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An odd thought occurred to me while driving this morning

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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Two Friends



A certain person came to the Friend's door

and knocked.

"Who's there?"

"It's me."

The Friend answered, "Go away. There's no place

for raw meat at this table."



The individual went wandering for a year.

Nothing but the fire of separation

can change hypocrisy and ego. The person returned

completely cooked,

walked up and down in front of the Friend's house,

gently knocked.

"Who is it?"

"You."

"Please come in, my self,

there's no place in this house for two.

The doubled end of the thread is not what goes through

the eye of the needle.

It's a single-pointed, fined-down, thread end,

not a big ego-beast with baggage."
Click to expand...

Well, that's four consecutive posts by you where you haven't provide a word of your own content (five if "Then accept what I say" is ignored). All you're doing is posting Rumi poems.

You're hung up on the ancients. What makes you think they possessed special knowledge of anything? They just stewed in their own, confused juices. We know tons more now than they possibly could.

You seem impressed by all the clever little "inversions" of everyday events and notions. But anyone can do that sort of thing and make it seem more profound than anything in this sorry group of poems you've posted. Let's see:

She said, "Why do you love me?"
And I replied, "Because you ask."
Click to expand...

Look at me! I'm a wise man!

So let's hear something in the undisguised voice of Moonbeam, not this confused surrogate for Sufism.
 
Originally posted by: shira
You're hung up on the ancients. What makes you think they possessed special knowledge of anything? They just stewed in their own, confused juices. We know tons more now than they possibly could.
Click to expand...

Wisdom is timeless. We are more lethal, but not necessarily more wise than the those who came before us.

It is the hubris of a untaught child to think otherwise.

That you think so shows what an unlearned, ahistorical little twerp you are, sonny boy.

Dance, shira, dance! Your impotent anger unmasks you! 😛

 
The beauty of careful sewing on a shirt
is the patience it contains.

Friendship and loyalty have patience
as the strength of their connection.

Feeling lonely and ignoble indicates
that you haven't been patient.

Be with those who mix with God
as honey blends with milk, and say,

"Anything that comes and goes,
rises and sets, is not
what I love." else you'll be like a caravan fire left
to flare itself out alone beside the road.

-- Rumi
 
Love wants to reach out and manhandle us,

Break all our teacup talk of God.



If you had the courage and

Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights,

He would just drag you around the room

By your hair,

Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world

That bring you no joy.



Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly

And wants to rip to shreds

All your erroneous notions of truth



That make you fight within yourself, dear one,

And with others,



Causing the world to weep

On too many fine days.



God wants to manhandle us,

Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself

And practice His dropkick.



The Beloved sometimes wants

To do us a great favor:



Hold us upside down

And shake all the nonsense out.



But when we hear

He is in such a "playful drunken mood"

Most everyone I know

Quickly packs their bags and hightails it

Out of town.

-- Hafiz
 
"If what they say is 'nothing is forever,' then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes love the exception." -OutKast
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
"If what they say is 'nothing is forever,' then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes, then what makes love the exception." -OutKast
Click to expand...

If you had the courage and

Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights,

He would just drag you around the room

By your hair,

Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world

That bring you no joy.



Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly

And wants to rip to shreds

All your erroneous notions of truth


But you have neither the courage nor the wisdom, so you settle for thin faux wisdom of an OutKast track.

That's just self-limiting and sad.
rose.gif


 
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: shira
You're hung up on the ancients. What makes you think they possessed special knowledge of anything? They just stewed in their own, confused juices. We know tons more now than they possibly could.
Click to expand...

Wisdom is timeless. We are more lethal, but not necessarily more wise than the those who came before us.

It is the hubris of a untaught child to think otherwise.

That you think so shows what an unlearned, ahistorical little twerp you are, sonny boy.

Dance, shira, dance! Your impotent anger unmasks you! 😛
Click to expand...
You're argument is circular: You conclude that the ancients had wisdom because "wisdom is timeless." But you're misunderstanding what "timeless" means in relation to wisdom. It doesn't means that wise things have always been known, even by the ancients; it means that once a wise thing is known, it's wise forever after.

For example, only in the last 30 or 40 years has the notion that women are the full equals of men become broadly accepted. That's timeless wisdom. But in the 13th century, the concept of women as equals wasn't even considered.

