Another attempt to help the right understand the change in wealth distribution

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe
Real wages haven't kept up with the increase in productivity, corporations are earning more money by cutting costs(outsourcing) and/or increasing productivity but these gains are being passed on to investors rather than the workers themselves.

Solutions:

1. Radical reassessment of current wages, which will lead to rampant inflation most likely.

or

2. Increase opportunities for middle income workers to purchase stock in their employers at a discount.

Assuming you don't work for Enron, solution #2 seems the only choice.

OK lets say our government "reassesses" current wages...then what? Raise min wage? Dictate what employers should pay their employees? I think we've covered that topic on a bazillion threads...

As for #2...what if its a private company? No stock to purchase...and...MOST public companies allow employees to purchase stocks at a discounted rate already. Unfortunately most employees dont. Thats not the employers fault.

#1 obviously isn't viable, jsut throwing that out there for those who think the gov has that responsbility. Which I disagree with.

#2 Profit sharing for private corps. AFAIK most employers don't offer the kind of stock options to Joe Schmoe that they do to their upper and middle management, not even close.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: palehorse74
blah blah blah please give more of your money to those who have not earned it blah blah blah.

"Return more of the money to those who earn it"would be more like it!

So you're saying we should cut taxes...?

No, I am talking payroll. And by the same legallity we use to set a minimum wage set a maximum. On the Patent topic, set a five year limit on unused Corporate Patents.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

now, I know the whole "work" thing confuses some people... so GL!

I'm puzzled as to how people can still believe this junk. It may be true that those who are wealthy had to work hard to attain their wealth, however that does not imply that working hard will make one wealthy. You can work virtually any job for decades and never become a high-ranking manager.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: palehorse74
blah blah blah please give more of your money to those who have not earned it blah blah blah.

"Return more of the money to those who earn it"would be more like it!

So you're saying we should cut taxes...?

No, I am talking payroll. And by the same legallity we use to set a minimum wage set a maximum. On the Patent topic, set a five year limit on unused Corporate Patents.

Why do you think a corporation should be allowed to own a patent in the first place? I think you should start there to see the fallacy in your thinking. You don't patch up a bald tire.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Please check your propaganda. 12.9% minus 12.1% is not about a 7% tax cut, but a less then one (.7%) percent cut. Now can we trust any of your other numbers?

.129 (12.9%) x .94 = .121 or 12.1% (indicates 6% cut)

.06 (6%) x .129 (12.9%) = .00774, or .008 (rounded up) .129 - .008 = .121 or 12.1% (indicates 8% cut)

.121 divided by .129 = .9379 or .94, again indicating 6% cut

He said about a 7% cut. Looks about correct to me as a tax professional.

For an even clearer (perhaps intuitive example) apply these two rates to dollar amounts of income. You should readily see the best way to communicate the reduction in the rate, and therefor tax, will be expressed in the percentages as used by the poster.

Fern

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: palehorse74
blah blah blah please give more of your money to those who have not earned it blah blah blah.

"Return more of the money to those who earn it"would be more like it!

So you're saying we should cut taxes...?

Yes, to those that really need it like the peons making less than $100,000 or $40,000.

No tax cuts for the rich, period.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe
Real wages haven't kept up with the increase in productivity, corporations are earning more money by cutting costs(outsourcing) and/or increasing productivity but these gains are being passed on to investors rather than the workers themselves.

Solutions:

1. Radical reassessment of current wages, which will lead to rampant inflation most likely.

or

2. Increase opportunities for middle income workers to purchase stock in their employers at a discount.

Assuming you don't work for Enron, solution #2 seems the only choice.

OK lets say our government "reassesses" current wages...then what? Raise min wage? Dictate what employers should pay their employees? I think we've covered that topic on a bazillion threads...

As for #2...what if its a private company? No stock to purchase...and...MOST public companies allow employees to purchase stocks at a discounted rate already. Unfortunately most employees dont. Thats not the employers fault.

#1 obviously isn't viable, jsut throwing that out there for those who think the gov has that responsbility. Which I disagree with.

#2 Profit sharing for private corps. AFAIK most employers don't offer the kind of stock options to Joe Schmoe that they do to their upper and middle management, not even close.

Just FYI...employee stock purchase plan is quite different than options...I didnt mean options...

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: ayabe
#2 Profit sharing for private corps. AFAIK most employers don't offer the kind of stock options to Joe Schmoe that they do to their upper and middle management, not even close.

If Joe Schmo was smart, he wouldn't take them up on the offer even if made, unless there some reasonable, if not certain, expectation of going public soon.

Owning minority shares in a non-public company is risky at best. No control over management (who owns a majority of the stock) and no public market. Also valuation & liquidity difficulties.

