another day, another shooting

[JSt0rm]

Fuck you, asshole. Tell me how we are going to disarm murderers? Shame on you for exploiting the death of children to further your political goals and blame the lawful for the actions of murders.

Not acceptable here. This is the kind of direct and egregious personal attack we can no longer ignore here.

Perknose
Forum Director

lol.

I didnt report you paladin.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You always go back to the no true scottsman fallacy. Why?

You want to punish the majority for the actions of the minority, why?

 

[JSt0rm]

You want to punish the majority for the actions of the minority, why?

And you dont care about the deaths of children. You dont need guns for anything but hunting. And thats where guns should stay. Not some weird fetishizing defending your home from some statistically non existant home invasion.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

And you don't care about the deaths of children. You don't need guns for anything but hunting. And that's where guns should stay. Not some weird fetishizing defending your home from some statistically non existent home invasion.

There you go again, making accusations. Got any more fun names to call me? What makes you feel good, tell me how you really feel.

Also I fixed your silly grammatical/spelling mistakes.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I guess we'd have to have a double-standard about it being a right that supersedes the powers of the Constitution and lawmakers to say "no."


Not that you or I would, but say we went to Africa to hunt antelope or whatever is legal. We'd probably have to buy or rent a gun. They probably won't let us take one on the plane, you think? Anyway, it'd be a little weird to expect this courtesy from other countries while the USA suddenly refuses the same in return.


Americans are just as foreign when they go to another country on a hunting trip and expect the same. Your point assumes we willingly accept a double standard.

We’re not in Africa, local hunting places don’t need the revenue that bad.
Also I assume those hunting licenses for big game typically involve who brides the best.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We’re not in Africa, local hunting places don’t need the revenue that bad.

You might be surprised, Bighorns, elk, moose, cost a lot to get a tag for. Even more magnified now that half our parks' income has been gutted thanks to our current administration.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You might be surprised, Bighorns, elk, moose, cost a lot to get a tag for. Even more magnified now that half our parks' income has been gutted thanks to our current administration.

Why foreign guys whom need to by a gun to hunt them? The whole setup sound preposterous to me.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Why foreign guys whom need to by a gun to hunt them? The whole setup sound preposterous to me.

Sorry, I wasn't specifically saying that someone who was foreign would get a tag to hunt elk, moose, etc... not even sure if those are available regularly to non-locals, but not sure. Was just generally referencing that hunting tags can actually bring in decent revenue in some cases.

As a note, in TX at least, a military ID can get you a hunting license. Citizenship or even residence need not apply.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Sorry, I wasn't specifically saying that someone who was foreign would get a tag to hunt elk, moose, etc... not even sure if those are available regularly to non-locals, but not sure. Was just generally referencing that hunting tags can actually bring in decent revenue in some cases.

As a note, in TX at least, a military ID can get you a hunting license. Citizenship or even residence need not apply.

I guess in its simplest form, doesn’t a middle eastern guy who is in the country for a limited period getting a hunting license which then allows him to buy any gun he chooses sound sort of weird?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I guess in its simplest form, doesn’t a middle eastern guy who is in the country for a limited period getting a hunting license which then allows him to buy any gun he chooses sound sort of weird?

Hunting licenses don't permit someone to buy a firearm. You need to have a permanent residence to get a background check (as well as passing said background check) in order to buy a gun at normal retailers. I'm pretty sure that gun shows have looser restrictions on them, which I've personally brought up as a flaw in the US in prior threads.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Hunting licenses don't permit someone to buy a firearm. You need to have a permanent residence to get a background check (as well as passing said background check) in order to buy a gun at normal retailers. I'm pretty sure that gun shows have looser restrictions on them, which I've personally brought up as a flaw in the US in prior threads.

That’s not what the original responded to this question said.

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[[DHT]Osiris]

That’s not what the original responded to this question said.
Placeholder for link I’ll be back

Oh, you can probably rent a gun in some circumstances without being a resident.

Would it worry you to know that you can rent firearms at a firing range without so much as a background check? Like, very powerful firearms? Fully automatic firearms? Not allowed to take them with you, unless of course nobody could stop you.

 

[Maxima1]

Just because something is unlikely doesn't mean we should surrender the means to fight it if it does happen. Otherwise there would be no need for seat belts and fire extinguishers.

