Another Malaysian airplane down

[squarecut1]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
- Winston Churchill

Five minutes is too long for that

 

[cytg111]

And here we have it
http://www.firstpost.com/world/flig...s-warring-sides-to-lay-down-arms-1623115.html

Headline
"Flight MH17 Live: Putin calls for peace, urges Ukraine's warring sides to lay down arms"

This is what is going out to the world press right now (Russian press too).
Lets see what comes next from these 'seperatists" ... I dare say nothing. Putin will continue his campaign in Ukraine.

I am worrying that he's building critical mass to go "all in" in ukraine, guns blazing. Hope I am wrong.

 

[Nebor]

I'm struggling to imagine the kind of backwards lunatics that look at a civilian airliner from a third-party nation uninvolved in their conflict, identify it as such, then shoot it down anyway. I feel bad for all the Dutch who lost their lives due to a handful of idiots in Ukraine.

 

[Fern]

This 100%. Also, my friend who usually is up on news like this, told me they actually had deviated around 500 miles of course, which ultimately took them into the warzone area. Wtf? I could see 500 miles off course to avoid that area... but putting yourself into it? Ehhhhhh...I would assume the plane should be on auto pilot at that point... I don't get why it would deviate from an expected course.
-snip-

I've heard reports that the deviation was due to weather. The deviated course was approved.

I've also seen reports that many, many flights were using that same route on a daily basis.

However, about 100 aircraft a day from more than 60 different airlines were seen in the region over the past week. A Singapore Airlines jet from Copenhagen to Singapore was flying within 20 miles of flight MH17 at the time of the crash, according to the FlightRadar24 data. Philip Plantholt, of FlightRadar24, said: "There were for sure commercial aircraft within a 25km radius."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

While some airlines purposefully avoided the area no one, not even the FAA or the UN's International Civil Aviation Organisation, had ruled that area unsafe. It was only the Crimean peninsula which was restricted.

Simply bad luck for Malaysian airlines to be that 1 out of a 100 flying that route on that day to be the one taking the hit.

Fern

 

[Fern]

And here we have it
http://www.firstpost.com/world/flig...s-warring-sides-to-lay-down-arms-1623115.html

Headline
"Flight MH17 Live: Putin calls for peace, urges Ukraine's warring sides to lay down arms"

This is what is going out to the world press right now (Russian press too).
Lets see what comes next from these 'seperatists" ... I dare say nothing. Putin will continue his campaign in Ukraine.

I am worrying that he's building critical mass to go "all in" in ukraine, guns blazing. Hope I am wrong.

I'm beginning to think that is what the West should do: Go into the Ukraine and assist its government in quelling the revolt and bringing that area under control. Clearly, shit over there is OOC now and this is quite likely the perfect excuse/reason to do it.

I think it a very bad thing to let Putin/Russia go in under that guise. Surely the Ukrainian govt wouldn't ask for Russia's assistance. I do think they would ask for ours.

Fern

 

[cytg111]

I'm beginning to think that is what the West should do: Go into the Ukraine and assist its government in quelling the revolt and bringing that area under control.

I totally agree, line up, a united front, quell the uprising and dare Putin to fire the first shot.

But then again, there is two kind of dogs.
Throw a firecracker.
First dog will stand back, perhaps hide behind its master and check out wtf is going on. Second dog will attack the shit out of that firecracker and if possible bring the trophy back to its master.
I know I am the second kind, I also understand it is the stupid kind. So i keep faith in that my leaders know wtf they're doing.

 

[werepossum]

I'm struggling to imagine the kind of backwards lunatics that look at a civilian airliner from a third-party nation uninvolved in their conflict, identify it as such, then shoot it down anyway. I feel bad for all the Dutch who lost their lives due to a handful of idiots in Ukraine.

Judging from their intercepted communications, I think they believed it to be a Ukrainian military plane until they arrived at the crash site.

I totally agree, line up, a united front, quell the uprising and dare Putin to fire the first shot.

But then again, there is two kind of dogs.
Throw a firecracker.
First dog will stand back, perhaps hide behind its master and check out wtf is going on. Second dog will attack the shit out of that firecracker and if possible bring the trophy back to its master.
I know I am the second kind, I also understand it is the stupid kind. So i keep faith in that my leaders know wtf they're doing.