In all most 100% of the cases I have seen, employees of small private companies prefer cash over other type benefits, whether retirement plans and often even health care. It's usually the best choice too.

Fern

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Can anybody confirm the Jews had a law thousands of years ago to the effect, and I am not sure of the exact details, that every 70 years or so everybody had to give up all they had accumulated and start over?

That was the Northwest indians who gave everything they owned away just to prove how wealthy they were.

Yeah, but that was just to brag about how wealthy they were. It wasn't anything remotely resembling what we would consider charity today. The practice was called the potlatch BTW.

Sounds like the $10,000.00 a plate dinners now. Or do they get a tax break on those too?

It was the Jews who had the system of canceling all debts and contracts and returning all properties sold every 49 years, called the Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25).

When did Israel last practice a Year of Jubilee? It's been there over fifty years now?

 

[Vic]

There are so many ways that human beings can be unequal from themselves in acheivement than simply the acquisition of currency. Personally, I think that instead of focusing on minimum wage, we should focus on minimum education and intelligence. Too bad you can't just give education away like you can other people's money!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

Who sold a business???

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe
Real wages haven't kept up with the increase in productivity, corporations are earning more money by cutting costs(outsourcing) and/or increasing productivity but these gains are being passed on to investors rather than the workers themselves.

Solutions:

1. Radical reassessment of current wages, which will lead to rampant inflation most likely.

or

2. Increase opportunities for middle income workers to purchase stock in their employers at a discount.

Assuming you don't work for Enron, solution #2 seems the only choice.

OK lets say our government "reassesses" current wages...then what? Raise min wage? Dictate what employers should pay their employees? I think we've covered that topic on a bazillion threads...

As for #2...what if its a private company? No stock to purchase...and...MOST public companies allow employees to purchase stocks at a discounted rate already. Unfortunately most employees dont. Thats not the employers fault.

#1 obviously isn't viable, jsut throwing that out there for those who think the gov has that responsbility. Which I disagree with.

#2 Profit sharing for private corps. AFAIK most employers don't offer the kind of stock options to Joe Schmoe that they do to their upper and middle management, not even close.

Just FYI...employee stock purchase plan is quite different than options...I didnt mean options...

Depends on the company, in this case they are the same, i.e. buying for a below market price.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

Who sold a business???

Oh, that's right... you were just incompetent as a business owner and put all your employees out of work...

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Please check your propaganda. 12.9% minus 12.1% is not about a 7% tax cut, but a less then one (.7%) percent cut. Now can we trust any of your other numbers?

.129 (12.9%) x .94 = .121 or 12.1% (indicates 6% cut)

.06 (6%) x .129 (12.9%) = .00774, or .008 (rounded up) .129 - .008 = .121 or 12.1% (indicates 8% cut)

.121 divided by .129 = .9379 or .94, again indicating 6% cut

He said about a 7% cut. Looks about correct to me as a tax professional.

For an even clearer (perhaps intuitive example) apply these two rates to dollar amounts of income. You should readily see the best way to communicate the reduction in the rate, and therefor tax, will be expressed in the percentages as used by the poster.

Fern

A .7% just seems a more accurate description of the diminutive nature of the tax break.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: ayabe
Real wages haven't kept up with the increase in productivity, corporations are earning more money by cutting costs(outsourcing) and/or increasing productivity but these gains are being passed on to investors rather than the workers themselves.

Solutions:

1. Radical reassessment of current wages, which will lead to rampant inflation most likely.

or

2. Increase opportunities for middle income workers to purchase stock in their employers at a discount.

Assuming you don't work for Enron, solution #2 seems the only choice.

OK lets say our government "reassesses" current wages...then what? Raise min wage? Dictate what employers should pay their employees? I think we've covered that topic on a bazillion threads...

As for #2...what if its a private company? No stock to purchase...and...MOST public companies allow employees to purchase stocks at a discounted rate already. Unfortunately most employees dont. Thats not the employers fault.

#1 obviously isn't viable, jsut throwing that out there for those who think the gov has that responsbility. Which I disagree with.

#2 Profit sharing for private corps. AFAIK most employers don't offer the kind of stock options to Joe Schmoe that they do to their upper and middle management, not even close.

Just FYI...employee stock purchase plan is quite different than options...I didnt mean options...

Depends on the company, in this case they are the same, i.e. buying for a below market price.

No, it doesnt depend on the company. Options are in no way the same as emp. purchase.

Emp. purchase: via payroll deductions or lump sum, stocks are bought at a discounted rate based the price of the stock at the time the trade is initiated.

Options: Gives a person the OPTION of a particular stock, on a future date not to exceed the end of expiry, at the price of the stock at the time of option (a strike price).