Rumi was a product of his time just as everyone else is a product of their own time, so he was broadly ignorant about women. Thus, when he writes of romantic love, he cannot possibly be considering the conceptualization of love from a woman's perspective. So his wisdom is limited, and that will be reflected in perspective portrayed in his poems. Similarly, notions of general religious freedom and other personal liberties would have been alien to him. How, then, can he write with wisdom regarding many issues which we in the modern world consider highly relevant?

But, hey, if these creaky old verses do it for you, go for it.
 
Originally posted by: shira
Rumi was a product of his time just as everyone else is a product of their own time, so he was broadly ignorant about women. Thus, when he writes of romantic love, he cannot possibly be considering the conceptualization of love from a woman's perspective. So his wisdom is limited, and that will be reflected in perspective portrayed in his poems. Similarly, notions of general religious freedom and other personal liberties would have been alien to him. How, then, can he write with wisdom regarding many issues which we in the modern world consider highly relevant?
Click to expand...

It's true that much of what Rumi wrote was in part intended to be appropriate for his audience at the time, which includes all of his poetry in a way. In his early life, he was a scholar, and from that perspective, approached poetry as something by which to please the audiences of the day.

His work in prose is much clearer with respect to spirituality, and if you read and understood it, you wouldn't have such narrow opinions.

And as even in some third-rate translations his poetry is widely popular to this day, it demonstrates some timelessness and wisdom. That some won't appreciate it is also a well-known part of ancient wisdom, known for at least as long as swine and pearls.
 
The monkey is reaching
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.
Hakuin
 
You still drive the Caddie, Moonie?

Hey, I was down in the bay area earlier this month. Stayed a couple nights in Los Gatos for a relative's wedding.
I should've PM'ed ya.

Anyway, I don't see any issue about prenups. Voluntary association and all that.

But you're right in essence. Today's conservatives are not conservative. I keep saying this. Look at the adulterous divorcee candidate get the conservative 'family values' support against the dedicated family man candidate. Look at some extremist freak out with lies that Obama wants to teach 5 year-olds sex education when they desperately want to teach those same 5 year-olds about hate, war, and murder.

Morality and ethics are essentially about trust. If I can't trust you to be moral and ethical, then that makes it hard for me to be moral and ethical myself. The famed science fiction author, Philip K. Dick, said (in the book that became the movie Blade Runner) that the only difference between humans and the androids created to be exactly like humans would be that real humans could feel a sense of empathy. Sadly, he was over-optimistic (and that's a like WTF for anyone who's read PKD).
 
been married 28 years... if i ended back up on the market, for whatever reason, i'd (still) have a lot of $$$ in my pocket that i've worked pretty hard for... it would be very hard for me to not protect my assets against the possibility that i'm making a bad decision...
 
Originally posted by: cubeless
been married 28 years... if i ended back up on the market, for whatever reason, i'd (still) have a lot of $$$ in my pocket that i've worked pretty hard for... it would be very hard for me to not protect my assets against the possibility that i'm making a bad decision...
Click to expand...

I would prenup if I was you. I am also assuming you have an a/b trust set up? Unless you blow your money I figure your income is at least 400k/yr based on little tidbits you have said in other threads.
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: cubeless
been married 28 years... if i ended back up on the market, for whatever reason, i'd (still) have a lot of $$$ in my pocket that i've worked pretty hard for... it would be very hard for me to not protect my assets against the possibility that i'm making a bad decision...
Click to expand...

I would prenup if I was you. I am also assuming you have an a/b trust set up? Unless you blow your money I figure your income is at least 400k/yr based on little tidbits you have said in other threads.
Click to expand...


not quite that much in income, but i save a whole lot of what i make and have done ok in my investments...

and that would be my story: "i've done all these other things to protect my little corporation's, uh, i mean family's, money, and this is just the logical progression..."
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The monkey is reaching
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.
Hakuin
Click to expand...

A man-monkey WOULD let go, and would get wet and cold. And learn the difference between reality and mirage. And would give up reaching for the moon in the water.

But man-monkeys seem not to be able to give up reaching for the spirit in the sky. Why do you suppose that is?
 
Originally posted by: Madwand1
Originally posted by: shira
Rumi was a product of his time just as everyone else is a product of their own time, so he was broadly ignorant about women. Thus, when he writes of romantic love, he cannot possibly be considering the conceptualization of love from a woman's perspective. So his wisdom is limited, and that will be reflected in perspective portrayed in his poems. Similarly, notions of general religious freedom and other personal liberties would have been alien to him. How, then, can he write with wisdom regarding many issues which we in the modern world consider highly relevant?
Click to expand...