Or to put it a bit differently, we on the Internet have the luxury of indulging our emotions and inclinations knowing there will be no real cost. Leaders potentially responsible for millions of deaths do not have that luxury - an important thing for us all to remember when we're asking why Obama doesn't man up and confront Putin.

 

[davmat787]

the russians will make it look like a plane defect.

Any semi competent investigator will be able to quickly ascertain whether the explosion occurred inside or outside of the aircraft. A missile, for example, will leave puncture wounds from shrapnel that face inward if it exploded near an engine as might a heat seeking type would.

Or maybe a puncture wound from the missile facing inward, and shrapnel wounds facing outward if it exploded within.

TWA800 showed an outward facing explosion around the center fuel tank, which led to the official conclusion. Supposedly shrapnel wound evidence was covered up, no idea if that is true or not, but many witnesses still swear to this day they saw missiles fired from out at sea converge on the doomed 747 right before the explosion. And that the FBI stole evidence from the hanger one night that would have proven this.

Whatever truly happened, and I am no conspiracy nut, it is interesting that the FBI showed up by the dozens right away, when the NTSB has jurisdiction and would call in the FBI only when a criminal act is suspected.

 

[blankslate]

they were on RT yesterday

So that's why the conspiracy mongers have been rather quiet. Too bad they're kind of fascinating in the way a multi-car pileup accident is.

Also how does Fox News reconcile their contributor's man-love for Putin if it turns out the investigation ends up implicating the Russian backed rebels is the early information seems to be indicating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMj_BNFZ6I&t=0m27s





....

 

[MomentsofSanity]

So that's why the conspiracy mongers have been rather quiet. Too bad they're kind of fascinating in the way a multi-car pileup accident is.

Also how does Fox News reconcile their contributor's man-love for Putin if it turns out the investigation ends up implicating the Russian backed rebels is the early information seems to be indicating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMj_BNFZ6I&t=0m27s





....

They don't need to. They've already spent significant time blaming Obama for it throughout the day.

 

[Zorkorist]

How about blaming Government? Or recognizing that Government didn't help these people at all.

-John

 

[sportage]

Obama's weak, as usual.


The nukes should already have been in the air by now.

I agree, Obama does have leadership issues.
But we haven't had a real leader or communicator of the people for many past presidents now, when it comes to motivating Americans. GW was a total joke, Reagan read from a script as if he were staring in a movie, Clinton was pretty bad during the 1992 floods, Carter pissed people off, Nixon really pissed people off, and Ford? You have to go back to Kennedy and more so Roosevelt for presidents that were masterful communicating with the people.

I get irritated with Obama too.
He doesn't act like a president, he acts like some bystander just giving his opinion no one really cares about. But that's just the way he is. Certainly no Roosevelt. Or even close.

But for remembering history, I'm getting a little pissed myself at this demonizing of Putin and others over this airline tragedy.
It's not like America has never killed innocent people during war and conflict.
We have plenty of innocent blood on our hands as well.
Maybe we haven't shot down a plane with 300 civilians, but we've bombed plenty of hospitals and schools killing innocent people during Vietnam as well as with more recent wars.
And yes, our very own leaders tried to cover that up.

Remember the film FRIENDLY FIRE with carol Burnett?
An American soldier from Iowa killed in Vietnam by American forces.
Then the real outrage, our government attempting to cover up that tragedy?

Sure this downing of a civilian airplane is tragic.
And Putin should be called out on it.
But this going on and on by our leaders and media over the outrage when our very own leaders and government have no less blood on their very hands when it comes to innocent victims of war. Then followed by coverup.
Lets not pretend this is the first time tragedy has happened.
It happens to the best if us as well the worst of us.
That is why we use the term casualties of war.
Applies to both sides equally.

 

[feralkid]

snip

Sonikku was joking.

 

[MongGrel]

I agree, Obama does have leadership issues.
But we haven't had a real leader or communicator of the people for many past presidents now, when it comes to motivating Americans. GW was a total joke, Reagan read from a script as if he were staring in a movie, Clinton was pretty bad during the 1992 floods, Carter pissed people off, Nixon really pissed people off, and Ford? You have to go back to Kennedy and more so Roosevelt for presidents that were masterful communicating with the people.

I get irritated with Obama too.
He doesn't act like a president, he acts like some bystander just giving his opinion no one really cares about. But that's just the way he is. Certainly no Roosevelt. Or even close.

