another day, another shooting

[Paladin3]

guns make you less safe

True. Now what do we do about it? So far, all I've heard is disarm the lawful. Got anything else?

 

[Paladin3]

See this is a reasonable point. I just wish the "pro-gun" constituency would say the same.

I totally agree with that statement, to a reasonable point. Living is unsafe to a degree. I don't want to be placed in an individual padded cell for my own safety. And I really don't want others deciding what level of safe I need and restricting my rights to achieve their idea of safe, so long as I am otherwise remaining lawful.

Most prohibition arguments are one form or another of "We/government know what's best for you."

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Why? What is the benefit to them having a gun?
We know know the risk.

Self defense, hunting, sport shooting. Same as anyone else.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Most are Republican and have authoritarian tendencies. The Democrats/Democrat-leaning independents are likely blue dogs and don't have as strong feelings about guns being for defense against tyranny.

Here's one who isn't Republican, and has strong opinions about guns.

How about we just get rid of all the Republicans instead? They're the ones with authoritarian/extremist tendencies.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Self defense, hunting, sport shooting. Same as anyone else.

That is one weird opinion you have.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

That is one weird opinion you have.

Sorry, what else are guns supposed to be used for?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Sorry, what else are guns supposed to be used for?

For a foreign person here temporarily?
That’s weird

 

[JSt0rm]

For a foreign person here temporarily?
That’s weird

slippery slope bra

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Does my particular brand of crazy remind you of someone else?

Almost encyclopedia post for encyclopedia post.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

For a foreign person here temporarily?
That’s weird

It's weird to have recreational activities while visiting the US? Should we also ban other recreational activities? Or just ones involving a thing that's dangerous to others when used by someone with criminal intent?

 

[shortylickens]

List of countries by firearm-related homicide rates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yep, 12.21 deaths per 100k in America vs... 0.23 per 100k in the UK. Truly horrible gun violence here. Must be because we don't have enough guns.

Do you have a less ridiculous argument to try?

I didnt make an argument. I made a point.
YOU made an argument. A very poor one. But you clearly dont understand how or why and I doubt you ever will. I also dont have the energy right now to explain to you what a logical fallacy is.

If you find this not too difficult to read, read it.

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

While the number of gun deaths in the U.S. fell for the second consecutive year in 2023, it remained among the highest annual totals on record.

www.pewresearch.org

The Data Behind Gun Deaths: CDC Expands Study Into The Why Of Firearm Suicides - WABE

For more than 20 years, studying guns and health has been a challenge for the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention. Entangled in the messy world of gun politics, researchers have struggled to study violent deaths. But a nationwide program that recently expanded to all 50 states is changing...

www.wabe.org

What the data says about crime in the U.S.

Federal statistics show dramatic declines in U.S. violent and property crime rates since the early 1990s.

www.pewresearch.org

Theres a really good article which goes into even better analysis than these but I cant find it right now. Rest assured I will post it as soon as I can.

 

[JSt0rm]

It's weird to have recreational activities while visiting the US? Should we also ban other recreational activities? Or just ones involving a thing that's dangerous to others when used by someone with criminal intent?

Would you rather die or have a recreational activity?

 

[mikeymikec]

I didnt make an argument. I made a point.
YOU made an argument. A very poor one. But you clearly dont understand how or why and I doubt you ever will. I also dont have the energy right now to explain to you what a logical fallacy is.

If you find this not too difficult to read, read it.

Well, maybe you should take the time to make your case rather than wasting time in attempting to portray yourself as superior while making "not arguments" that are so vague it makes me wonder whether you've ever taken any time at all to critically analyse them.

You then made no effort to substantiate your original "not an argument" and moved on to talking about US stats on their own.

Your latest "point" apparently is that the US is just a terribly unhappy place where people keep committing suicide all the time and logically they would anyway even if they didn't have such a convenient means to hand. I won't bother pointing out the untested assertion there because no doubt you'll back away from it too.

The same table I posted also includes the intentional homicide with firearms figures:

List of countries by firearm-related homicide rates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

4.46 per 100k for US, 0.06 for UK.

And just so we're clear that people aren't just getting killed by other means:

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US: 5.3 per 100k, UK 1.2. So the US's murder rate apparently is more than quadruple the UK's.

