And of course, no one can get shot without some mention of gun control...

[bfdd]

Thats what confuses me about the whole thing. There is no way in hell these little revolutions would get off the ground. I think considering what just happened nemesis should be reported for even talking such things.

If the government had to resort to using the military to stifle off revolution, odds are it's time for a revolution. are you saying we shouldn't have any arms and should just give in to the whim of the great and almighty government? I'd rather not. Fact is guns exist, someone else is going to have one and so should(and will) I. Only an idiot would de-arm themselves while others around them are armed.

 

[Zebo]

For some reason I'm thinking the US armed forces would not be willing to slaughter their friends and family on US soil. And don't forget each state has their own National Guard with tanks and planes too.

Depends how desperate they were how it was framed and so on. Russians killed 50 million of their own countrymen Chinese about the same in Maos drain the swamp campaign. I wish I could remember this psychology experiment I saw once which basically proved it's possible to inflict this type of pain/carnage on fellow man under color of authority...

 

[JSt0rm]

Depends how desperate they were how it was framed and so on. Russians killed 50 million of their own countrymen Chinese about the same in Maos drain the swamp campaign. I wish I could remember this psychology experiment I saw once which basically proved it's possible to inflict this type of pain/carnage on fellow man under color of authority...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

[PrinceofWands]

Depends how desperate they were how it was framed and so on. Russians killed 50 million of their own countrymen Chinese about the same in Maos drain the swamp campaign. I wish I could remember this psychology experiment I saw once which basically proved it's possible to inflict this type of pain/carnage on fellow man under color of authority...

Milgrim.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Well I sure hope they wouldn't but to claim some hunting rifles can go up against the US military is absurd and depends on benevolence on whom the revolutionaries/break away states/whatever are attacking. Resistance would be futile if the US military employed all methods of warfare.

As pointed out dozens of times on this board, that simply wouldn't happen. Huge portions of our military would refuse to engage. Any who did would face a sniper from every window. You don't have to face tanks if all the tank drivers are sniped leaving the barracks. Every politician, every soldier, every supporter - one by one from 500 yards. Might take years, but who cares. Time is irrelevant, only victory matters.

There's also the fact that the people wouldn't stand for the type of occupation you've seen in other nations. Deploy armor to city streets, bomb civilians, implement martial law - all will drive popular support away from the government and leave nothing to rule. It would merely galvanize the people to fight to the last man. It would also unify world opinion against us totally. Trade would wither, economies would collapse, support from outside would grow.

That doesn't even get into other simple resistances: refuse to pay taxes, destroy infrastructure, chemical and biological weapons, sink shipping, alliance with other nations, etc.

 

[Zebo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

That's it thank you. Worth a read to those who underestimate the evil men can do. Once you have that + superior firepower any revolt would be benign. Thankfully have a wonderful political process and our leaders show fidelity to it so it's a non issue. You get nuts like McVeigh and that's about it.

 

[Zebo]

As pointed out dozens of times on this board, that simply wouldn't happen. Huge portions of our military would refuse to engage. Any who did would face a sniper from every window. You don't have to face tanks if all the tank drivers are sniped leaving the barracks. Every politician, every soldier, every supporter - one by one from 500 yards. Might take years, but who cares. Time is irrelevant, only victory matters.

There's also the fact that the people wouldn't stand for the type of occupation you've seen in other nations. Deploy armor to city streets, bomb civilians, implement martial law - all will drive popular support away from the government and leave nothing to rule. It would merely galvanize the people to fight to the last man. It would also unify world opinion against us totally. Trade would wither, economies would collapse, support from outside would grow.

That doesn't even get into other simple resistances: refuse to pay taxes, destroy infrastructure, chemical and biological weapons, sink shipping, alliance with other nations, etc.

You get rid of disloyal firing squad.
You get sniped you eliminate areas doing sniping as I said population would roll militants because while militants don't care if they die, most people do OTOH.

You act like this has never been done before? Try NK, Boar war 2, Nazi Germany's march though Europe, Maos china etc. It's actually quite trivial.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You get rid of disloyal firing squad.
You get sniped you eliminate areas doing sniping as I said population would roll militants because while militants don't care if they die, most people do OTOH.

You act like this has never been done before? Try NK, Boar war 2, Nazi Germany's march though Europe, Maos china etc. It's actually quite trivial.

But never in America, with our protections and individual citizen empowerment and access to resources. We don't deal well with authority here, and there's what is essentially a sniper rifle for every able bodied person who might want one.

 

[Siddhartha]

Would the proper analogy be guns are like cars? It is not the fault of the car if a drunk or otherwise impaired driver drives the wrong way on a parkway at night and gets in an accident killing a bus full of people?

 

[Zebo]

Would the proper analogy be guns are like cars? It is not the fault of the car if a drunk or otherwise impaired driver drives the wrong way on a parkway at night and gets in an accident killing a bus full of people?

That's the way I look at it as well. Both are tools, dangerous tools, which I think the need for, self defense and travel, overrides their respective danger. Person behind the wheel or trigger is fully responsible for his criminal actions or negligence not the tools themselves.

 

[Darwin333]

I think his reasons for reading the communist manifesto were out of hatred. He probably draws all kinds of links between that book and present day politicians.

And if his favorite books were far right or even right leaning I bet you would have an entirely different opinion on the reason he liked those books.

 

[Darwin333]

As Zebo pointed out we have been pulling punches. If we went in there and slaughtered 40% of the population it would be a different story.

We aren't willing to do that to a bunch of people that most of us can't find on a map and care little about but we somehow would be willing to do that to our own country, friends, and families? Not to mention the small issue of what leader would want to decimate that which he leads? What do they do after the war with no economy, no money, no infrastructure, etc?