But for remembering history, I'm getting a little pissed myself at this demonizing of Putin and others over this airline tragedy.
It's not like America has never killed innocent people during war and conflict.
We have plenty of innocent blood on our hands as well.
Maybe we haven't shot down a plane with 300 civilians, but we've bombed plenty of hospitals and schools killing innocent people during Vietnam as well as with more recent wars.
And yes, our very own leaders tried to cover that up.

Remember the film FRIENDLY FIRE with carol Burnett?
An American soldier from Iowa killed in Vietnam by American forces.
Then the real outrage, our government attempting to cover up that tragedy?

Sure this downing of a civilian airplane is tragic.
And Putin should be called out on it.
But this going on and on by our leaders and media over the outrage when our very own leaders and government have no less blood on their very hands when it comes to innocent victims of war. Then followed by coverup.
Lets not pretend this is the first time tragedy has happened.
It happens to the best if us as well the worst of us.
That is why we use the term casualties of war.
Applies to both sides equally.

*Slowly bangs head on his keyboard*

 

[sportage]

Sonikku was joking.

I know ... But it was an opening.
Play the game...

(Sorry, forgot the wink)

 

[Pneumothorax]

Five minutes is too long for that

Yeah 70 years ago it took 5 minutes, now 5 seconds.

 

[theeedude]

I've heard reports that the deviation was due to weather. The deviated course was approved.

I've also seen reports that many, many flights were using that same route on a daily basis.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

While some airlines purposefully avoided the area no one, not even the FAA or the UN's International Civil Aviation Organisation, had ruled that area unsafe. It was only the Crimean peninsula which was restricted.

Simply bad luck for Malaysian airlines to be that 1 out of a 100 flying that route on that day to be the one taking the hit.

Fern

FAA and ICAO were more interested in making a political point about Crimea, which is at peace and perfectly safe to fly over, than actual air safety over an active war area where multiple planes have been shut down with high range SAMs in preceding days.
The AN-26 that was shut down before was flying at 20,000 feet, which is out of the range of man portable missile systems, and can only be done with a high altitude missile. So they should have known that shooting down a plane at high altitude could happen, because it has been happening. They still allowed planes to fly at higher than 30,000 feet, even though they should have known that there was capability and intent to shoot down planes at all altitudes.
Instead, they only banned air flights over Crimea to punish it for joining Russia, because they didn't want to acknowledge the reality that Russian and not Ukrainian air traffic control is in charge of the sky over Crimea now. Of course if you look on the map, if you ban flights over Crimea, then the closest detour is over Donetsk.
These guys should decide what their mission is, air safety or geopolitics, and let us know.

 

[Brainonska511]

FAA and ICAO were more interested in making a political point about Crimea, which is at peace and perfectly safe to fly over, than actual air safety over an active war area where multiple planes have been shut down with high range SAMs in preceding days.
The AN-26 that was shut down before was flying at 20,000 feet, which is out of the range of man portable missile systems, and can only be done with a high altitude missile. So they should have known that shooting down a plane at high altitude could happen, because it has been happening. They still allowed planes to fly at higher than 30,000 feet, even though they should have known that there was capability and intent to shoot down planes at all altitudes.
Instead, they only banned air flights over Crimea to punish it for joining Russia, because they didn't want to acknowledge the reality that Russian and not Ukrainian air traffic control is in charge of the sky over Crimea now. Of course if you look on the map, if you ban flights over Crimea, then the closest detour is over Donetsk.
These guys should decide what their mission is, air safety or geopolitics, and let us know.

Or they banned air travel over Crimea because it was well known that it was Russians in control of the peninsula, who actually have high altitude AA systems. It was not well known that the Russians had decided to supply military grade AA systems to the rebels.

 

[theeedude]

Or they banned air travel over Crimea because it was well known that it was Russians in control of the peninsula, who actually have high altitude AA systems. It was not well known that the Russians had decided to supply military grade AA systems to the rebels.

They said in the bulletin why they banned it, because they didn't want to recognize Russian air traffic control. And it was well known that rebels captured a Ukrainian air defense base that had these weapon systems, and those systems had been used to shoot down Ukrainian military planes.