Also, you may have thought that you were dropping a knowledge bomb on me with your article about crime generally on the decrease in the US, but not only is it a really basic point that anyone who has bothered to make a substantial argument about crime levels already knows, it's also not unique to the US either. It's certainly true in the UK (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's true for most developed countries), which is also a fair indicator of just how irrelevant the point is.

One thing I'm going to make clear is that if you continue to shift your goal posts and make one lazy "not an argument" after another, I will stop engaging with you. I have no time for people who try to quietly abandon their flawed arguments without conceding anything.

 

[Maxima1]

And just so we're clear that people aren't just getting killed by other means:

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US: 5.3 per 100k, UK 1.2. So the US's murder rate apparently is more than quadruple the UK's.

Also, you may have thought that you were dropping a knowledge bomb on me with your article about crime generally on the decrease in the US, but not only is it a really basic point that anyone who has bothered to make a substantial argument about crime levels already knows, it's also not unique to the US either. It's certainly true in the UK (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's true for most developed countries), which is also a fair indicator of just how irrelevant the point is.

That's not a complete comparison, since the homicide rate varies significantly with race.

QuickStats: Age-Adjusted Homicide Rates, by Race/Ethnicity...

During 2015–2016, the age-adjusted homicide rate for the total population increased from 5.7 to 6.2 per 100,000 standard population (an 8.8% increase). The rate increased from 2.6 to 2.9 (11.5%) for n

www.cdc.gov

Here's one who isn't Republican, and has strong opinions about guns.

How about we just get rid of all the Republicans instead? They're the ones with authoritarian/extremist tendencies.

I never said there wasn't. Look at the pew chart I showed. There is clearly much more Republicans with many of them completely OK with the rot in the GOP. They're not even hiding it anymore.

How do you go about "just get rid of all the Republicans"? What is that even in response to? Anyway, if a dictatorship needs to be taken down, I don't think it'll come from you or Paladin just because you have guns, which btw you'll have to contend with his loyal supporters who will be greater in number and also armed. It'll be something else.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1205211276005101568

 

[Paladin3]

You just said you dont see how a sense of safety from guns is fake. Now you say a lot of things arent safe and you own guns for other reasons. Are those other reasons worth the death and injury to thousands and thousands of people every year? That seems like a horrible position to take.

You have to ignore than 99.92%+ of guns are used safely and legally for your argument to hold any water. Why do you keep insisting that if the lawful voluntarily disarm that it will in any way stop criminals from committing murder?

 

[Paladin3]

So, I'm going to explain this again as I have a few times. A firearm does nothing on its own, it's an inert piece of wood and steel that sits in a corner, silently absorbing and radiating heat and cold. People do evil things with firearms, but the actions of others do NOT have a bearing on my own actions, in this context. Furthermore, the actions of others should not predicate my levels of freedoms, in any form. Finally, my decision to own a firearm or defend those who do does not make me a 'child killer', nor does it mean I support such people.

If you wish to conflate this as 'I support the death of innocents in exchange for my freedoms', feel free to if it makes you feel better. I honestly think the whole 'Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants' was incorrect, it should have been 'Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of innocents'.

I agree with all of this except for the last sentence. It should be "if you disarm the lawful the tree of liberty will be drenched with the blood of innocence because you rendered them helpless."

 

[Paladin3]

The problem is, it simply isn't as far as they're concerned. Plus, where in the fuck are people getting that having personal safety isn't a freedom? By that I mean, not having to stress about assholes with guns murdering them. Because last I checked, getting gunned down is pretty goddamn serious infringement of a person's rights/freedom, regardless of it being government or a private citizen. But when people admit that they value their right to a surrogate penis, er I mean gun, over other people's safety but then insist that everyone accept their logic, well it should be obvious that no actual discussion can be had as one side is literally using the argument "I'll fucking kill you if you even try" but claiming they're being rational. Its frankly as dumb as Turmp at his dumbest (another tipoff should be that if Turmp and Jr are spouting off about something, which they have repeatedly done with regards to guns, that if you hold the same view, you might should maybe reconsider how rational that actually is).

You are advocating restricting the constitutional rights of lawful citizens based on your feels. That's not how things work in a democratic society. You sound like the snowflakes who demand the right to not be offended.

