Anands Radeon 9700 Review is Posted! WOW!

[daywalker]

Originally posted by: DefRef

Enjoy it while it lasts.

Okkk... you asked for it

I dont think you really WANT to understand the importance of this day. For the first time after several years, Nvidia has losts its kingship in terms graphical performance and quality. For the first time, THEY ARE SECOND BEST compared to ATI. That really doesnt do much good on Nvidia's psychology now does it? It also BREAKS Nvidia's friggin Microsoft-style monopoly that has plagued us for years now. You know why i never liked Nvidia? Because its products are so damn expensive, at least in Europe (you americans i know, can buy hardware like its candy from your grocery store, i truly envy you, no offense meant).

It also proves a theory that many people had, that the GF4 was actually more of a "boosted" version of the GF3 than a brand new leap forward. You say that Nvidia builts damn good chips, i wont argue with you. But i find it a little bit pathetic, because the GF4 isnt that long out in the market, and the moment Nvidia gets a glimpse of ATI's plans, they say "ooops we are screwed, start building the succesor right away". Nvidia was planning ONCE AGAIN to guide the graphical industry at their own pace, but they royally screwed up.

Even with the realease of the NV30, do you honestly think that we will see any groundbreaking-night&day differences compared to the Radeon 9700? I dont think so. Sure the NV30 will be faster, but not like the way the 9700 trashed the GF4 Ti4600. And until the NV30 will be released, the 9700 will cheaper than Nvidia's upcoming behemoth, thus making it a more attractive purchase.

But the most important thing is that THIS IS SERIOUS competition for the first time after many years and it will make Nvidia change its selfish strategy once and for all. Meaning, a drop on its prices (amen to that) and more competitive products. And actually thats the thing that has me more excited than anything else. Finally things have CHANGED.

So yeees sure i am enjoying it. And so should you. Because we ALL are going to benefit from all this.

 

[AnAndAustin]

We are all going to benefit from all of this. Why so many people have to don masks and grab pitch forks and pledge their eternal undying alegence to a particular chipset manu is beyond me. The bottom line is that ATI have done what Matrox tried to do, cut it at the top and truly produce a gfx card that people will be willing to pay big bucks for. If this was a GF5 chip almost everybody would be saying how wonderful it is. The funniest thing is that, unlike the Matrox launch, I haven't heard of any avid ATI fans touting how great the new card is and how poo nVidia are. People have just breathed a big sigh of relief that this new card can compete. It is a great card, truly the fastest and that's that. Sure the new nVidia card certainly should be even faster, but the better technology is never more than 6 months away, that doesn't mean the best of the current technology isn't any good.

I find it strange someone quoted that GF card prices are steep in Europe, compared to ATI's European pricing (and anywhere outside the US for that matter) nVidia pricing is incredibly cheap.

DefRef, the over-whelming reason nVidia brought out the TI200 and TI500 cards was the unexpected perf of the Rad8500. Pure and simple. The only reason we have a 4200 is that nVidia wanted to close the market at each price segment as much as possible (anticipating Rad9000), just as ATI would have should they ever get the opportunity. Stop being narrow-mided and pro-nVidia! For any company, even including nVidia, to produce a card that's 50% faster and has DX9, AGP8x, great 4xAA & Aniso etc when compared to the top card released less than 6 months ago is a great achievement and great news for consumers. So a lot of 4600 owners will be peeved, but you have to expect that when buying the current top technology. Radeon9700 seems to be great, pure and simple, give them their credit because they do deserve it.

 

[sxr7171]

This will definitely keep Nvidia on its toes. Maybe now we see more reasonable pricing for top of the line cards. I really do think the NV30 will be faster since it will basically have a similar design to the R300 but using 13 micron process allowing it to be clocked faster. However I think ATI respond with the Radeon 10000 at pretty the same time. I have the feeling that the Radeon 10000 and the NV30 will be about equal.

I think that Nvidia might be a little worried now, for once ATI has truly created a competitive next generation product. If we're lucky we might even see price wars taking the top of the line cards to around $275 relatively soon.

For me, I think the 9700 lived up to the hype (at least based on the information we have). The thing is a real beast - it completely aces anything out there in the higher resolutions, this is a card that will feel at home running 1200x1600 with 4x FSAA and maxed out Aniso.

