AnandTech Memory Review Untrustworthy

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,260
16,118
136
I have written several threads crapping on my ASUS A7N8X Deluxe foe crashing in a couple of games. After months, I decided to try my own advice to several people, and set my Geil PC3200 CAS2 memory to 2.5. PROBLEMS SOLVED ! I tried 166-190 bus, at CAS2, and the only fix was the CAS2.5 setting.

I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING BAD ABOUT ANAND, ONLY GEIL MEMORY
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
This is probably very common with all brands, and for motherboards and video cards as well as RAM. The review pieces are "golden samples" hand-picked for how stably they run and well they overclock, and might be why you have i865/i875 mobos routinely reaching 270+ FSB in reviews.

Unfortunately, I doubt that banner ads bring in enough money for sites like Anandtech to spend thousands of dollars a month buying hardware, and even if they did we all want to read reviews before the hardware reaches newegg, not several weeks later.

Reviews based on manufacturer samples without a follow-up comparison against shipping parts is sadly one of the limitations of all of us web users refusing to pay for content. Imagine if all 100,000 AT subscribers were paying $2 a year for the product reviews, just how much off-the-shelf hardware AT could buy. With $3 a year Anand could even hire a couple a full-time employees to work on reviews 40 hours a week.
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,771
7
91
What exactly is wrong with MSI's Neo 865PE/875P boards? They're highly regarded according to reviews by AT and THG. Performance wise, it beats all the rest with DOT and PAT.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
This is probably very common with all brands, and for motherboards and video cards as well as RAM. The review pieces are "golden samples" hand-picked for how stably they run and well they overclock, and might be why you have i865/i875 mobos routinely reaching 270+ FSB in reviews.

Unfortunately, I doubt that banner ads bring in enough money for sites like Anandtech to spend thousands of dollars a month buying hardware, and even if they did we all want to read reviews before the hardware reaches newegg, not several weeks later.

Reviews based on manufacturer samples without a follow-up comparison against shipping parts is sadly one of the limitations of all of us web users refusing to pay for content. Imagine if all 100,000 AT subscribers were paying $2 a year for the product reviews, just how much off-the-shelf hardware AT could buy. With $3 a year Anand could even hire a couple a full-time employees to work on reviews 40 hours a week.

The problem here though is that while it is fairly common for manufacturers to cherry pick parts for review samples usually that is for parts that overclock. In the case of the GeIL ram they cherry pick parts just to get them to meet their specs for review. GeIL is committing a fraud by what they are doing. Seeding the review sites with good performing parts to decieve the consumer then knowingly selling deficient parts in the retail channel that can't even live up to their own ratings let alone some of the overclocking achieved with the hand picked review samples. It amounts to false advertising on the part of GeIL if you ask me.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
I don't know where you guys heard that it was common practice for any manufacturer to cherry pick parts. In fact, most of the time it's not even feasible.

The results we get with the vast majority of motherboards, CPUs, memory modules, etc. that we test are validated by user experiences online (not review web sites, but actual end users).

For example, 270MHz+ FSB is easy for just about any 865/875 board and a good 2.4C CPU. Not only have I confirmed this with tests I've done using manufacturer-sent CPUs and boards, but I've confirmed it with boards and CPUs from retail outlets like Newegg, Frys, etc.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
I don't know where you guys heard that it was common practice for any manufacturer to cherry pick parts. In fact, most of the time it's not even feasible.
Out of curiosity, why not? If a video card manufacturer is choosing 10 fx5900 cards to send out as review samples, why can't they start with 20 cards and keep the 10 that overclock the most?

edit: typos
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
<---Owns 4 sticks of Geil PC3200 Value RAM from Newegg - 2x512MB in one board, 1x256MB and 1x512MB in the other, both 8RDA+'s. It runs just fine at default voltages and timings, dual channel.:confused:
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
I can vouch for this argument as well.