 

[pmv]

Also, you may have thought that you were dropping a knowledge bomb on me with your article about crime generally on the decrease in the US, but not only is it a really basic point that anyone who has bothered to make a substantial argument about crime levels already knows, it's also not unique to the US either. It's certainly true in the UK (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's true for most developed countries), which is also a fair indicator of just how irrelevant the point is.

Yeah, it's been well-known for a long time, and I believe it's true across the whole developed world. It's a very interesting question as to why it's happened. I do think the removal of lead from petrol is a possible contender for explanations, and if it is that, it's quite a scandal in itself that so many were poisoned for so long (and the blame so mis-directed). But I also wonder if it's to do with...video games! Namely that they got much better, along with all the other technology of amusement and distraction, thus giving people something else to do than go out and cause trouble. Plus technology meant a shift in the nature of crime (sit on the sofa hacking a computer rather than go out violently mugging someone).

Legalisation of abortion has also been suggested (though I'm not convinced that fits the international nature of the change).

Nobody knows, I guess, but it's quite a frustrating puzzle.

 

[Paladin3]

You accept the death of children so you can feel a fake sense of safety. How presidential of you!

Fuck you, asshole. Tell me how we are going to disarm murderers? Shame on you for exploiting the death of children to further your political goals and blame the lawful for the actions of murders.

Not acceptable here. This is the kind of direct and egregious personal attack we can no longer ignore here.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[pmv]

So, I'm going to explain this again as I have a few times. A firearm does nothing on its own, it's an inert piece of wood and steel that sits in a corner, silently absorbing and radiating heat and cold.

Things don't "radiate cold" !!!

 

[Paladin3]

Crass, but yes. I don't see it as fake however.

Not really even sure what this is meant to mean.

JSt0rm is a piece of shit who has no shame, and he will use the blood of innocents to paint the lawful as guilty of the actions of murders. All so he can make believe he is really doing something about gun violence.

As with post #269, this sort of egregious and direct personal insult we can no longer tolerate here.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Paladin3]

You value your guns more than the lives of children. You cheat them of living a full life so that you can feel good about having a toy.


We have a big problem in this country with deplorables. When things like this...

mean nothing to a human who would support guns over it we need to view them as a psychopath they are and take that gun from them.

You need to watch your mouth and who you accuse of not valuing the lives of shooting victims, you fucking piece of shit. What do you know of the pain of the folks in that photo?

That's Saugus High School in Santa Clarita, CA. That's my hometown, where I was born and lived and raised my family for 35+ years. I went to Canyon High School across town. I worked as a photojournalist for the local paper in Santa Clarita early in my career, and I've been to that school probably hundreds of times. Many of my friends still live there and some of their children attend Saugus High School. On their behalf, fuck you.

Gun violence isn't some abstract concept for me. I've seen people die from it first hand. And I DON'T use their loss of life in vain to make a political point like you insist on doing. I know it makes you feel good to do so, but, double fuck you.

If you've got some plausible plan to disarm school shooters the please share. It's easy to say "just ban guns" but far harder to actually do it. But I know those facts mean nothing to you. It's easier to unjustly accuse the lawful of the crimes of murderers because that's all you've got to make you feel like you are accomplishing something. You are not.

 

[Paladin3]

So should a foreign guy who is here on a temporary basis be allowed to buy a gun?

If he hasn't committed a crime or otherwise been prohibited, yes. Same goes for free speech, freedom of religion, property rights, etc. We don't discriminate based on national origin.

 

[Paladin3]

I whole heartedly disagree that more guns equal more safety. How many accidental shootings are there in homes? How many people, even those well versed in gun safety accidentally shoot themselves? A Texas police officer just did it in this past week while in a training facility.

And that doesn't even go into all the kids that have shot each other recently after getting ahold of a gun that was in their home. Then there are the hunting accidents.

Yes there are. And my motorcycle is dangerous too. As is my chainsaw. What is your point? If you feel no freedom or right is worth any risk whatsoever, then just say so.

 

[Paladin3]

Why? What is the benefit to them having a gun?
We know know the risk.

*Sigh* What is the benefit of them having free speech? Freedom of religion? Freedom of association? Property rights?

Remember, the right to own a gun is not the right to murder. Nor does owning a gun make someone into a murderer. Murder is always illegal.