 

[daywalker]

Originally posted by: AnAndAustin<br

I find it strange someone quoted that GF card prices are steep in Europe, compared to ATI's European pricing (and anywhere outside the US for that matter) nVidia pricing is incredibly cheap.

Well i guess i am that someone...lol.

But i meant what i said. I live in Greece and all Nvidia products are expensive here, even when talking about the GF3 Ti series. The prices are really higher than the US and some other countries of Europe and in such extent, that many people order their Geforce's from ABROAD instead on buying them here. Gainward cards for instance, are practically unreachable here in Greece when it comes to pricing. A friend of mine had to order his Gainward GF4 Ti4200 from an online shop in the UK instead of buying it from his local computer shop...

So think again when you say that Nvidia's pricing is incredibly cheap... I believe it differs from country to country...

 

[gururu]

You go Daywalker!
The last Nvidia I've owned was a Diamond Viper Riva128. Thank the Lord I still don't have to buy an Nvidia 6 years later. The only thing I have against Nvidia is that they have so much market share. It is just not healthy.
For a company with so much market share, you'd think that they could lower the prices of their cards! Have you seen the way their net worth has increased in the last 6 years?! Unbelievable.

 

[Flashram]

we're still looking at September at best for true availability, and by then the new nVidia cards will be very close.

From Anand's review:

"Before we dig into the architecture behind the R300 we need to get something out in the open: the Radeon 9700, the first R300 based card from ATI, will be in stores no later than 30-days from now."

There goes your theory.

 

[ceZium]

NVIDIA's market share is vast and I personally belive that in the U.S. at least, the price of their cards is worth it for the performance you get.

 

[DefRef]

Daywalker: Your "Day in the sun" is actually going to be a few months, but it's a useless boast because your getting your panties damp over the 9700 (what's with ATI's naming conventions, like Nvidia's doing better?) being superior to a SIX MONTH OLD chipset!

This IS a game of leapfrog, NOT scissors-paper-rock. Nvidia does a card, ATI does a card, rinse and repeat. IF the R300 and NV30 were simultaneously released and the ATI smoked Nvidia, then your little happy dance would have some meaning, but as it stands now, it's just childish.

If the NV30 leaves a smoking crater where the R300 once stood as king of the hill, are you guys going to admit it or fall back to the standard retreat position of saying, "Who cares about frame rate? It's all about IQ and the spiffy TV tuner my AIW has!" Puh-leeze.

You guys are living in a fantasy world where Nvidia reacts to what ATI does and creates chipsets in REACTION. Uh, have you noticed that Nvidia has been cranking out chips and speed bumps on a six month cycle for the past FOUR YEARS?!?!?

I replaced my ATI Rage Pro with a TNT in Sept. '98, then got a TNT2U in July '99, GF DDR (Dec. '99), GF2 GTS (May '00), GF3Ti200 (Nov. '01) and a GF4Ti4400 (April '02). I didn't NEED half of those upgrades, but I had the option of getting them. I wasn't sitting around anxiously waiting for Big Daddy ATI to give me something to feel good about, cuz I was never more than 6 months from either getting the latest and greatest or the 6-month old card at a bargain price.

Let's see what other droolings need to be mopped up:

Sure the NV30 will be faster, but not like the way the 9700 trashed the GF4 Ti4600.

You're so in thrall to your Nvidia hate that you don't even realize that you've undercut your own argument!!! You say that the NV30 will be faster than the R300, but that since it's not going to be the as huge a jump as the R300 made over the Ti4600 - don't you realize that would mean that the NV30 would also trash the Ti4600 and by a larger margin than the R300 could?!?!?!?[/b]

Assume that the Ti4600 equals 100 and the R300 equals 150. If the NV30 equals 180, does that mean:

A, The NV30 is 80% faster than a Ti4600 while the R300 is only 50% faster

B. The NV30 is 20% faster than the R300

C. The NV30 is a pathetic POS because it's only 20% faster than the R300 and the R300 was 50% faster than the Ti4600. (i.e. You're going to call anything less than a 225 relative score total failure for Nvidia.)

Under your bogus criteria, you're going to argue that the Fastest Card In The World sucks because it's not proportional faster than your card. Using that sort of "logic", a Ferrari would suck because it's not 3 times faster than a Porsche, even though it costs three times as much!

And until the NV30 will be released, the 9700 will cheaper than Nvidia's upcoming behemoth, thus making it a more attractive purchase.