You're inconsistent in a manner similar to anti-marijuana, pro-gun owners. You've gone both ways on prohibition. You said prohibition wouldn't work presumably because you think guns will be smuggled across the border and people would be 3D printing them. Once time comes, the resistance could get them, right? Yet you keep arguing everyone will be sitting ducks simply because they didn't have guns at the time.

Not to mention there are many legal uses for guns beside defense against a tyrannical government.

Yes. And how many people push for ALL guns to be taken away?

It was a humorous exaggeration, pointing out how silly it is to ban guns for fear of an authoritative regime when you can be more specific, and just ban Republicans.

Ok, but I never said I wanted to ban guns because I was afraid of an authoritative regime. I was pointing out that if we take the hypothetical at face value, it's ironic that the people that are supposed to save us are the ones with authoritarian tendencies.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Oh, you can probably rent a gun in some circumstances without being a resident.

Would it worry you to know that you can rent firearms at a firing range without so much as a background check? Like, very powerful firearms? Fully automatic firearms? Not allowed to take them with you, unless of course nobody could stop you.

Rent at a range where the gun cannot leave the range. Zero problems
As far as someone walking or shooting their way out, that’s what liability insurance is for. I am more concerned that on modern cars typically it is close to impossible to change a headlight in low light with little effort. Need to replace headlights ASAP when they burn out. Shit should be easier to do.

Here is the earlier statement about foreign guys getting hunting licenses that allow a gun purchase.

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[[DHT]Osiris]

Rent at a range where the gun cannot leave the range. Zero problems
As far as someone walking or shooting their way out, that’s what liability insurance is for. I am more concerned that on modern cars typically it is close to impossible to change a headlight in low light with little effort. Need to replace headlights ASAP when they burn out. Shit should be easier to do.

Here is the earlier statement about foreign guys getting hunting licenses that allow a gun purchase.

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Right, I heard about this on NPR on the way home today. Definitely appears to be an oversight. Hunting licenses don't require an ID (or at least didn't when I was selling them), and they don't have a photo ID on them. Given that, it's perfectly possible for someone to use someone else's hunting license, or get one granted to them without a photo ID. That breaks the verification of identity between the person, the gun seller, and the background check system. I'd call that a significant fault.

 

[CZroe]

Rent at a range where the gun cannot leave the range. Zero problems
As far as someone walking or shooting their way out, that’s what liability insurance is for. I am more concerned that on modern cars typically it is close to impossible to change a headlight in low light with little effort. Need to replace headlights ASAP when they burn out. Shit should be easier to do.

Here is the earlier statement about foreign guys getting hunting licenses that allow a gun purchase.

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I looked it up when you incorrectly said he bought it at a gun show. Ignoring the "top stories" thing that shows up when you search something related to current news, this was literally the first search result for "pensacola shooter:"

The Pensacola shooter wasn't a US citizen. Here's how he got a gun

The FBI has said it presumes Friday's shooting at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida was an act of terrorism. But what wasn't a crime is how the gunman, a 21-year-old Saudi national named Mohammed Alshamrani, obtained a gun in the first place.

www.cnn.com

"Possessing a hunting license is one of a handful of ways non-immigrants can obtain a gun.
...
Other exceptions for non-immigrants who want to have a gun include being the official representative of a foreign government or a foreign law enforcement officer in the United States on official business, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives says on its website."

I'm just telling you what's being reported. Not sure where you got the gun show thing.

 

[Paladin3]

I would like to apologize for my public outburst yesterday. The owners of this forums have made it very clear that personal attacks are not allowed, and I fully understood that prior to my questionable postings.

I stand behind what I said, but not the language I chose to express my anger.

 

[Paladin3]

Not relevant, but proof that America is pretty gun sick; https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-dad-accidental-shooting-conviction-daughter

Dudebro accidentally kills a teenage girl. Dudebro accidentally shoots his own daughter.

It is immoral to denigrate an entire group of the bad actions of a small subset of that group. I know, I know...that's a "no true Scotsman" argument. How come that never applies to other groups when someone ignorantly judges the whole based on the bad actions of the few? Wait, is that a "strawman argument?"

I guess some people are judged based on their individual actions and the content of their character and others just aren't.

