An odd thought occurred to me while driving this morning

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Thump553
In its essence, a prenup is a way of determining the potential property division in advance, without the uncertainty and expense of trial.

Frankly, I think anyone with substantial assets (say seven figures or higher) getting married these days who doesn't have a prenup is acting pretty rashly-and I would question their judgment as president.

And Moonbeam, focus a bit more on the driving-you cut me off.

The country is worth a lot more than seven figures and the only pre-nup we're getting from McSame is a Bitch to nowhere. How come his wife trusts him less than us?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Fern
So now you're trying to spin the subject of a marital prenup as something relevent to the Presidential campaign? Really?

Even if it was, which it isn't, wasn't it signed like 25 years ago?

Fern

I just think it's kind of mind blowing that the guy who wants to appoint the next secretary of treasury isn't trusted by the woman who wants to be first lady. And if it's 25 years old why wasn't it canceled? Still no trust after all these years?

I don't understand how you consider this some lack of trust by Cindy for her husband. A prenup takes any decision out of the hands of judges and lawyers in the event of a divorce, that's all. It does not in any way prevent him from exerting any control over family assets etc.

Contrary to your opinion, mine is that the prenup demonstrated some mature and clear-thinking action on behalf of these people.

Why after all these years, and with experience gained, do they not abandon the prenup? IDK, but just maybe it's because there is no need to. I am unaware any need. With that type of substantial assets professional managers are running things anyway. What difference would the abandonment of the prenup make - McCain possibly getting more money in the event of a divorce? I doubt he cares myself.

I would guess that for estate tax planning purposes the prenup is pretty moot at this point anyway (assets are already mostly *given* away, they just exert some control as the grantor).

Fern

 

[dullard]

Moonbeam, are you overly restricting the use of a prenuptial agreement? It appear to me that you are focussing only on divorce. A prenuptial agreement doesn't have to be about divorce at all. It doesn't even have to be about money, property, or any assets.

No, a prenuptial agreement is an agreement about how you will run your marriage. Who will pay the bills? Who will do what household chore? How will you raise your kids? Will you even have kids? If you die, how much of your money goes to the kids vs the spouse? Etc.

Even if it isn't legally binding, EVERY couple has a prenuptial agreement. That includes you and Mrs. Moonbeam. It may be non-written and/or non-verbal. But you have an agreement about how you will respect your wife and how she will respect you. You have probably agreed (even if it isn't verbal or written) to cherish her triumphs and to help her through her lows.

For example, with my fiancee we have a non-written and non-verbal agreement that we'll spend much of our free time together. We agree that we will take walks whenever we can, that we will hold hands at every opportunity, that we will cuddle in bed or while watching a movie. We agree that we won't smoke, that we will eat tasty but often healthy foods, that we won't cheat on each other. We agree about how we approach religion. There are so many things that we have agreed upon before we got married. And that is PRECISELY why I asked her to marry me. Without that pre-marital agreement, I would want no part of that marriage.

Divorce or asset control can be just a small part (if at all a part) of a prenuptial agreement. And there is nothing morally wrong with a prenuptial agreement (and it certainly isn't a conservative/liberal item). A prenuptial agreement isn't necessarily about trust. It can be all about love.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To your other question, they say that love is blind. I take it, therefore, that if it's not blind it isn't love and just some ego infatuation that fades. The lover has maybe gone where you fear to tread for the lover has died in the flame.

Wait a second, "Love is blind" means that a lot of what people call love IS an infatuation. It's when love isn't blind - when your understanding of your loved one is so profound that you clearly see all of their faults, understand your differences, and see where compromises are essential, yet you love them anyway - that's what I'd call real love.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: dullard
Moonbeam, are you overly restricting the use of a prenuptial agreement? It appear to me that you are focussing only on divorce. A prenuptial agreement doesn't have to be about divorce at all. It doesn't even have to be about money, property, or any assets.

No, a prenuptial agreement is an agreement about how you will run your marriage. Who will pay the bills? Who will do what household chore? How will you raise your kids? Will you even have kids? If you die, how much of your money goes to the kids vs the spouse? Etc.

Even if it isn't legally binding, EVERY couple has a prenuptial agreement. That includes you and Mrs. Moonbeam. It may be non-written and/or non-verbal. But you have an agreement about how you will respect your wife and how she will respect you. You have probably agreed (even if it isn't verbal or written) to cherish her triumphs and to help her through her lows.