Huh? The top of the line Nvidia cards have been going for $400 on the last couple of go-arounds. The Radeon 9700 is going to be $400. If the NV30 ships for $400 in ultra-pimp trim, where the price advantage. Oh yeah, THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!

it will make Nvidia change its selfish strategy once and for all. Meaning, a drop on its prices (amen to that) and more competitive products.

What selfish strategy? To charge more for their top-end products and less for their slower stuff? I guess basic market forces and supply and demand doesn't happen over in the Socialist paradise that is Europe, but here in the Colonies, companies charge what the market bears. You know why Nvidia charges more? BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! If people weren't buying up their cards, they couldn't charge as much. (Duh.) If ATI was the only game in town, do you think that they wouldn't be like Intel and gouge the hell out of us. Wake the hell up!

Enough of you, time to school up AnAndAustin:

the over-whelming reason nVidia brought out the TI200 and TI500 cards was the unexpected perf of the Rad8500. Pure and simple.

For this fantasy to work, one of two things would've had to happen:

1. Nvidia would've had to franticly whip up the new chips and get boards made within a couple of months in reaction, or

2. They spent the time and money designing the Ti200/500 chips with no intention of actually producing them until ATI forced their hand.

Follow the sound of my voice into the light of Truth: IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THE WAY YOU'RE DREAMING IT!!! It'd been six months since the GF3 had dropped and it was time to do the semi-annual product rollout. Even if Nvidia had to roll out the Ti line a bit early because of the 8500, that doesn't mean that it wasn't going to happen at all.

What color is the sky on your homeworld?

Some final bits: You ATI fanboys can't even keep your rhetoric straight! One person gloats that Nvidia is concerned about losing market share to ATI, when they're STILL owning a larger share and that they took the market share crown from ATI!!! Another person thinks that it's unhealthy for Nvidia to have so much share. Which is it? Is Nvidia too big or losing it?

The Radeon 9700 looks like an impressive chunk of hardware, but then, so did the Radeon 8500 and we all remember how short it's reign lasted and how quickly the excuses for the crap drives started. If they can avoid screwing up AGAIN, ATI can be proud of it's accomplishments....until NV30 bitchslaps them back into their rightful second-place!

Until then, keep dreaming and making up fantasies about how business works and tell each other how being a fanboy makes you good enough, smart enough and goshdarnit, people like you because you have an ATI card!

 

[Judgement]

DefRef, everything I've read from you so far in this post has been anti-ATI. I personally own a Nvidia card, but that was only because it was were the performance I wanted to get was at when I made the purchase. You seem to be fixed on the idea that Nvidia's next offering is going to be better then ATI's current offering, which makes the 9700 trash. Then you said that the 9700 beats a 6 month-old chipset, which means its improvements are no big deal. But, since the 9700 is going to be a few months before NV30, couldn't the same thing be said about that chipset when its released? Big deal it beat ATI's few month old card..

The fact is that 30 days from now when everyone is able to purchase the 9700, it will be the best card available, no longer will it be a card from Nvidia. Even if this doesn't last long, a card from ATI reigned on top for the first time I've seen.

The fact is that ATI has brought improvements to the market before Nvidia has, and in a giant leap at that. When NV30 is released it will trash the Ti4600 just like the 9700 has today, but Nvidia was second to do so instead of "leap-frogging" over itself, ATI has took it up a notch and leaped past Nvidia, instead of leaping and landing behind them. Sure NV30 will leap past ATI, but ATI is catching up and it sure looks like it will be a nice change to have a more competitive market... unless of course being the Nvidia zealot you seem to be, you would rather would be no ATI so you can pay insane prices.

 

[MANKOU]

Anand had written in a review that buying a GF4 Ti4200 is a v.good deal, since the next good budjet video cards wouldn't be out before a year or so. I got a GF4 Ti4200 since I needed the upgrade desperately. Do you think that it was a nice movement after all or should I have waited (have in mind that I don't want to pay more than $200 for my v.card)?

 

[Mucker]

People, people! Please, it's useless to argue with Def as he is the smartest man on the planet....and if you don't believe me, just ask him....

GPJ

 

[Packy]

Originally posted by: MANKOU
Anand had written in a review that buying a GF4 Ti4200 is a v.good deal, since the next good budjet video cards wouldn't be out before a year or so. I got a GF4 Ti4200 since I needed the upgrade desperately. Do you think that it was a nice movement after all or should I have waited (have in mind that I don't want to pay more than $200 for my v.card)?