 

[Paladin3]

OK, it's just straight up sickness... which gravitates/escalates towards guns.

The US can gun itself down to oblivion, if that is what it chooses. But that doesn't mean they aren't doing so, because pointing that out could lead to someone's freedom being compromised.

Reality is king - and the reality is that this nation is gun sick.

If someone get's drunk and beats their wife, is everyone who ever had a beer responsible for that crime too? Why can you all just give up your beer to save lives?

Wait, almost forgot, "strawman argument."

 

[Paladin3]

It's the existence of easy access to firearms that allow people to act out on those, they are not the cause.
My proposal, ban all semi-autos and speed loaders for revolvers with the exception for military and law enforcement. Ban the sale of reloading supplies, parts and ammunition for these weapons as well.
Buy back/trade in program for all current semi-autos, without ammo, they will eventually become useless for their intended purpose, even for criminals. Strong background checks in every sale or transfer of a gun.
Still allows for all current legal forms of gun use and will drastically reduce mass shootings.

Edit: of course you'd have to start by banning the sales of ammo, etc without announcing it so people couldn't stock up.

You sound like someone planning the war on drugs, or the prohibition of alcohol. And the criminals ready to get wealthy off of the illegal trade of guns are praying you get your way.

 

[Paladin3]

Do you feel this would technically be an infringement on the 2A as written, or the spirit of the 2A?

As a second question, do you feel a similarly defined curtailment of freedom of speech, freedom of movement, etc would be appropriate?

Both sides have proven they will attempt end-runs around The Constitution if it suits their needs. It's a good thing it takes pretty much 2/3 of the country to amend it.

 

[Paladin3]

In the spirit of the 2A, how is it an infringement? People still have their right to hunt, protect themselves, etc. the only thing they are "losing" is the ability to kill masses of people in minutes or less.
As to the second question, those can't be used by a single person to kill masses by themselves. I strongly support bringing back the Fairness Act and not allowing entertainment networks to label themselves as "News".

You are depriving lawful citizens the right to own the best tool for self-defense, a high capacity, semi-auto firearm, even though those firearms are currently legal and in common use both legally and safely. Telling a lawful citizen all they get is a revolver and five rounds to protect themselves is ridiculous when you can do nothing to stop criminals from carrying whatever weapon they want.

I agree with you that a world without weapons would be a safer place to live. But your only plan for achieving it is to put undue, unconstitutional and immoral burdens on the law-abiding. Trickle down gun control won't work any better than trickle down economics did. Bad people tend to do whatever is in their own best interest regardless of he law. Why don't you go after them instead of the law-abiding?

 

[Paladin3]

I just mean, restricting firearms in any form is infringement by definition:
View attachment 14345
The 2A doesn't say 'right to hunt, right to protect oneself', it says 'right to bear arms'.

That isn't to say the 2A cannot be amended, just trying to think through how it would be processed by the courts.

I agree with you wrt the fairness act.

Agreed. Restricting gun rights in any form is infringement by definition. This is a literal interpretation of the Second Amendment.

But, as reasonable members of a civilized society, we gun owners have compromised endlessly and agreed to the many current restrictions already on the books. And we love the fact that assault, murder and violent crimes of all nature are already illegal. The vast majority of American gun owners understand that unrestricted rights of any nature are seldom a good thing.

So, if new gun control proposals were doing more than simply going after the guns of the law-abiding, we'd be much more likely to compromise even further, but that's not what's being proposed. Instead, we are slowly (not so slowly) working our way down the road to a total gun ban for lawful citizen. One that will have no power to limit what a criminal chooses to possess considering how ineffective prohibition of any kind and past gun bans have been in this country.

 

[Paladin3]

You always go back to the no true scottsman fallacy. Why?

For the same reason I saw a black man arrested for dealing drugs but don't believe all black men to be drug dealers. Or all Mexicans to be rapists. Or all white men to be misogynistic jerks. Or all Muslims to be terrorists.

I understand any right can be criminally abused, but don't feel that the majority should pay for crimes committed by the few. Why don't you feel the same?

 

[Paladin3]

lol.

I didnt report you paladin.

I never thought you did. And I stand by what I said and accept whatever penalty the mods have to dish out on behalf of the new forum owners.

Posting on these privately owned forums is not a right, but a privilege.