I purchased a Creative GF2 GTS card after reading on Anandtech about how wonderful an overclocker it was. Upon receiving the card, I wasn't able to even come close to the speeds that Anand reached. These companies obviously cherry pick the hardware that they send to review sites.
 

joecool

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2001
2,934
2
81
my experience with geil has been mixed. i got the golden dragon pc3500 matched set. one stick worked great, well above spec. the other stick was doa. i sent it back and have been too chicken to try again.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Originally posted by: Budman
Originally posted by: AnomalousTango
John, and others,

I can run my old TwinMOS pc2700 in games at 243 on this same platform.
OK maybe MSI is picky I don't know, but we are talking pc2700 2.5 3 3 7 vs pc4000 2.5 4 4 8
and the old TwinMOS cleans its clock (no pun intended).

Download CPU-Z and tell us what speed you ram is really running at,I bet you that MSI mobo is using a mem devider,I highly doubt that your PC2700 is running that high.

http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php

Go out and buy some TwinMOS, then you'll believe it's running that high.

TwinMOS is awesome stuff.
 

Davegod

Platinum Member
Nov 26, 2001
2,874
0
76
if a product wont meet the spec, it's faulty. "will not even boot into windows at it's own spd settings unless the memory voltage is
increased" obviously counts as faulty.

if you buy a product and expect it will reach the same overclock that a reviewer got, then you are faulty.

if a product could hit the overclocked spec every time, fair chance the product would be spec'd for that in the first place. Its an overclock, pushing hardware above what it was designed for and approved for.

With regard to only trusting reviews where the reviewer bought the product themselves, how many reviews does that leave you? you think a tech hardware site can afford to buy a dozen motherboards, cpu's or graphics cards for a single remotely comprahensive roundup? at best a resupplier might provide product, noone stopping them cherry-picking either though.

tbh the original post does imply (intentionally or not) blame on the anand review, though later the blame is made clearer to be placed on manufacturer's cherry picking.
 

thorin

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
7,573
0
0
You made a purchase based on reading a single review? (Both your RAM amd MoBo according to your posts in this thread) And we're supposed to have sympathy for you?

Thorin
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Actually when i purchased my dual channel pc3200 GeIL kit a few months ago i based my decision on virtually every review that was up at the time. Must have been nearly a dozen of them. All indicated excellent results and some even achieved some decent overclocks. My problem wasn't in getting it to overclock but to simply get it to run without errors at it's rated speed 200mhz in 3 different mboards. The first kit was unable to do so. The replacement kit was incapable of running it's rated speed as well in any configuration. I ditched it at that point and went to corsair xms. I then started to come across a lot of negative postings in several different hardware messageboards describing a similar experience to mine. the complaints about it became so rampant that overclockers.co.nz who had reviewed it anf gave it a big thumbs up (test modules provided by GeIL) decided to aquire a few retail modules from regular retailers and see how they compared to the samples provided by GeIL. Well if you check the link i posted earlier in the thread you will see that it was not pretty. As a result of their comparison of actual retail modules to the GeIL samples they decided to pull their endorsement of the GeIL ram and to instead war their readers to what very much appears to be a concerted effort by GeIL to seed the review sites with handpicked high performing modules that do not many cases reflect the typical retail modules.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
That's the main reason why Consumer's Report buys all their products anonymously from retail stores. AT should practice that as well, but i guess it's cheaper to get freebies from the manufacturers.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Any kind of part that is binned by the manufacturer and that is a raw component, is fairly easily cherry-picked as a by-product of the testing flow. In fact, beyond mere cherry-picking, there is the possibility of using "skew lot" engineering sample chips in the production boards. A skew lot is a selection of components that are purposely designed and manufactured by the the fabrication facility that test the limits of the design with regards to manufacturability. So you can have a faster or slower skew lot, or one that is higher power, or lower power, or one in which half the transistors are faster or slower than the other half, etc. They are practically required by modern high-volume manufacturing and I'm sure that all vendors are provided with a wide variety of skew parts by their fabs. Beyond merely cherry-picking from parts, you could just package one batch of high-speed skew parts for use on reviewer boards.

This said, I would imagine that the practice is fairly uncommon. It is in the best long-term interests of the manufacturers not to be deceptive - or seen to be deceptive. I am sure that it is done, but I am also fairly confident that it's rare. It is also harder to do with packaged components that are not binned (ie. motherboards) than it is to do with raw components that are binned by the manufacturer (ie. CPU's). Memory is somewhere in the middle. Most memory manufacturers are merely packagers for memory that is produced elsewhere. In most cases, they order, for example, DDR400 chips and package them in DIMMS. They probably have the capability to bin parts, but they are unlikely to do so for mass manufactured parts. Cherry-picking would be a more difficult task, but it is still possible.