I personally think you made a wise purchase... mainly because I did the same thing I can't afford to stay on the bleeding edge of computer technology, it's too damn expensive. The 4200 is at a GREAT price/performance ratio right now, so it's a damn good buy. Hold onto it for at least half a year and then see what is around the same price.

Just my opinion!

Now back to the subject at hand... both ATI and nvidia rock, quit bitching people

 

[coomarlin]

Defref dude you're gonna hemorrhage. Why on earth are you so defense about this entire situation. No one here is trashing nVidia, they are just praising the accomplishments of ATI.

I guess if it was up to you, ATI would fold and Nvidia would be another Microsoft. Then you'll be relegated to having nvidia release a new card every 18-24 months.

Ati has released a good card. I'm sure the NV30 will be a good card too. Sit back and relax because the competition leads to better products and better prices.

 

[AnAndAustin]

LOL DefRef, you really are a pregnant fish!

I have never personally owned an ATI card, Voodoo Banshee -> GF2MX -> GF4TI4200. In the UK the ATI cards are ridiculously priced, something seen throughout much of the globe (and hence why I said the nVidia cards are comparatively cheap, comparative to the Radeon cards and NOT US pricing). Just because someone applauds ATI's achievements doesn't make them pro-ATI.

ATI have released a card 50% faster than the top nVidia card (even before factoring in much better & faster Ani), are you really expecting them to better an unreleased nVidia card? This is a great achievement, just look how far away Matrox were, they struggle to compete against GF3 cards!

Of course nVidia react to their competitiors, see if a new nVidia budget card will replace GF4MX with a DX8 compliant card if the Xabre or Rad9000 gives them too much heat.

When some dude said, "Sure the NV30 will be faster, but not like the way the 9700 trashed the GF4 Ti4600" they meant that the new nVidia card will have a VERY hard time beating the Rad9700 by 50%, not as you seem to assume compared to the 4600. Do you really think people only use nVidia cards as the card to benchmark against. Any new card will most likely be compared to 4600 but it is the Rad9700 it will have to contend with.

And then some dude said this; "And until the NV30 will be released, the 9700 will cheaper than Nvidia's upcoming behemoth, thus making it a more attractive purchase." Because in a few months time the $400 rec price will be about $350, so the new nVidia card will have to be a fair bit better to justify its higher price tag.

Some handsome chap said, "the over-whelming reason nVidia brought out the TI200 and TI500 cards was the unexpected perf of the Rad8500. Pure and simple." The TI200 and TI500 were not a redesign of the GF3 at all you moron, I won't educate you, check it for yourself. The Rad8500 beat the GF3TI500 at most stuff, I would go so far as to say it was the better card. And don't forget I am NOT an ATI fanboy, just a neutral like most of the people posting here.

Then some twat came out with these 2 lumps of Horse5hit:

"I guess basic market forces and supply and demand doesn't happen over in the Socialist paradise that is Europe, but here in the Colonies, companies charge what the market bears." Racism, well that's going to make you seem less of an arogant idiot. French: excr&eacute;ment de cuisson &agrave; la vapeur stupide. German: dumme d&auml;mpfende Ausscheidung. Italian: escremento di cottura a vapore stupid. Spanish: excremento que cuece al vapor est&uacute;pido.

"Until then, keep dreaming and making up fantasies about how business works and tell each other how being a fanboy makes you good enough, smart enough and goshdarnit, people like you because you have an ATI card!" You simply assume far too much DefRef, get a life. You really make me think you used to be a 3dfx fanboy, bought a Voodoo5 at its height even though nVidia's cards were better and cheaper just because, erm, well it's a 3dfx card so it is the best even when it, erm, isn't. So I guess you'll be getting a 4600 now, just because it is erm, well nVidia.

 

[Swanny]

I think I might be taking the nVidia sticker off my case soon:Q I never thought that would happen.

 

[Tates]

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

Congrats ATi, well done

 

[GoodRevrnd]

K, some of the ATI nuts here are clearly retarded. NVidia has always been on ~6month product cycle, and you really are fooling yourself to believe every other product is a reaction to ATI. Obviously i thas to compete, but they've always done the revision thing. TNT/TNT Ultra, GF2/GTS/Ultra, GF3/Ti... The only real product cycle gap will be between the GF4 and the NV30, since there will be no refinement on the GF4. (Although one could argue the GF4 was still a refinement, so nVidia threw in an extra cycle.) Anyway, my point is nVidia would have to do this wheter there was an ATI or not, just to keep sales stronger and keep buyers buying. The fact there is an ATI merely makes it more important.