Very very different creatures.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

Who sold a business???

Oh, that's right... you were just incompetent as a business owner and put all your employees out of work...

Which was family. We were lied to and lost life's savings plus $20,000 in secured debt including my Van and trailer which was paid for.

We are edge of being out on the street with nothing. No house, no cars, nothing.

Try again.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

A .7% just seems a more accurate description of the diminutive nature of the tax break.

1. If the rate went 1.00 to .93 the difference is .07

2. If the rate went from .28 to .21 the difference is .07

3. If the rate went from .14 to .07 the difference is .07

4. If the rate went from .07 to zero the diference is .07

All of the above are reductions by .07. But to state therefor that are all equivilent reductions is mis-leading and erroneous. People would be confused by the description you favor.

Most everyone is going to (properly) chatacterise them as follows:

1. 7% cut (Ooops, edited to fix typo)

2. 25%

3. 50%

4. 100% or elimination of said tax

Hope that helps,

Fern

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Who sold a business???

Oh, that's right... you were just incompetent as a business owner and put all your employees out of work...

Phew. All is still right with the world.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

Who sold a business???

Oh, that's right... you were just incompetent as a business owner and put all your employees out of work...

Which was family. We were lied to and lost life's savings plus $20,000 in secured debt including my Van and trailer which was paid for.

We are edge of being out on the street with nothing. No house, no cars, nothing.

Try again.

did you forget to incorporate? Why are your personal assets mixed up in a business venture? Did you take out a second mortgage on your home for the startup funds?!

well the good news is that since you live in America, you get to TRY AGAIN!... and again... and again... woohoo!

Better luck next time!

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Please check your propaganda. 12.9% minus 12.1% is not about a 7% tax cut, but a less then one (.7%) percent cut. Now can we trust any of your other numbers?

Please learn to understand someone else post before you call it propaganda.
If you pay 10% of your income in taxes and I drop your rate to 9% you have recieved 10% cut in your total taxes.
Example: Someone making $10,000 per year:
At 12.9% tax rate they pay $1290 per year in taxes
At 12.1% tax rate they pay $1210 per year in taxes
That $80 less in taxes they pay means that their tax bill has been reduced by 6.2% over what it was before.
In other words they got a 6% tax cut.

However, if you want to look at it your way...
The bottom 50% went from 4.3% to 2.9% or a 1.4% tax cut.
All tax payers as a whole went from 12.9% to 12.1% or a .8% tax cut.
Which means the tax cut for the bottom 50% was double that for all tax payers as a whole.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

now, I know the whole "work" thing confuses some people... so GL!

I'm puzzled as to how people can still believe this junk. It may be true that those who are wealthy had to work hard to attain their wealth, however that does not imply that working hard will make one wealthy. You can work virtually any job for decades and never become a high-ranking manager.

The guys who cut the grass work a LOT hard than I do, but I still make more money than them... maybe the difference is that if I had to I could do their job, but they could never do mine. (unless they went through a lot more education and training)
How hard you work is nothing when it comes to how much you make, it is what you are capable of doing that determines what you make.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Please check your propaganda. 12.9% minus 12.1% is not about a 7% tax cut, but a less then one (.7%) percent cut. Now can we trust any of your other numbers?

Please learn to understand someone else post before you call it propaganda.
If you pay 10% of your income in taxes and I drop your rate to 9% you have recieved 10% cut in your total taxes.
Example: Someone making $10,000 per year:
At 12.9% tax rate they pay $1290 per year in taxes
At 12.1% tax rate they pay $1210 per year in taxes
That $80 less in taxes they pay means that their tax bill has been reduced by 6.2% over what it was before.
In other words they got a 6% tax cut.

However, if you want to look at it your way...
The bottom 50% went from 4.3% to 2.9% or a 1.4% tax cut.
All tax payers as a whole went from 12.9% to 12.1% or a .8% tax cut.
Which means the tax cut for the bottom 50% was double that for all tax payers as a whole.

So, what's that work out to in cold, hard, cash?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: palehorse74
solution: work harder to become wealthy yourself.

Here is your elitist's slapping every hard working American in the face.

Why do you hate America and why are you here???

Shut up, moron.

Here's a guy who just bought and sold a business but he'd have you believe that he's a member of the poor downtrodden class... :roll:

Who sold a business???

Oh, that's right... you were just incompetent as a business owner and put all your employees out of work...

Which was family. We were lied to and lost life's savings plus $20,000 in secured debt including my Van and trailer which was paid for.

We are edge of being out on the street with nothing. No house, no cars, nothing.

Try again.

Please, save yourself and your family some money. Cancel your internet service. Do everybody a favor.