power system to run a brushless motor, but brushless motors must be shaft-position commutated and require a different control algorithm (software) than the induction motor.
It is relatively easy to make a standard vector drive run a brushless motor by having a menu choice that selects this different algorithm.
With most manufacturers, their standard drive will run brushless as a menu choice, or EPROM change.
Therefore, virtually all major drive manufacturers make drives today that run PM brushless motors and unlike 10 years ago, there are several manufacturers of large PM brushless motors to choose from.
Summary: Given that efficiency, size, and low maintenance are key issues in drive system selection, brushless motors and drives have enjoyed a growth of use in heretofore "standard" applications where performance at all costs has not been an issue.
NutBucket
Lifer
- Aug 30, 2000
- 27,034
- 546
- 126
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,647
- 26
- 91
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
$234 including speed controller:Q:Q
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
$234 including speed controller:Q:Q
Dang that's pretty steep! But I do remember electronic speed controllers cost about $150 back in the day... thats still a lot of money to put in a toy! I think I'll keep the toy I can actually ride on instead of getting an RC car
NutBucket
Lifer
- Aug 30, 2000
- 27,034
- 546
- 126
Correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't bought anything RC in while but a race-quality speed controller is over $100 and a race quality motor is somewhere around $50 or $60. So to me it doesn't seem like that big of a price difference but I wouldn't get that if I just wanted something to play with in the backyard.
Originally posted by: Crazymofo
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
$234 including speed controller:Q:Q
Dang that's pretty steep! But I do remember electronic speed controllers cost about $150 back in the day... thats still a lot of money to put in a toy! I think I'll keep the toy I can actually ride on instead of getting an RC car
Yeah, I'm keeping the wife too instead of getting rid of her for an R/C car.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,647
- 26
- 91
Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: Crazymofo
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
$234 including speed controller:Q:Q
Dang that's pretty steep! But I do remember electronic speed controllers cost about $150 back in the day... thats still a lot of money to put in a toy! I think I'll keep the toy I can actually ride on instead of getting an RC car
Yeah, I'm keeping the wife too instead of getting rid of her for an R/C car.
LOL, took me a sec to get that one
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: Crazymofo
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Go read up on it at Novak's site. I'm sure they'll have plenty to say about it
The way I see it is that eliminating the commutator and brushes does two things. First, it eliminates a major source of resistance of current to the armature windings. Second, it eliminates a physical resistance on the armature turning. Sounds like a good idea to me. Not sure about the price though.
$234 including speed controller:Q:Q
Dang that's pretty steep! But I do remember electronic speed controllers cost about $150 back in the day... thats still a lot of money to put in a toy! I think I'll keep the toy I can actually ride on instead of getting an RC car
Yeah, I'm keeping the wife too instead of getting rid of her for an R/C car.
LOL, took me a sec to get that one
:beer:
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,647
- 26
- 91
MrDudeMan
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 15,069
- 92
- 91
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
NutBucket
Lifer
- Aug 30, 2000
- 27,034
- 546
- 126
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
So what's the difference between the Novak setup and the one you're referring to? got a link?
MrDudeMan
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 15,069
- 92
- 91
Originally posted by: NutBucket
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
edit: novak makes the coreless as well. it is possible that the new one you linked is a different version of the original coreless, just with a different name and a few different specs. i didnt mean to say it was crap, simply not the same as mine and mine had much stiffer specs. ill let you know as soon as i figure this out.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
So what's the difference between the Novak setup and the one you're referring to? got a link?
i thought about not posting at all since i cant provide a link...but i figured i would be better served at least trying to help instead of remaining silent. i saw a guy that had the coreless at a local track, so i went to hobbytown in my area and ordered it. i will look for a link a little later. i cant do it ATM.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,647
- 26
- 91
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
I've heard nothing but good stuff about the Novak SS5800 over at RC Universe (they have a huge R/C forum). Users are getting much higher top speeds with about 4-5 minute extra run time vs a comparable brushed setup.
I just want something that's low maintenance (no working the com, changing brushes, etc.) and gives me long battery life.
MrDudeMan
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 15,069
- 92
- 91
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
I've heard nothing but good stuff about the Novak SS5800 over at RC Universe (they have a huge R/C forum). Users are getting much higher top speeds with about 4-5 minute extra run time vs a comparable brushed setup.
I just want something that's low maintenance (no working the com, changing brushes, etc.) and gives me long battery life.
exactly.
although, sorry to burst your bubble, all motors (if you want them to last) require maintenance. if you dont want to work on it and keep it clean, you shouldnt have purchased anything but a radio shack POS. if you buy a brushless motor system, you are a fuggin idiot if you dont use canned air on it everytime you stop driving it for the day. i am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously NFS4, if you buy this thing, please take care of it.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,647
- 26
- 91
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
heh...i should show you a movie of my monster truck...pwns that mini-t. my monster truck has 4 wheel steering..BOOYA!
anyways, brushless motors usually have a much higher "jump" speed and run longer on the same power compared to a non-brushless. those motors you found are crap compared to the coreless motor system. it comes with an ESC and the motor...its a beast. it requires a 14volt battery and graphite motor mounts (recommended, not 100% necessary) because of the flex. personally, i have a coreless in my e-maxx and i had to get wheelie bars. it is stronger than the 2 motors that came with it. if i take the wheelie bars off, it just rolls over on its back because it takes off so fast.
if you are looking to get speed though, you cant beat nitro. if you are just looking to upgrade your current electric car, then get a coreless motor. if you dont want to spend that much, you can get a motor from the set of 3...cant remember who makes them, but they are called mild, wild, and pro. the wild and the pro are the same price, but the pro offers more performance. they are relatively cheap and dont require a new ESC.
lmk if you have any other questions.
I've heard nothing but good stuff about the Novak SS5800 over at RC Universe (they have a huge R/C forum). Users are getting much higher top speeds with about 4-5 minute extra run time vs a comparable brushed setup.
I just want something that's low maintenance (no working the com, changing brushes, etc.) and gives me long battery life.
exactly.
although, sorry to burst your bubble, all motors (if you want them to last) require maintenance. if you dont want to work on it and keep it clean, you shouldnt have purchased anything but a radio shack POS. if you buy a brushless motor system, you are a fuggin idiot if you dont use canned air on it everytime you stop driving it for the day. i am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously NFS4, if you buy this thing, please take care of it.
Well, you are being rude
I always spray my motors off with compressed air after each run. I'm not dumb. I'm talking about cutting the com, changing brushes, springs, etc. on a brushed setup. I don't want to deal with that crap. I just wanna RUN.
NutBucket
Lifer
- Aug 30, 2000
- 27,034
- 546
- 126
Unless you're racing a "regular" motor will last you a long time. Even if you go with a mild modified it'll last a long time and you can just keep throwing brushes at it. Even with "heavy" use it'll go for like an year at least before you have to do anything to it.
MrDudeMan
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 15,069
- 92
- 91
alright whatever dude. i just wont give you any more info, even though ive been doing this for years and have experience with tons of motor/esc setups. R/C cars have been more than a hobby for me and i take performance and tuning to the extreme. oh and btw, if you are just looking for fun and little to no maintenance, badass motors such as this novak are not for you. do you know anything about the gearing? you are going to chew through pinion and spur gears like no tomorrow, and if you car is good enough for a 2 speed, good luck with plastic gears.
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