For example, with my fiancee we have a non-written and non-verbal agreement that we'll spend much of our free time together. We agree that we will take walks whenever we can, that we will hold hands at every opportunity, that we will cuddle in bed or while watching a movie. We agree that we won't smoke, that we will eat tasty but often healthy foods, that we won't cheat on each other. We agree about how we approach religion. There are so many things that we have agreed upon before we got married. And that is PRECISELY why I asked her to marry me. Without that pre-marital agreement, I would want no part of that marriage.

Divorce or asset control can be just a small part (if at all a part) of a prenuptial agreement. And there is nothing morally wrong with a prenuptial agreement (and it certainly isn't a conservative/liberal item). A prenuptial agreement isn't necessarily about trust. It can be all about love.

Do you think that's the kind McCain has, or would you bet it's more about assets? But I like your post and wish you much happiness. I like also the kind of paper yours is written on.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To your other question, they say that love is blind. I take it, therefore, that if it's not blind it isn't love and just some ego infatuation that fades. The lover has maybe gone where you fear to tread for the lover has died in the flame.

Wait a second, "Love is blind" means that a lot of what people call love IS an infatuation. It's when love isn't blind - when your understanding of your loved one is so profound that you clearly see all of their faults, understand your differences, and see where compromises are essential, yet you love them anyway - that's what I'd call real love.

You love them anyway? My my, how blind you are.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To your other question, they say that love is blind. I take it, therefore, that if it's not blind it isn't love and just some ego infatuation that fades. The lover has maybe gone where you fear to tread for the lover has died in the flame.

Wait a second, "Love is blind" means that a lot of what people call love IS an infatuation. It's when love isn't blind - when your understanding of your loved one is so profound that you clearly see all of their faults, understand your differences, and see where compromises are essential, yet you love them anyway - that's what I'd call real love.

You love them anyway? My my, how blind you are.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and disregard the possibility that you're just being willfully obtuse. Unfortunately, that means you have an extremely limited capacity to understand what others clearly state.

Blindness means not seeing. What I described is seeing someone clearly - warts and all, yet loving them anyway. That's acceptance, not blindness.

Sorry you're unable to comprehend this simple point.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To your other question, they say that love is blind. I take it, therefore, that if it's not blind it isn't love and just some ego infatuation that fades. The lover has maybe gone where you fear to tread for the lover has died in the flame.

Wait a second, "Love is blind" means that a lot of what people call love IS an infatuation. It's when love isn't blind - when your understanding of your loved one is so profound that you clearly see all of their faults, understand your differences, and see where compromises are essential, yet you love them anyway - that's what I'd call real love.

You love them anyway? My my, how blind you are.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and disregard the possibility that you're just being willfully obtuse. Unfortunately, that means you have an extremely limited capacity to understand what others clearly state.

Blindness means not seeing. What I described is seeing someone clearly - warts and all, yet loving them anyway. That's acceptance, not blindness.

Sorry you're unable to comprehend this simple point.

Then accept what I say.

A poem by Attar the Chemist:

Since there is no one to be our companion in Love
The prayer mat is for the pious: wine dregs and vice for us ...
If the wine-bringers of the spirit sit with the devout
their wine is for the aesthetics; lees and hangovers for us ...

Cure is for the purists,

Love of the Beloved burned me like a candle, head to foot.
My soul-bird burned like a moth, wing and feather.

The fire of her love smoked my heart like aloes;
then her fire consumed both the smoke and the aloes.

A coal from her face fell into the desert:
both worlds burned like kindling from her ember.

I was to offer my soul to the soul-mate.
The Beloved outsmarted me; I got burnt.

There's nothing left of my blood or flesh, but ash
...............


You to your love and me to my death

 

[Moonbeam]

Rumi:

Some Kiss We Want



There is some kiss we want with

our whole lives, the touch of

spirit on the body. Seawater

begs the pearl to break its shell.

And the lily, how passionately

it needs some wild darling! At

night, I open the window and ask

the moon to come and press its

face against mine. Breathe into

me. Close the language- door and

open the love window. The moon

won't use the door, only the window.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To your other question, they say that love is blind. I take it, therefore, that if it's not blind it isn't love and just some ego infatuation that fades. The lover has maybe gone where you fear to tread for the lover has died in the flame.

Wait a second, "Love is blind" means that a lot of what people call love IS an infatuation. It's when love isn't blind - when your understanding of your loved one is so profound that you clearly see all of their faults, understand your differences, and see where compromises are essential, yet you love them anyway - that's what I'd call real love.

You love them anyway? My my, how blind you are.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and disregard the possibility that you're just being willfully obtuse. Unfortunately, that means you have an extremely limited capacity to understand what others clearly state.

