If you look at the US's economic growth, you'll find that when we entered trade agreements and lowered tariffs, our grow soared...The great depression was caused by the failure of the banking industry, not free market economy. Oh, and the solution to the great depression was WW2 and the lifting of trade barriers, not socialist programs (which failed for 10 years before WW2).
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Another business in California closes its doors
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If you look at the US's economic growth, you'll find that when we entered trade agreements and lowered tariffs, our grow soared...The great depression was caused by the failure of the banking industry, not free market economy. Oh, and the solution to the great depression was WW2 and the lifting of trade barriers, not socialist programs (which failed for 10 years before WW2).
Vic
Elite Member
I'll consider that when you learn to read the posts of others and acquire actual historical and economic knowledge.
To being with:
- I did not say that Finland and Sweden are "totally" free market economies. I said they are mixed economies like the US. I even provided an informative link for you to click so you would understand what a mixed economy is. You insult me when you choose to continue to argue in intentional ignorance.
- I honestly don't care one bit about you or the state of CA.
- The Great Depression was NOT caused by adherence to free market principles. It was caused by the Federal Reserve artificially monkeying with the money supply and the interest rates. This is historical fact. Quite the opposite to your economic ignorance, capitalism does have built-in checks and balances (compare this to when you tried to say earlier that a free market economy would not have laws against fraud, i.e. your flawed Worldcom analogy), part of which is the way that market forces drive interest rates up when loaned funded already in circulation prove unproductive (which occurs typically due to overspeculation). In the late 1920's, the Fed artificially held interest rates low despite the bubble in the stock market (wherein natural market pressures were pushing rates up). Then, after the crash, the Fed reacted too late and raised rates when they should have lowered them. Nor did these "socialisms" bail out the US economy. In fact, the general consensus is that FDR's populist "New Deal" programs actually extended the downturn, as the Depression lasted all the way until WWII, which did get the economy moving again, but at the inevitable cost of inflation and debt.
NOW... when YOU want to argue with facts and knowledge, and not ideology and ignorance, feel free.
miketheidiot
Lifer
if you include that that it costs about $30k in permits to build a new house where i live, easily.
marincounty
Diamond Member
quote: Nor did these "socialisms" bail out the US economy. In fact, the general consensus is that FDR's populist "New Deal" programs actually extended the downturn, as the Depression lasted all the way until WWII, which did get the economy moving again, but at the inevitable cost of inflation and debt.
NOW... when YOU want to argue with facts and knowledge, and not ideology and ignorance, feel free.
____________________________
That FDR was a terrible socialist, creating the GI bill, the Social Security and unemployment systems, mortgage and bank insurance, the minimum wage and fair labor standards.
Creating all of those make work programs that built things all over this country and gave people wages to feed and house their families.
Let the people starve and wait for another war to help the economy.
The facts are that it is the government's responsibility to help when things are bad. According to your logic, the govt should abandon Louisiana and Mississippi and let the free market repair and rebuild.
NOW... when YOU want to argue with facts and knowledge, and not ideology and ignorance, feel free.
____________________________
That FDR was a terrible socialist, creating the GI bill, the Social Security and unemployment systems, mortgage and bank insurance, the minimum wage and fair labor standards.
Creating all of those make work programs that built things all over this country and gave people wages to feed and house their families.
Let the people starve and wait for another war to help the economy.
The facts are that it is the government's responsibility to help when things are bad. According to your logic, the govt should abandon Louisiana and Mississippi and let the free market repair and rebuild.
Vic
Elite Member
That was NOT my logic nor is it my argument. Hell, your strawman here doesn't even resemble the topic of this thread, and in your black-and-white world you seem to have no clue what socialism even is (much less economics in general).
But, humoring you for just a moment, I would say that it seems that your logic is that things are always bad. Or how else do you justify your authoritarian position that government should have responsibility over everything? (Which btw is what socialism is, complete government control over all property and means of production). Or that I am some kind of anarchist because I believe in free markets and private property? Obviously, you are either ignorant or deluded to believe that ONLY these 2 ideological extremes exist in reality.