Now I rip on NVidia. For those of you claiming the ATI boys are retards for circle jerking themselves over this new victory, that is ridiculous. Seperate generation or not, it stomps on nVidias current best offering. The amount of lead, hype, publicity, wow, and amazement over nVidia is far greater 'revolution' than what the NV30 will likely be able to offer over the 9700. It may not be practical to compare 9700 vs GF4, but that doesn't mean it isn't significant.

Finally, ATI's scheme does (or did) make more since than nVidia. 7000 = dx7, 8000 = dx8, 9000 = dx9 (minus actual 9000). GF4MX = dx7, GF4 = dx8. NVidia's naming scheme was/is ass, though i'm not happy with the R250 = 9000 stunt either.

All said and done, I prefer ATI. NVidia is just to expensive for me at this point for what it offers (tho the Trilinear/Aniso edge would have made me rethink if i knew of that prior to buying the 8500). You also won't see me rushing to by a 9700, though. I'm eager to see what nVidia offers and the ATI price drop and .13 revision that will come with it.

 

[DefRef]

Judgement: I'm not anti-ATI, but anti-rabid, delusional, ATI fanboy and your post is more typical parsing and wheedling to make ATI's achievement even bigger than it is. (Leave it to the fanboys to make you hate the company that actually gets it right for once.)

Let's take your nonsense apart:

The fact is that 30 days from now when everyone is able to purchase the 9700, it will be the best card available, no longer will it be a card from Nvidia. Even if this doesn't last long, a card from ATI reigned on top for the first time I've seen.

Thank you for proving my point: ATI fanboys have been desperately wanting to be #1.

Your sad dependance on Big Daddy ATI to make you feel good about yourselves has left you as pathetic as the old 3dfx Zombies, ever wishing to be #1 again and eager to wrap their manhood up in the speed of their video cards.

The fact is that ATI has brought improvements to the market before Nvidia has, and in a giant leap at that.

Go find a dictionary and look up the word "schedule". Heck, I'll do it for you! It means, a procedural plan that indicates the time and sequence of each operation, in other words - EXECUTING YOUR GOALS WHEN YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO!!!

3dfx couldn't meet it's schedule and that allowed Nvidia to methodically march down the field into it's current dominance. All the fervent Zombie wishes, hopes and dreams were dashed as every product came out too late, too slow and too pointless to matter in comparison to Nvidia. Nvidia executed flawless and is #1 as a result. 3dfx went away and ATI concentrated on providing CHEAPER (not better) parts to corporate PC builders and building share that way. Whatever...

(You may want to sit down now, because this is gonna hurt and it's gonna be your own damn fault! Heh.)

OK, to end this nonsense, I'm going to use the FANBOYS arguments to prove MY point! (Can a get a blue spot, please?) Some facts:

1. Nvidia announces their new products roughly every six months, in the Spring and the Fall. Not 9-12 months apart, 6 months apart, like clockwork - they haven't missed a cycle in 4 years. Even when the advances haven't been that great, they've been delivered on time.

2. Even the most deluded fanboy is conceding that the NV30 will be faster than the R300. How much faster and what that means is the bone of contention.

Agreed?

OK....AnAndAustin has stated that he believes that Nvidia only rushed the GF3Ti200/500s to stores because the original GF3 was getting whupped by the Radeon 8500. For the sake of this argument, I'm gonna let him have that point because using that logic...

...IT MEANS THAT ATI IS RUSHING THE R300 TO STORES NOW BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY CAN'T BEAT THE NV30 IN HEAD-TO-HEAD BATTLE!!!!!!

Because you guys so desperately want to claim superiority, no matter how temporary and fleeting, over Nvidia, you are trying to avoid the unmistakable appearance that if ATI doesn't get their card in stores ahead of Nvidia, they're going to have to be second-best....AGAIN!!!

Superior teams win by making their plans and sticking to them. Nvidia has set it's schedule and it following that, not the swirls and eddys of what other companies are doing. It's not worried about ATI shipping in August, it's working on what it's going to be shipping in November.