I wonder how much more this thread might have been had the original poster not used such an aggresive, abrasive writing style that caused most members of the forums to adopt a defensive attitude.
 

Dennis Travis

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,076
1
81
I agree completely with PM. Look at the title. It FLAT OUT states that ANAND's Memory Review is UNTRUSTWORTHY! That right there is enough to start a war. Another interesting thing is Anand did not do the review. The Topic title and even the message itself implys that Anands test is NOT to be trusted.
 

MDE

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
13,199
1
81
Geez people quit letting one person spout off about crappy RAM that they bought. Let the thread die.
 

jim1976

Platinum Member
Aug 7, 2003
2,704
6
81
Originally posted by: NFS4
I'd blame MSI before I blamed Anand. I had an MSI i865PE board and it was picky as hell.

Check out ABXZone

Couldn't agree more.I regret that i bought MSI neo2fisr. I had many many problems until i put Kingston PC3200

 

Slammy1

Platinum Member
Apr 8, 2003
2,112
0
76
I think manufacturers should reimburse reviewers when they send in samples they bought for review. I guess some would balk, but they'd come around once they stop being reviewed. I thought the review differed from my experience, and I know at least one other person felt that way. But I figure memory is a funny business, some have great some have bad experiences. Too many variables, which is why having a tech board where you can poll others in their experiences is so great. I'd be leary of any memory review at this state of the art. Looking for accidental "good chips" implies there's a significant variability in manufacture.
 

brettjrob

Senior member
Jul 1, 2003
214
0
71
I suggest you exchange your modules for Golden Dragon, which for some reason seems to give people more success than the Ultra Platinum Series. I am running 2x512MB GD PC3500 and it's excellent RAM... ESPECIALLY for $225, which is significantly less than Corsair/Kingston PC3200. It has no problems running at 225MHz FSB 1:1 ratio 2-3-3-6, or 278MHz FSB (limit of my 2.4C) 5:4 2-3-3-6, with ABIT'S GAT enabled.

BTW, while you're at it, ditch that MSI board and get an ABIT or ASUS.
 

MDE

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
13,199
1
81
Personally, you're not going to get far posting links to THG around here [no offense]. Not many people will remotely believe anything off Tom's before seeing it somewhere else.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: AnomalousTango
Jeez all most everyone is disin my mobo.

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20030707/i875p-71.html


I personally don't like Fords but I sure would like a Ford GT 40
Which reminds me, have you downloaded the BIOS update to allow disabling the stealth overclocking MSI put it to cheat on benchmarks? It that is on, your mobo FSB will sometimes be running 10% faster than you think it is.

That editor's choice award was a joke, and a little suspicious since MSI was advertising very heavily on THG for weeks before and after the award.

But anyway if you disable the DOT overclocking evil your mobo might suddenly work much better when the FSB isn't bouncing up and down without telling you.
 

AnomalousTango

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2003
14
0
0
editors choice MBReview

http://www.mbreview.com/neo2pe-11.php


http://www.thejemreport.com/reviews/865peneo2.htm


http://www.techview.nl/reviews/4096


and on and on

This 865PE Neo2 FIS2R is one sweet board -- and I paid less than 140 for the retail package from a brick and mortar vender.
it has everything I need including dual sata raid.

It has a cool feature called dynamic overclocking that automatically adjusts the FSB to the application demand.
It actually underclocks my system when I am just surfing or downloading. I have seen it do this.

Though I have usually built my systems on asus mbs -- and once a soyo -- the 865PE Neo2 FIS2R has found a
home on the central coast, at least until the new AMd64 become resonably priced. Then one of my friends will inherit it.
The Geil platinum ultra (ultra packaging maybe) has been cast out like a furball from a most grateful system.
 

MDE

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
13,199
1
81
But anyway if you disable the DOT overclocking evil your mobo might suddenly work much better when the FSB isn't bouncing up and down without telling you.

Listen before you spout off and look like a moron.