Another Federal Judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional

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xenolith

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2000
1,588
0
76
How about a law that forces everyone to buy and wear a hat in the summer months?

How about a law that forces everyone to buy a cell phone in the event of emergencies?

Where do you draw the line?
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,649
2,925
136
Well thats a matter of interpretation, and I and many others believe he is wrong.

I guess you also feel it's unconstitutional to mandate income taxes, or social security taxes, or medicare taxes? The law doesn't force anyone to buy insurance, it just levies a tax on those who don't have it. To claim the law is unconstitutional is claiming the federal government doesn't have the authority to levy a new tax.

Except this isn't a tax. A tax is an additional cost to an activity or revenue generation used to fund an activity. This is specifically an added cost to an inactivity or revenue generation used to prevent an inactivity.

If this law had modeled itself as a tax every taxpayer would be forced to pay the "penalty" amount. The revenue generated would be aggregated and used to drive down the cost of insurance for everyone. Then, if you actually wanted insurance you could choose to purchase it at the reduced rate.

As it was passed the government said "You have to do this or else" and the revenue from the 'or else' does not go into lowering costs. It's nothing more than an unconstitutional grab of power using the Commerce Clause.

Need additional proof? Just look at the insurance industry in all other matters; it's regulated by the States using a State-sponsored association, the National Association of Insurance Commissioners.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Well thats a matter of interpretation, and I and many others believe he is wrong.

I guess you also feel it's unconstitutional to mandate income taxes, or social security taxes, or medicare taxes? The law doesn't force anyone to buy insurance, it just levies a tax on those who don't have it. To claim the law is unconstitutional is claiming the federal government doesn't have the authority to levy a new tax.

Loki summed it up nicely. If you're going to attempt to justify every single new law that Congress wants or wishes to pass as being justified by the 16th amendment, commerce clause, or the "General Welfare" clause, you're effectively giving them the ability to pass anything they want. You might like that idea, but I don't. And the judge's argument was that using the commerce clause to justify this law was not going to float, because you're effectively trying to regulate someone's "inactivity" rather than their commerical activity. Read the highlights of his decision.

EDIT: Nice post, sacto.

Judge Vinson said:
"It would be a radical departure from existing case law to hold that Congress can regulate inactivity under the Commerce Clause," he said. If that were true, he said, "it is not hyperbolizing to suggest that Congress could do almost anything it wanted." If Congress could reach so broadly, "we would have a Constitution in name only," he said."
 
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xenolith

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2000
1,588
0
76
Well thats a matter of interpretation, and I and many others believe he is wrong.

I guess you also feel it's unconstitutional to mandate income taxes, or social security taxes, or medicare taxes? The law doesn't force anyone to buy insurance, it just levies a tax on those who don't have it. To claim the law is unconstitutional is claiming the federal government doesn't have the authority to levy a new tax.

And then follow that through... what happens if they refuse to pay the tax?

Throw them in jail? You have be charged and tried with a federal crime first.

That means we have to build more courts and prisons to try and jail more productive citizens.

Sometimes you have to see through the trees to see the forest.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
I wonder how much the insurance companies are paying for this little stunt?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I wonder how much the insurance companies are paying for this little stunt?
eh? I'd imagine insurance companies are chomping at the bit for every single citizen to be legally compelled to purchase their broken product.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
I wonder how much the insurance companies are paying for this little stunt?

It's funny how the Dims throw around that this law is such a negative for insurance co's. It's a positive. They have an additional 30 million customers with the government footing the bill if they can't afford it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Bwahahaha! Buy that judge a beer. He even called out Obama in his ruling. Still wish you would have scolded the supreme court in such a public setting in the state of the union? Hmmm obama?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/31/judge-uses-obamas-words-against-him/

Judge uses Obama’s words against him

In ruling against President Obama‘s health care law, federal Judge Roger Vinson used Mr. Obama‘s own position from the 2008 campaign against him, arguing that there are other ways to tackle health care short of requiring every American to purchase insurance.

“I note that in 2008, then-Senator Obama supported a health care reform proposal that did not include an individual mandate because he was at that time strongly opposed to the idea, stating that ‘if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,’” Judge Vinson wrote in a footnote toward the end of the 78-page ruling Monday.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
And then follow that through... what happens if they refuse to pay the tax?

Throw them in jail? You have be charged and tried with a federal crime first.

Yes, it's called tax evasion, talk to Wesley Snipes if you think this doesn't happen already

That means we have to build more courts and prisons to try and jail more productive citizens.