It's true that much of what Rumi wrote was in part intended to be appropriate for his audience at the time, which includes all of his poetry in a way. In his early life, he was a scholar, and from that perspective, approached poetry as something by which to please the audiences of the day.

His work in prose is much clearer with respect to spirituality, and if you read and understood it, you wouldn't have such narrow opinions.

And as even in some third-rate translations his poetry is widely popular to this day, it demonstrates some timelessness and wisdom. That some won't appreciate it is also a well-known part of ancient wisdom, known for at least as long as swine and pearls.
Click to expand...

How can it be that when it comes to the meaning of existence, the best that modern man can do is the hundreds- or thousands-of-years-old writings of mystics and holy men, when with the same soaring intellect applied to every other area of knowledge mankind has hurtled forward at breakneck speed?
 
Rumi
My Head at Your Feet
_____________________________________________________

I have come to place my head at Your feet
to take in Your love with my whole being.

Even if you say No, for me it is like breaking sugarcane.
I have come as intellect and soul, hidden from all

To take the torch of sight toward the vision and the soul.
I have come like a thief to the king?s treasury.

If I take no gold, I?ll take the news of having gone there.
If He breaks my heart, I will give my life to my heart-breaker,

But if He takes my dignity, I will cling to something else.
Where can I look if He is sitting in front of me, filling my view?

Where can I travel when He has taken the City
of Love?
It is He whose arrow?s might splits the mountain apart.

In front of His arrows, why should I pick up a shield?
I said to the Sun, ?If you can endure your heat,
He will turn your heat into fever.? He said, ?Yes, if I endure it.?

His radiant face brings purity to the heart.
From the stream of His beauty, I take some water to the burning heart

Through the passion of thinking of Him, I have become a thought.
Through my zeal for His name, I call on the moon-faced Beauty.

This ghazal[1] I have written in answer to the wine He left with me.
He said, ?Drink! If you don?t, I?ll take it to someone else.?
Translated by
Parviz Rasti
 
Originally posted by: shira
How can it be that when it comes to the meaning of existence, the best that modern man can do is the hundreds- or thousands-of-years-old writings of mystics and holy men, when with the same soaring intellect applied to every other area of knowledge mankind has hurtled forward at breakneck speed?
Click to expand...

There is no shortage of thought on this, from the ancient to the semi-modern to the modern. The limitation in view begin and end with the viewer. That you're participating, though negatively, in the topic says something about you. That you find it hard to even like well-loved poets means that an answer to your difficulties, as with everyone, can likely be see in a mirror.
 
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
When your chest is free of your limiting ego,

Then you will see the ageless Beloved.

You can not see yourself without a mirror;

Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.
Click to expand...

Oh, Bravo. I'm so enlightened by that.

Now, Moonbeam, time to descend to earth:

What's you name? This anonymous stuff is causing you serious damage. Shall we call you Richard? Tom? David? Mort?

And what do you do for a living? Taxi driver? Librarian? Accountant? Waiter? School teacher?

Are you single? Any kids?

What did you eat for dinner tonight? Are you a vegetarian?

What kind of car do you drive? Heard any good jokes lately?

You can do it. Come on, try.
Click to expand...

You are assuming Moonie tells us the truth when proclaiming himself a dude. Moonie is a hippy chick.
 
Moonbeam, you sound very naive. You've obviously never been in the kind of situation where divorce is inevitable. Remember, it only takes one person to create a divorce, and suddenly you've lost half of your income.

What I hate is when two working people get divorced and the man still has to pay alimony, even if his yearly income is less than hers. It does happen, and it's insane. A prenup prevents these kinds of horror stories that happen every day.
 
McCain lost all his marital credibility when he cheated on and divorced his first wife. That there's a pre-nupt in the follow-up is not surprising at all on many respects, and is ultimately a matter between him and his wife. What matters is whether or not the American people can trust him, and on that, his record for dispensing with the truth during the campaign stinks must worse than his marriage with or without a pre-nupt.
 
I know not why' tis rare to see
The colour of sincerity
In nymphs who boast majestic grace,
Dark eyes, and silver-beaming face.

What tho' that face be angle fair,
One fault does all its beauty marr;
Nor faith, nor constancy adorn
Thy charms, which else might shame the morn.

Hafiz, trans. J. Nott
 
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