Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
I do have a radical idea. When someone commits a crime with a gun, how about taking that person off the streets and put them where they can't shoot anyone?
Countries with high gun ownership per head of population tend to have more murders. Just saying.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
What a loser... Not only do you have no point, but your thread doesn't even follow the title.
Let me clue you in... License requirement is not equal to a ban. I personally think its good. If the license application (or renewal) is in the works I would hope background checks are being done. There are certain people you dont want having guns. Ex cons, mental patients etc etc.
No, society clearly failed them. We need to attempt to rehabilitate this person, and set up new laws to punish everyone who wants to have a gun. Clearly they must all be waiting for the opportunity to become criminals.
/sarcasm
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,808
- 6,362
- 126
My main point was that City Bans were useless. Which they are. There's nothing to control the flow from neighbouring Cities/Towns.
That said, a National Ban would certainly not be like a switch that immediately changes things. As you say though, in time through wear and confiscated weapons from Criminals the problem will ease. Some may resort to their own design, some will get Guns smuggled into the country, most will commit their Crimes using various alternatives. Gun Crime will decrease though and along with it, so will Murder Rates.
BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
- 13,941
- 1
- 0
Not that I have a particularly strong opinion on the issue of gun control, but I do take except to this cavalier attitude towards suicide. In the context of this conversation (guns), it is sufficient to say that studies have conclusively proven that if people have to take time to kill themselves, they generally won't. In other words, we shouldn't simply say, "oh, these people blew their heads off and there's nothing we can do." Guns are a big part of the suicide problem in this country because they readily available and work quickly.
Please don't start bashing me for promoting gun control, that's not what I mean by the above at all. I just don't like it when people chalk up suicides as something entirely untreatable or something we should just accept as fact.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Yes Haya the situation you describe will be problematic..only hope is enough southern dems join republicans to defeat some of their plans.
I'm not really worried long term only because the ebb and flow of American politics will have laws again like they are today, someday.
I think if a measure like this takes place I will not register my zombie gun (AR10 w/PVS-14 & M4) in case of the proverbial they are 'coming for my guns' but the rest I will.
Screw it! we have all been a criminal one time in our life, at least - this will be my civil disobedience.
I'm not really worried long term only because the ebb and flow of American politics will have laws again like they are today, someday.
I think if a measure like this takes place I will not register my zombie gun (AR10 w/PVS-14 & M4) in case of the proverbial they are 'coming for my guns' but the rest I will.
Screw it! we have all been a criminal one time in our life, at least - this will be my civil disobedience.
I would point out the Virginia Tech shooting boy was known to have serious issues. The records weren't checked at all as I remember it.
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 53,127
- 47,313
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I did no such thing, how you inferred that from my post I have no idea. The poster I quotes implied that American violent tendencies were responsible for the high firearm death rate. I felt obligated to note that the majority of those deaths were self inflicted. I made no arguments about what should or should not be done to curb suicide.
It is worth noting however that there are a host of developed countries that have extremely restrictive gun laws who sport per capita suicide rates substantially higher than that of the US.
Switzerland is a special case because they still have compulsory military service - they all have a very high level of firearms safety training, and a high level of discipline instilled by the army. Everyone gets one rifle and exactly 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at all times.
Israel is constantly at war so the culture is completely different. No point in shooting your neighbours when you're both already shooting at the enemy.
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
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sure it would take care of them. they would be free to hit targets that they know won't have guns. so they would have nothing to fear.
unless you really think that a person who is going to commit a crime is going to turn in a gun (wich will help them commit the crimes). i don't think they care having a gun is against the law.
that kind of thinking is nieve.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
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I do wonder about the decrease in murder rates.
Case in point, when I lived in VT there were no concealed weapons laws. None. I once had a half dozen hand guns under my coat and went to a diner. Perfectly legal. The reason I had them is because I went to a frozen lake where me and a couple guys did some ice fishing and plinking.
Now consider that with zero restrictions the per capita handgun crime rate is very low compared to cities and states which have what I consider draconian ownership laws, never mind carrying a concealed weapon.
Why is this? Because in the culture of VT it's consider wrong to shoot someone. That's the entire difference. You don't go around shooting people, or stabbing them or whatever.
Conversely, watching the news of inner city Rochester, NY I find that this person shot that person etc. What you often find is that if they didn't have a gun they would have killed another way. It's considered an acceptable act.
Now you may argue that removing handguns would eventually make the first choice less accessible, but you haven't changed the mentality and that needs to be "You shouldn't do bad things to people and if you do bad things will happen to you". So for the next decade or two, those who don't get it are armed, and those who do aren't. Even then, the latter will be at a severe disadvantage.