Anyway, I'm done humoring your trollish ignorance. I've found amusing your assertations that the President who created the military-industrial complex was a socialist, or that the richest man in the world lives in a socialist country, to be amusing, but like talking with a 2 year-old, it grows tiresome. When you're done insisting that your unsubstantiated statements of opinion are facts, and come up with something real and true to back up your ideological argument, get back to me.
marincounty
Diamond Member
The original thread was about another California business closing its doors.
The facts are that this business did not close because of government regulations, but because the owner decided to close it. This was not the fault of liberals or socialists. This was freedom of choice, you're in favor of freedom, right?
I have never advocated that government have complete control over all property and means of production.
Scandinavian countries have a lot of socialism, socialized medicine, free schooling, subsidized housing, and does not resemble the US.
They also have capitalism, and do have rich people in spite of very high taxes.
Maybe you would support much higher taxes here to provide all of these wonderful benefits to Americans, no, I didn't think so.
When you have some facts to back up your unsubstantiated assertions, get back to me, otherwise crawl back into your hole.
The facts are that this business did not close because of government regulations, but because the owner decided to close it. This was not the fault of liberals or socialists. This was freedom of choice, you're in favor of freedom, right?
I have never advocated that government have complete control over all property and means of production.
Scandinavian countries have a lot of socialism, socialized medicine, free schooling, subsidized housing, and does not resemble the US.
They also have capitalism, and do have rich people in spite of very high taxes.
Maybe you would support much higher taxes here to provide all of these wonderful benefits to Americans, no, I didn't think so.
When you have some facts to back up your unsubstantiated assertions, get back to me, otherwise crawl back into your hole.
Future Shock
Senior member
Yeah, but why didn't you tell the nice people WHY the government and people of California acted to make that happen? Wasn't it because of all of the Californian gas stations that were built 20 years ago with insufficinet tankage that were leaking into the groundwater, poisoning entire towns water supplies, ruining the value of neighboring properties, and then...POOF, the owner magically declares bankruptcy, and leaves the state and the taxpayer to clean up their Love Canal...
If the industry hadn't acted so irresponsibly, then such legislation would not have been needed. But instead of acting like responsible adults, most gas station owners cut and ran under bankruptcy. They COULD have addressed this situation volunarily 10 years ago or more, when there was mounting evidence of leakage and groundwater contamination...
But NOOOO, they played it down, tried to minimize their "estimated impact", tried to delay and bribe government officials...and finally the public had enough and snapped back...they developed a backbone.
And how do I know about THIS? My grandfather and uncle owned a large gas station in upstate New York, and after his death the family had to clean up the affected ground contamination...
Future Shock
Vic
Elite Member
You mean when finally the public became obsessed by irrational fear, don't you, FS?
Personally, I find the authoritarian left's attacks on industry to be amusing. It's kind of like living in perpetual fear and anxiety, believing in the land over the rainbow, and biting the hand that feeds you and finding out it's your own hand -- all at the same time.
IronMentality
Senior member
:thumbsup:
Thump553
Lifer
<--- Not a California resident but familiar with this area of the law.
I call shins on this. First of all, groundwater pollution by petroleum products is a long recognized problem on a national scale. The rules requiring periodic replacement & upgrading of underground storage tanks (UST) has been around, nationally, for over thirty years and done enormous good in preventing pollution. It is expensive to prove the cause of underground pollution once it has occurred, and the costs and dificulty of remedying it are enormous. Most often the gas station (or other source) is long gone or unable to bear the expense, and then we all pay for the cost of correcting the damage they did.
Despite the OP's protests to the contrary, most gas stations in my area are independently owned, and all do comply with the law. The fact that sloppy and exploitative businesses are (alledgedly) driven out of business due to the supposedly high cost of doing what is right for society worries me not one whit.
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