And guess what type of Leadership Egypt elects:

[feralkid]

It's a little early to announce the death of Democracy in Egypt, don't you think?

Not on this board.

I guess you missed the thread where the E.U. already collapsed, disbanded and Germany invaded France again.

 

[bfdd]

I value individual human rights over democracy. IMO a less democratic government with more individual freedom is far superior to Islamist regime with popular support.

American schools put way too much emphasis the importance of democracy and not enough on liberty.

I agree drizzle, but a key step towards achieving liberty is allowing the individual to cast his vote and allow his voice to be heard. We cannot promote this if we're demonizing their democracy off the bat.

 

[Jhhnn]

So because I'm dismayed at the direction Egypt's taken I'm a ultra-interventionalist Neocon?

I would have rathered the Egyptian people not give the "let the children burn if they're not properly dressed" and "stone rape victims for adultery" party such a broad showing. Such mentalities need to die, and the sooner they die the better. Seems Egypt is going to continue to host the remnants of the dark ages for some time to come.

Nice bit of transference & false attribution. Egypt is not KSA, nor does the Muslim Brotherhood necessarily advocate that sort of extremism for Egypt.

I doubt that the military would put up with it, anyway. Their leadership is Western educated, and have worked closely with the American military for decades. Their siding with the decidedly pro western pro democracy demonstrators is what tipped the balance to oust Mubarak.

 

[cybrsage]

I think Jon Stewart said it best...when has a Brotherhood ever represented anything good? Sisterhood, yeah, but not Brotherhood. Had it been the Brotherhood of the Travelling Pants, it would have been a VERY different type of movie.

 

[peonyu]

No, eventually the ultra-conservatives will die out, but that's not really a function of politics. Can be influenced by it, but doesn't look like things are swinging that way.

Fact is much of the middle east is backward, Islam itself looks down on "inventors" who attempt to reform anything about the Koran. Literally everything modern these nations have is and has been imported from the west, from military hardware to medical technology to the internet. They have created nothing on their own since the late Ottoman Empire. Eventually these nations will "reform" (ala Turkey) or "die out" (ala North Korea) in a sort of geo-political darwinism as a function of exposure to more developed and more successful western societies, but for them to truly transform will take an incredible cultural change given the fanatically medieval mentality that conservative Islam brutally enforces.

The whole "Arab Spring" is the beginning of the process, yes. But unless there is an underlying cultural change to support it, any gains will be short-lived.

The Arab spring is a step in the process of going backwards. I dont see how its part of the process of secularism when Islamics are all being elected, and once they are elected im sure that they will force the children to be brainwashed in Islamic law. Children are our future as the saying goes, and brainwashing the kids at a early age impedes progress. In a generation or two of Islamic law the average Egyptian will probably be as educated [in anything thats not Islam] as much as a Afghani is...Which is saying they know close to nothing about anything other than Allahu akbar jihad..

Even the US uses this tactic in schools and it works. Our kids are all taught that being gay is perfectly normal, i think it is but I dont believe it should be enforced on kids as a fact through out school, let them make up their own minds. Thats just 1 example of many where our US schools propagate beliefs to impressionable children.

 

[Lemon law]

This very question was discussed on NPR, as NPR came up with a maybe more valid conclusion.

We have to understand that the pro democracy folks demonstrating in Tahier square represents young educated people mainly from the cities. A demographic group not all that different from most officers in the Egyptian military.

Yet, with the Muslim Brotherhood pulling in 40% of the early vote, and even more conservative Islamic parties pulling in another 20%, it looks grim for the continuing Egyptian democratic spirit the helped give Mubarak the old heave ho.

But still its not time to give up all hope yet, as the spirit of Egyptian democracy and reform just taught the reformers a very valuable lesson many of them just learned. Namely that demonstrating in the streets and demanding reform is only the start of the job, and what the students forgot is that they have to engage in job two, namely in following up at the grass roots political level to turn on voters and get them voting their way.

A lesson the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic parties already understood, as they were quick to engage at the grass roots level as their voting demographic came mainly from the countryside.

For the first two yeas the Egyptian military will have veto powers, and if the most productive ideas that raise all boats in the Egyptian economy come from the young demonstrators, they will be able to organize at the grass roots political level across all of Egypt and make the needed gains in future elections.

As the young reformers just got dope slapped with the reality of democratic politics 101, you have to organize at the grass roots level to stand a chance of bringing your ideas to fruition.

 

[Infohawk]

It's a little early to announce the death of Democracy in Egypt, don't you think?

It's a little early to assume that democracy (doesn't need to be capitalized here) has even been born in Egypt, don't you think?

 

[PeshakJang]

So the young people protest to overthrow a regime that outlawed democracy, and then the people vote in a regime that will do its best to outlaw it again.

Bravo!

 

[soccerballtux]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/w...gypt-shows-mandate-for-islamists.html?_r=1&hp



So much for the Egyptian Arab Spring. Now instead of a relatively secular dictator we have to deal with a democratically elected Islamist government.

thankfully iraq is nearby.

 

[Lemon law]

It's a little early to assume that democracy (doesn't need to be capitalized here) has even been born in Egypt, don't you think?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A perhaps pessimistic Infohawk assertion that may be partially true.

But beyond that, Infohawk has to understand Mubarak is gone, and he will never come back. And the big losers are Israel and the US foreign policy cred in the mid-east that was gone already even before Mubarak got ousted.

In short, Mubarak got the ole heave ho because his rule did nothing good for the Egyptian people in any way.

But still Egypt has something in common with all nations in the mid-east, namely a water shortage that delimits agriculture and prosperity for all in semi arid regions.

Yet with the completion of the long awaited Aswan dam, big changes can come to Egypt, as Islamic parties and young reformers can compete in ideas on how Egypt can best exploit the changes. As Egypt, almost no matter what, will quit co-operating with the Israeli economic blockade of Gaza. On one hand the Egyptian military is unlikely to permit a arming of Hamas, for fear of Israeli retaliation, but at least Hamas can reassert a civilian economy based on trade.

The independent fact that both Turkey and Jordan have turned decidedly anti-Israeli simply means Israel has no friends left in the entire mid-east, as the past two years has been a complete foreign policy disaster for Israel.

Uncle Sucker may have paid big bribes to keep Egypt and Jordan to help Israel, but now all the political polarization, Uncle Sammy bribing Israeli neighbors is now political heresy.