The IRS has no problem prosecuting tax evaders with the current number of courts and prisons

Sometimes you have to see through the trees to see the forest.

stupid quote that has no relevence to this argument, one in the hand is worth two in the bush
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
I don't see anyone here including the judge offering solutions to fix the problem. Keep letting it go millions more even people reading this form can go join the un-insured ... It just keeps getting worse by the second.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Well thats a matter of interpretation, and I and many others believe he is wrong.

I guess you also feel it's unconstitutional to mandate income taxes, or social security taxes, or medicare taxes? The law doesn't force anyone to buy insurance, it just levies a tax on those who don't have it. To claim the law is unconstitutional is claiming the federal government doesn't have the authority to levy a new tax.

It isn't a tax it is a penalty. If they would have raised everyones taxes and then given them equal tax breaks for having insurance it would have been fine.

The judge has a pretty good point. If you can use the commerce clause to penalize people for NOT participating in interstate (actually, I CAN'T purchase insurance interstate) commerce then it would not apply to just insurance. From what I understand they would then have the ability to force people to participate in any sort of "commerce" they want. I am not very comfortable with that.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I don't see anyone here including the judge offering solutions to fix the problem. Keep letting it go millions more even people reading this form can go join the un-insured ... It just keeps getting worse by the second.

That isn't the judge's job.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I don't see anyone here including the judge offering solutions to fix the problem. Keep letting it go millions more even people reading this form can go join the un-insured ... It just keeps getting worse by the second.
remove the mandate.
increase subsidies to help people purchase health care.
take measures to actually reform the health care industry instead of just doubling down on it.
increase medicare eligability.
bring out the public option.

all viable options, but that's not the job of a judge.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
It isn't a tax it is a penalty. If they would have raised everyones taxes and then given them equal tax breaks for having insurance it would have been fine.

The judge has a pretty good point. If you can use the commerce clause to penalize people for NOT participating in interstate (actually, I CAN'T purchase insurance interstate) commerce then it would not apply to just insurance. From what I understand they would then have the ability to force people to participate in any sort of "commerce" they want. I am not very comfortable with that.

You know what I haven't seen one right-winger here do yet? Admit that the mandatory purchase is a REPUBLICAN plan, made to counter the Clinton plan.

It's an interesting question about the constitutional issue - and the threat of expanded mandatory purchases.

It's not clear how much the government would want to make mandatory - just a lot of being afraid by people, as the ridiculous scenarios show - and you show little confidence in democracy, that the elections can't elect people who would not require a lot of mandates.

But it's still a question about the danger and constitutionality.

Look at mandatory fire department subscriptions - that's in effect insurance. We've had 'private, voluntary' fire department businesses and people mostly prefer mandatory.

The healthcare insurance is even more compelling though, because of unequal risk and cost. Do we want people with high medical costs to get care, or not?

We could avoid this issue - by going with the single-payer system other wealthy countries - and some not that wealthy - have. But Republicans oppose that, too.

How about the 'voucher' system the right, unfortunately, wants for schools? They make it mandatory for your child to get an education - what if the voucher doesn't cover it, especially in these 'cost cutting' times? Could the Republicans then have 'mandatory purchase of education' instead of the liberals' 'free schools'?

A few things to consider along with the constitutional issue.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Are you insane?

I would be tap dancing in the street if the .gov mandated everyone must purchase a product/service that I sell.

Well, then maybe you should learn a bit more about the issue.

As I understand it, you are only part right.

The insurance companies' first choice was strongly to not change the status quo.

But seeing the likelihood of a bill passing, their lobbying was also used to be 'part of the team' designing - and ensuring it was also not bad for them, so that the issue was a 'win win' for them, they do well if it passes or not - just better if it doesn't, because the benefit of mandatory insurance is countered by other reforms like requiring people with pre-existing conditions to be insured.

There's evidence that while the industry was publically claiming to support the effort and paying for ads for the bill, they were privately fighting it.

So there's more to the issue than the one bit you mention.

Try the book the former Cigna exec wrote on the topic. I'll get you the name on the long shot you are willing to get the book.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Because forcing someone to buy something they can't afford, and taxing them with fines if they don't, makes it more affordable, right?
Exactly. The mandate no more solves the problem of health insurance than a law requiring people to buy housing would solve homelessness.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Can't wait until the SCOTUS shoots down that entire shitty bill. Glorious day!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
why does that matter?