 

[cabri]

They said in the bulletin why they banned it, because they didn't want to recognize Russian air traffic control. And it was well known that rebels captured a Ukrainian air defense base that had these weapon systems, and those systems had been used to shoot down Ukrainian military planes.

the bolded is supposition.

Russia will insist that this is the case; however, they will be on the hot seat because they "encourage" the separatists.

Also, do the separatists have the knowledge to use this AA system without training from Russia?

Either situation, is leaving egg on Russia's face w/ respect to the world community.

 

[theeedude]

the bolded is supposition.

Russia will insist that this is the case; however, they will be on the hot seat because they "encourage" the separatists.

Also, do the separatists have the knowledge to use this AA system without training from Russia?

Either situation, is leaving egg on Russia's face w/ respect to the world community.

It's not a supposition that missiles have been used to shoot down Ukrainian military transport plane at a high altitude in the days before. So there was sufficient information for the aviation authorities to issue a notice to airmen to avoid this area. But I guess they wanted to play geopolitics and pretend that everything was under control in Ukraine and only Russian held Crimea was unsafe instead of doing their job.

 

[K1052]

It's not a supposition that missiles have been used to shoot down Ukrainian military transport plane at a high altitude in the days before. So there was sufficient information for the aviation authorities to issue a notice to airmen to avoid this area. But I guess they wanted to play geopolitics and pretend that everything was under control in Ukraine and only Russian held Crimea was unsafe instead of doing their job.

Indications are now that Russia supplied systems to the separatists and have now moved them back to Russia. I am also somewhat skeptical that the separatists could operate a number of relatively advanced weapons systems without considerable direct support from clandestine Russian agencies.

If Putin fails to act in the very near future the political situation is going to deteriorate rapidly. He's got a bunch of dead EU citizens on his doorstep quite potentially put there by a weapon he provided.

 

[Pneumothorax]

I'm beginning to think that is what the West should do: Go into the Ukraine and assist its government in quelling the revolt and bringing that area under control. Clearly, shit over there is OOC now and this is quite likely the perfect excuse/reason to do it.

I think it a very bad thing to let Putin/Russia go in under that guise. Surely the Ukrainian govt wouldn't ask for Russia's assistance. I do think they would ask for ours.

Fern

Or at least heavily armed escort (including APC's/MBT's) going with an international team of investigators and cleanup crews so the bodies can have properly taken care of with dignity. As of now, the bodies are being used as maggot and wild dog food. Considering that pretty much the whole western world all have pussies for leaders (even the Dutch-who've lost the most-have a wimp of a PM) I don't see this happening...

 

[Dude111]

Wouldn't it be scary weird if it was the original missing plane .......

Thats what I am thinking!!

 

[sportage]

I agree, Obama does have leadership issues.
But we haven't had a real leader or communicator of the people for many past presidents now, when it comes to motivating Americans. GW was a total joke, Reagan read from a script as if he were staring in a movie, Clinton was pretty bad during the 1992 floods, Carter pissed people off, Nixon really pissed people off, and Ford? You have to go back to Kennedy and more so Roosevelt for presidents that were masterful communicating with the people.

I get irritated with Obama too.
He doesn't act like a president, he acts like some bystander just giving his opinion no one really cares about. But that's just the way he is. Certainly no Roosevelt. Or even close.

But for remembering history, I'm getting a little pissed myself at this demonizing of Putin and others over this airline tragedy.
It's not like America has never killed innocent people during war and conflict.
We have plenty of innocent blood on our hands as well.
Maybe we haven't shot down a plane with 300 civilians, but we've bombed plenty of hospitals and schools killing innocent people during Vietnam as well as with more recent wars.
And yes, our very own leaders tried to cover that up.

Remember the film FRIENDLY FIRE with carol Burnett?
An American soldier from Iowa killed in Vietnam by American forces.
Then the real outrage, our government attempting to cover up that tragedy?

Sure this downing of a civilian airplane is tragic.
And Putin should be called out on it.
But this going on and on by our leaders and media over the outrage when our very own leaders and government have no less blood on their very hands when it comes to innocent victims of war. Then followed by coverup.
Lets not pretend this is the first time tragedy has happened.
It happens to the best if us as well the worst of us.
That is why we use the term casualties of war.
Applies to both sides equally.

Re-considering, this was one of my most ignorant posts ever.
Sorry kids.
(hiding head under desk)