If ATI's only path to #1 is to ship their cards in the off-months of Nvidia's development cycle, then that's what they'll have to do, since they apparently can't win an even-up fistfight. As Judgement himself said, I personally own a Nvidia card, but that was only because it was were the performance I wanted to get was at when I made the purchase. If he was faced with a choice between $400 ATI and Nvidia cards this November, what's going to keep him from using the faster card. (Heck, the best thing that happened to the 8500 was that the Ti500s were more expensive, thus allowing them to win on the bang-for-the-buck basis. Heck, that's why I have a Ti4400 instead of a Ti4600 - I was willing to trade 8% in speed for $150!)

Well, kids, it's been fun clobbering you with your own faulty thinking, but you needed the education. Enjoy your few months of "superiority" and start practicing your excuses for when your #2 again.

=========

P.S. For all of you you called me an Nvidia zealot - check my rig in my sig. Why is there a KT266A-based mobo instead of an nForce? Because for all the hype, the damn things shipped too late and too expensive for my purposes and I wasn't going to wait around any longer. Nvidia also doesn't have a very good AIW-type thing yet (those the buzz is it's coming - I'll believe it when I see it), so that's something I readily concede that ATI has an edge on and in fact, I advise people who aren't hard-core speed freaks to go for an AIW for their systems. How much "ATI hate" is that?

Try the decaf, y'all.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Originally posted by: AnAndAustin
"Until then, keep dreaming and making up fantasies about how business works and tell each other how being a fanboy makes you good enough, smart enough and goshdarnit, people like you because you have an ATI card!" You simply assume far too much DefRef, get a life. You really make me think you used to be a 3dfx fanboy, bought a Voodoo5 at its height even though nVidia's cards were better and cheaper just because, erm, well it's a 3dfx card so it is the best even when it, erm, isn't. So I guess you'll be getting a 4600 now, just because it is erm, well nVidia.

Hahaha, well said.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Originally posted by: DefRef
Go find a dictionary and look up the word "schedule". Heck, I'll do it for you! It means, a procedural plan that indicates the time and sequence of each operation, in other words - EXECUTING YOUR GOALS WHEN YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO!!!

You mean like when Nvidia is releasing the NV30 in August? Oops! I mean...

/me throws more fuel on the fire.

 

[daywalker]

Ok buddy... round two

Originally posted by: DefRef

I replaced my ATI Rage Pro with a TNT in Sept. '98, then got a TNT2U in July '99, GF DDR (Dec. '99), GF2 GTS (May '00), GF3Ti200 (Nov. '01) and a GF4Ti4400 (April '02). I didn't NEED half of those upgrades, but I had the option of getting them. I wasn't sitting around anxiously waiting for Big Daddy ATI to give me something to feel good about, cuz I was never more than 6 months from either getting the latest and greatest or the 6-month old card at a bargain price.

You didnt need to upgrade your cards but you had the option of getting them... You didnt need the extra performance but you wanted to have the latest cutting-edge card anyway... Thats your perrogative.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO ME, i dont like to buy a card from Nvidia and then have it make me buy ANOTHER ONE in less than 6 months time. thus making me feel like a sucker. That 6 month strategy that Nvidia has was NEVER to my liking and never will be. Besides i dont have the financial comfort to change a card after 6 months time. Even if i did though, i STILL wouldnt do it. Its just plain ridiculus. If i had a Geforce Ti 500, i would never upgrade to a Geforce 4... it would be just a waste of money for me. Since my curent card runs just fine all my games, i have no reason to upgrade yet. Thats my rule.

Originally posted by: DefRef
You're so in thrall to your Nvidia hate that you don't even realize that you've undercut your own argument!!! You say that the NV30 will be faster than the R300, but that since it's not going to be the as huge a jump as the R300 made over the Ti4600 - don't you realize that would mean that the NV30 would also trash the Ti4600 and by a larger margin than the R300 could?!?!?!?[/b]