It's part of whether people have any understanding of the politics and history, the agendas of the parties, and other things about the issue. The right-wing posters don't.

Imagine if a liberal came out for a single-payer system saying that the Republican healthcare reform bill Democrats opposed, they forced Obama to sign, was not adequate.

It's a 'side issue', but worth mentioning as part of people's understanding.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,649
2,925
136
You know what I haven't seen one right-winger here do yet? Admit that the mandatory purchase is a REPUBLICAN plan, made to counter the Clinton plan.

It's an interesting question about the constitutional issue - and the threat of expanded mandatory purchases.

It's not clear how much the government would want to make mandatory - just a lot of being afraid by people, as the ridiculous scenarios show - and you show little confidence in democracy, that the elections can't elect people who would not require a lot of mandates.

But it's still a question about the danger and constitutionality.

Look at mandatory fire department subscriptions - that's in effect insurance. We've had 'private, voluntary' fire department businesses and people mostly prefer mandatory.

The healthcare insurance is even more compelling though, because of unequal risk and cost. Do we want people with high medical costs to get care, or not?

We could avoid this issue - by going with the single-payer system other wealthy countries - and some not that wealthy - have. But Republicans oppose that, too.

How about the 'voucher' system the right, unfortunately, wants for schools? They make it mandatory for your child to get an education - what if the voucher doesn't cover it, especially in these 'cost cutting' times? Could the Republicans then have 'mandatory purchase of education' instead of the liberals' 'free schools'?

A few things to consider along with the constitutional issue.

Just a couple of friendly points.

1) Personally, I do have what you would typify as "little" confidence in democracy as it pertains to the issue as you have presented it. My lack of confidence is manifest in the fact that when it comes to spending, an issue closely tied to the one at hand, I believe it is quite true that you can't elect people who would not require a lot of spending.

My view is that whether you vote D or R or other you're always voting for higher spending, it just differs in what that spending is used for. On this issue if mandates are deemed legal the voters will encounter a long-term scenario where they will be forced to vote for mandates and the way you vote will only affect what mandates occur. Voting for no mandates will not be an option.

2) I would say using fire service isn't the best analogy. Fire service is a mandate (in most areas), but it is a State/local issue, not Federal. Fire service taxes go directly to funding the service whereas the health mandate penalty "tax" will not. Additionally, fire service is typically mandated for the (love-it or hate-it) reason of externalities. Refuse to pay your tax and we'd be happy to let your house burn down, but because your house aflame threatens others' property, livelihoods, etc it's in society's best interest to protect us from you.

Indeed, the same is true for something like auto insurance in most states. Not only is auto insurance under the purview of States (which any health mandate should be) but typically the auto insurance mandate only exists to the degree that you cause harm to others. If you want to drive, you need insurance to cover damage and injury to others but you're not required to cover yourself.

Take it one step further: if you don't want to fulfill the auto insurance mandate you can ride a bike or the bus. If you don't want to fulfill the fire service mandate you can rent. If you don't want to fulfill the health insurance mandate you can what, kill yourself?

Mandating health insurance has no direct externality effect. If I refuse to cover myself and get cancer I do not endanger you with my cancer. It is purely a first-party risk for all direct consequences.

Indirect consequences exist in the form of cost. If I choose not to cover myself somehow the cost of that burden has to be borne. Yet society bears the burden of these indirect consequences all the time. If I refuse to save for retirement, society bears the burden through welfare. If I refuse to plan for old age society bears the burden through Medicare (after I shed all of my assets so Medicare will pay for my nursing home). If I refuse to plan for the costs of raising children society bears the burden through welfare, WIC, child tax credits, etc.

What comes next? A mandate to get a job or pay a penalty? A mandate to save for retirement or pay a penalty? A mandate to purchase an annuity (to provide retirement income) or pay a penalty? All these have indirect costs that are just as onerous as the indirect costs of health care.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It's part of whether people have any understanding of the politics and history, the agendas of the parties, and other things about the issue. The right-wing posters don't.

Imagine if a liberal came out for a single-payer system saying that the Republican healthcare reform bill Democrats opposed, they forced Obama to sign, was not adequate.

It's a 'side issue', but worth mentioning as part of people's understanding.
WTF? Progressives on this forum are constantly "coming out" for a single-payer system (as long as that single payer is "the rich") and proclaiming that Obamacare is mostly Republican ideas and that Obama was forced to take it because it was all he could get past Republicans. The only thing left to imagine is that Democrats opposed it. During the last election not even that required imagining in many districts.