How much of the United States all volunteer armed forces would be willing to wipe out 40% of the US population?

 

[Darwin333]

You get rid of disloyal firing squad.
You get sniped you eliminate areas doing sniping as I said population would roll militants because while militants don't care if they die, most people do OTOH.

You act like this has never been done before? Try NK, Boar war 2, Nazi Germany's march though Europe, Maos china etc. It's actually quite trivial.

There is no question that it could be done the question is would it be? The US is a big ass country, Iraq is nothing in comparison yet they seem to have had a rather effective resistance and the US didn't have to worry about half (or more) of its troops defecting or just plain refusing orders to kill their friends and families.

Hell, you could make the argument that the US government could just nuke the cities that the uprisings begin in, which they could easily do as it wouldn't have the MAD implications, but we both know that wouldn't happen.

 

[JD50]

That's the way I look at it as well. Both are tools, dangerous tools, which I think the need for, self defense and travel, overrides their respective danger. Person behind the wheel or trigger is fully responsible for his criminal actions or negligence not the tools themselves.

He's trying to set you up.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

As Zebo pointed out we have been pulling punches. If we went in there and slaughtered 40% of the population it would be a different story.

Do you think the Soviets were fighting with an arm tied behind their backs in the 80s too, then?

Slaughtering 40% of the population wouldn't do much - it would just show how much we suck and incite more of the populace to fight us. Insurgents aren't an organized army. They are the populace taking up arms, and the meaner you are to the overall people, the more they will rebel.

 

[feralkid]

It looks like his 33 rd magazine actually caused a jam allowing a CCW guy and another to bum rush him saving more lives.

Ironic isn't it, that the fact it was a 33 rd mag may have saved lives as they can actually be problematic if you don't handle the weapon correctly.

No, spidey it did not save lives. It allowed him to shoot 20 people after firing 31 rounds before attempting to reload.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I fucking hate guns, but NOTHING would have prevented this nutsack from doing what he did. Short of making it so our DNA fries itself if you touch a gun.

 

[xj0hnx]

No, spidey it did not save lives. It allowed him to shoot 20 people after firing 31 rounds before attempting to reload.

If the second one jammed than it did. The second, which wouldn't have jammed if it had been a stock mag, and he would have gone on shooting. Having put close to, if not more than 10K rounds through Glocks, the only failure to feed I've ever had is from a aftermarket ultra high cap mag.

 

[feralkid]

If the second one jammed than it did. The second, which wouldn't have jammed if it had been a stock mag, and he would have gone on shooting. Having put close to, if not more than 10K rounds through Glocks, the only failure to feed I've ever had is from a aftermarket ultra high cap mag.

No the high capacity mag did not save lives. Insane argument.
He was restrained before he could load the second, which held another 30+

 

[xj0hnx]

No the high capacity mag did not save lives. Insane argument.
He was restrained before he could load the second, which held another 30+

The insane argument is that a 30 round mag allowed him to do anything two 15 round mags wouldn't.

 

[spidey07]

The insane argument is that a 30 round mag allowed him to do anything two 15 round mags wouldn't.

Takes me about 1.5 seconds to switch a standard mag from my hip. I would imagine it would take much longer with a 33 rd because it's not a natural fit with the grip/gun.

 

[feralkid]

The insane argument is that a 30 round mag allowed him to do anything two 15 round mags wouldn't.

Wrong. He was stopped while attempting to reload.

Hint: that's a good time to disarm an assassin; when he's not in the act of firing his weapon.

 

[xj0hnx]

Wrong. He was stopped while attempting to reload.

Hint: that's a good time to disarm an assassin; when he's not in the act of firing his weapon.

You've never been in a gun fight have you? When bullets are flying it takes much longer to recognize that the shooting has stopped, decide on a course of action, and act, than it does to reload, so either he was completely incompetent, was having issues with his gun (which is what I have heard a couple times, gun jammed, and he was messing with it trying to reload, which gave people enough time to take him down), or was standing in a crowd of people not running for their lives, and waiting for him to reload so they could jump on him. Of those three the only plausible two are the first two.

Regardless, if he had a 15 round mag, but had killed 10 people would that be better than a 30 round and killing 9? No, this magic number of bullets that a gun can hold is asinine, and people that believe that if he had only had standard mags the situation would have somehow been better are delusional to say the least.

 

[feralkid]

You've never been in a gun fight have you? When bullets are flying it takes much longer to recognize that the shooting has stopped, decide on a course of action, and act, than it does to reload, so either he was completely incompetent, was having issues with his gun (which is what I have heard a couple times, gun jammed, and he was messing with it trying to reload, which gave people enough time to take him down), or was standing in a crowd of people not running for their lives, and waiting for him to reload so they could jump on him. Of those three the only plausible two are the first two.

Regardless, if he had a 15 round mag, but had killed 10 people would that be better than a 30 round and killing 9? No, this magic number of bullets that a gun can hold is asinine, and people that believe that if he had only had standard mags the situation would have somehow been better are delusional to say the least.

I'm not arguing any of those theoretical points, John; simply pointing out how asinine and insensitive spideys remarks were.

 

[xj0hnx]

I'm not arguing any of those theoretical points, John; simply pointing out how asinine and insensitive spideys remarks were.

If he was having problems because his gun jammed, and he had to clear the jam, and reload, and that's what gave them enough time to take him down, than they aren't asinine, and I really don't see the leap to insensitive. How is pointing out that a mechanical failure created the opportunity to stop the shooter insensitive?