I'm not saying that some regulation ought not to be in place, but I do see that it's more important to some to remove the means of protection for many, yet provide no answer to eliminating the criminal.
A ban is hardly a good solution IMO.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
Naw...we rather have our law enforcement chase down and arrest those otherwise law abiding citizens who have the audacity to own a gun and have not jumped through all the bureaucratic hoops created to properly control, regulate, and tax these people.
A gun owner moves and fails to notify Big Brother and all of a sudden we have a crime....sweet! You know...you just can't have enough laws and controls for those who cling to their guns and religion...especially if it doesn't personally affect you. And, don't forget, you just can't have enough tax revenue...especially if someone else has to pay it.
Sarcasm aside...what greater good to society is being accomplished by heaping on more arbitrary government controls onto its citizens? What are you control freaks so damn afraid of? And where does it end...when people need Government permission to take a crap?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,808
- 6,362
- 126
Willingness to take a Life is fueled by the ease a Gun makes it possible. Certainly cultural norms play into the mix, but Guns make the mix more toxic.
On another website someone linked to an article written by some US Gun Rights advocate who chose to use Canada as an example as to why Gun Control was bad. His argument was that thousands of Canadians Work in the wilderness and are forbidden to carry Guns, yadda yadda ya...wild animals. Myself and others reading the Thread it was posted in had a good laugh at that. It is exceedingly rare that such a situation ever exists that a Gun is needed, even if an animal Attacks.
I bring this up for a simple reason: There's is a hysteria in the US about this issue that does not stand up to the Facts. Criminals will not begin to go on a rampage, because Joe Blow does not have a Gun. In fact, Criminals will no longer even need a Gun in many circumstances. Add in that most Shootings are hits on other Criminals often with innocent bystanders being at the wrong place at the wrong time and it becomes quite laughable that people hold onto this issue so tightly.
So it seems to me that Americans should make a decision to move in a different direction regarding Guns. Here are some suggestions:
1) Registration of all Fire Arms. Ya, it's inconvenient, but being able to trace a Gun used in a Crime back from the scene, to its' Legal Owner, and all the way back to the Manufacturer will help a lot. a) If the Weapon was reported Stolen, then the Thief may be the same person who committed the Crime under Investigation. b) If the Weapon is not reported Stolen, the Legal Owner may be responsible for the Crime or possibly Supplying Weapons to Criminals.
If the Registered Owner fails to report a move or other failure regarding Regulation, don't make it a Crime punishable by Charges/Jail, but make it a Fine of some amount. Mistakes will happen.
2) Increase the Obligations regarding Gun Ownership through Mandatory Training and through Membership in local FireArms organizations that require regular attendence of functions(kind of Swiss Mandatory Service Light). This is to change the Culture surrounding Gun Ownership by giving it more Purpose/Responsibility and less Right, but in a less Ego driven way.
3) Extract the 2nd Amendment and outright Ban FireArms at will. Obviously this would never work as the first choice, but in time, especially as Technology progresses beyond Projectile Weapons, this will happen. It's not a Conspiracy, it's not because someone or the Government is out to get you, it's just that Guns will become obsolete and completely unnecessary.
It's time to move forward and quit clinging to 2 Centuries ago.
a few more great comments
"Please 1000 hunters with 300 winmags w/6x scopes would shut this country down" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. good luck with that.
Gun control in Great Britain is an utter failure? Keep drinking the Kool-Aide. Aside from 2 or 3 areas with particularly high rates of crime (Manchester in particular) - gun crime included, gun violence in the UK is down, and is crazy low compared to the US.
07 USA=17,420 murders (as defined by person against person). - neither figure includes suicides btw.
07 UK = 243 murders (as defined by person against person).
Yes, I know the UK has a smaller population - approx 60 million people, vs the US, somewhere in the 280 M range, right? Let's be generous and give the US 300 M people - so multiply the UK quantity by 5, and you'd have around 1,200 murders......compared to the US' 17,420.
You tell me which country has a problem.
"Please 1000 hunters with 300 winmags w/6x scopes would shut this country down" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. good luck with that.
Gun control in Great Britain is an utter failure? Keep drinking the Kool-Aide. Aside from 2 or 3 areas with particularly high rates of crime (Manchester in particular) - gun crime included, gun violence in the UK is down, and is crazy low compared to the US.
07 USA=17,420 murders (as defined by person against person). - neither figure includes suicides btw.
07 UK = 243 murders (as defined by person against person).
Yes, I know the UK has a smaller population - approx 60 million people, vs the US, somewhere in the 280 M range, right? Let's be generous and give the US 300 M people - so multiply the UK quantity by 5, and you'd have around 1,200 murders......compared to the US' 17,420.
You tell me which country has a problem.
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