You are the one who didnt got my meaning. The issue here wasnt the Geforce4 Ti4600 in the first place. What i meant (and you didnt understand) is that the performance between the NV30 and the Radeon 9700 isnt going to be something that its going to make our jaws drop to the floor. Both of them are using the same technology with the difference that NV30 has higher clock speeds. But do you honestly think that you will see much of a difference in the games you will play? Both cards are fast as hell. YES. Although the NV30 WILL be faster, its speed in gaming wont be much NOTICEABLE or GROUNDBREAKING like it was between the ATI 9700 and the GF4Ti4600. And i have no intention of buying an expensive upcoming Nvidia card when the ATI 9700 will have more than enough power to run my current and future games. UNLIKE YOU, I DONT NEED OR WANT OR CANT PAY MORE MONEY AND HAVE THE TOP OF-THE-LINE VIDEO CARD JUST BECAUSE IT EXISTS, TO PLAY MY GAMES LIKE I WANT TO. The power of the ATI 9700 is more than enough for me. In my opinion its a product that is WORTH paying for even if it wont be in the lead six months from now. TRY to get that through your head.

Originally posted by: DefRef
Huh? The top of the line Nvidia cards have been going for $400 on the last couple of go-arounds. The Radeon 9700 is going to be $400. If the NV30 ships for $400 in ultra-pimp trim, where the price advantage. Oh yeah, THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!

Speak for your self ok? Nvidia's pricing differs from country to country. Where i live, all Nvidia's top products are expensive as hell. Surprisingly, ATI cards have much lower pricing.

Originally posted by: DefRef
You know why Nvidia charges more? BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! If people weren't buying up their cards, they couldn't charge as much. (Duh.) If ATI was the only game in town, do you think that they wouldn't be like Intel and gouge the hell out of us. Wake the hell up!

I have been tolerating Nvidia's Microsoft style monopoly and Intel pricing for more than 3 years and that is a good thing???? Nvidia always had its prices skyrocketing in its top products and that is a good thing????? Making people like me feeling cheated 6 months after their Geforce purchase and that is a good thing???? You are the one who has to wake up. Because at least in my eyes, it sounds more like dictatorship than anything else. Maybe you have tons of money to spend. But i dont.

BUT TAKING MY PERSONAL BELIEFS ASIDE:
You still dont want to accept the fact that some serious competition will do GOOD to the video card industry. Take game consoles for example. Ever since the XBOX and the Gamecube got released, havent we seen a radical drop in pricing in all 3 consoles? Wouldnt you like the same to happen here as well? To have more options in your hands? Or do you still prefer having Nvidia leading and manipulating the industry on its own pleasure and will without any competition to consider?

Times change. Things change too. Nothing stays forever the same.

 

[NicColt]

>when they're STILL owning a larger share

Dude the numbers speak for themselves, and it's NOT a 'large share' as you would put it, according to these numbers it would be within %10 maybe even less. nvidia will most likely repeat market share loss in Q3 and Q4 and ATI increase it's share, it's quite obvious. If this trend does continue ATI will either tie or be very close in Q3 and most likely surpass in Q4 and become number 1 in desktop, laptop and console graphics by the end of the year.

ATI going up against the nvidia behemoth and actually beating them at their own game is actually quite remarkable.

daywalker, wether they like it or not your post was right on, well said.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Originally posted by: TatesNever try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

Congrats ATi, well done

Worth reiterating I think.

 

[BujinZero]

ATI has maneuvered themselves into quite a position here.

With the Radeon 9700 holding the performance crown and thus attracting performance enthusiasts (i.e. US ), AND spreading a high-performance reputation, ATI can uttlerly hammer nVidia with their other products (8500LE/8500 and 9000 series) in the market. If ATI chose to undercut nVidia's GF4 MX prices with the 8500s/9000s they would gobble up market share, and garner respect and favor with OEMs, laying groundwork for their IGP, among other things. If you don't like that idea, ask yourself this: "would I rather have a GF4 MX460 or a Radeon 8500 (for potentially less than the MX460) in my next budget system?" From a performancerice perspective, the choice is pretty clear. It's like AMD vs. Intel. I wanted a P4, but that Athlon XP 1800+ for $90 at Newegg was just too damn hard to ignore.

The next few months will be very important for ATI. Once nVidia releases the NV30, the competition will be much tougher, and ATI will lose the opportunity to kick nVidia while they're "down". ATI's marketing team needs to step it up and push their entire product line very hard, not because they need to, but because they have so much to gain right NOW.

 

[jhites]

Originally posted by: AnAndAustin

Originally posted by: TatesNever try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

Congrats ATi, well done

Worth reiterating I think.

I knew that eventually, I would be able to trade my All in Wonder Radeon 32Mb in on something.