Blindness means not seeing. What I described is seeing someone clearly - warts and all, yet loving them anyway. That's acceptance, not blindness.

Sorry you're unable to comprehend this simple point.

Then accept what I say.

A poem by Attar the Chemist:

Since there is no one to be our companion in Love
The prayer mat is for the pious: wine dregs and vice for us ...
If the wine-bringers of the spirit sit with the devout
their wine is for the aesthetics; lees and hangovers for us ...

Cure is for the purists,

Love of the Beloved burned me like a candle, head to foot.
My soul-bird burned like a moth, wing and feather.

The fire of her love smoked my heart like aloes;
then her fire consumed both the smoke and the aloes.

A coal from her face fell into the desert:
both worlds burned like kindling from her ember.

I was to offer my soul to the soul-mate.
The Beloved outsmarted me; I got burnt.

There's nothing left of my blood or flesh, but ash
...............


You to your love and me to my death

Let's recapitulate:

I say, "Sorry you're unable to comprehend this simple point."
You respond, "Then accept what I say."

You DO realize, don't you, that your response is a complete non-sequitur? Why would I "then" accept what you say when my position is that you don't understand? "Then" implies a logical conclusion; how did you get to the OPPOSITE conclusion?

Moonbeam: Is there a history of drugs or alcohol here? Mental illness? Is life a struggle? Is the beloved for you a chubby little dancer at some strip bar you find yourself straggling into at the end of the day?

Because I gotta tell that this obsession with 1000-year-old writings is soooooo 1960's. As much as you'd like to think "Attar" is some sage, it's clear he was a lousy judge of women. Probably, he went for looks and had a few good orgasms until she got a better offer from Attar the Banker. What do you expect when a man lets the little head do the thinking? And this is who we should be reading for knowledge about love? Oy.

But here's a kernel of wisdom for you --- from me, non-Attar the non-Chemist:

Just because some lines of verse are old, oblique, and sound like they were written by someone inhaling too much incense doesn't make them worth the pixels they're displayed on. Attar was a fool, who mistook lust for love. It's a common problem, and almost all of the paens to love through the ages make the same mistake.

Don't be fooled. They were just as fvcked up back then about love and everything else - probably more so. Modern technology is a GOOD thing. We know MORE now. Why would you think the ancients knew jack about Jill?

Now, tell us a little about yourself. None of this metaphysical nonsense. Be specific: First name, age, occupation, what happened in that first dysfunctional love relationship. No more hiding.

 

[Moonbeam]

When your chest is free of your limiting ego,

Then you will see the ageless Beloved.

You can not see yourself without a mirror;

Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.

Rumi

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
When your chest is free of your limiting ego,

Then you will see the ageless Beloved.

You can not see yourself without a mirror;

Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.

Rumi

And the reflection is that of the image the Beloved sees ME, not myself.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
When your chest is free of your limiting ego,

Then you will see the ageless Beloved.

You can not see yourself without a mirror;

Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.

Oh, Bravo. I'm so enlightened by that.

Now, Moonbeam, time to descend to earth:

What's you name? This anonymous stuff is causing you serious damage. Shall we call you Richard? Tom? David? Mort?

And what do you do for a living? Taxi driver? Librarian? Accountant? Waiter? School teacher?

Are you single? Any kids?

What did you eat for dinner tonight? Are you a vegetarian?

What kind of car do you drive? Heard any good jokes lately?

You can do it. Come on, try.

 

[Moonbeam]

That moon which the sky never saw
even in dreams
has risen again

bringing a fire
that no water can drown

See here where the body
has its house
and see here my soul

the cup of love has made the one
drunk
and the other a ruin

When the tavern keeper
became my heart's companion

love turned my blood
to wine
and my heart burned on a spit

When the eye is full of him
a voice resounds

Oh cup
be praised
oh wine be proud

Suddenly when my heart saw
the ocean of love

it leapt away from me calling
Look for me

The face of Shams-ud Din
the glory of Tabriz

is the sun that hearts follow
like clouds

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
I got halfway through the first paragraph and the noticed the author was moonbeam and decided it wasn't worth finishing because most of

Don't hate.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Shit happens and people can change, too. If you have a significant amount of assets to protect then getting a prenuptial makes sense.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
I got halfway through the first paragraph and the noticed the author was moonbeam and decided it wasn't worth finishing because most of

post of the year :thumbsup:

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
That moon which the sky never saw
even in dreams
has risen again

bringing a fire
that no water can drown

See here where the body
has its house
and see here my soul

the cup of love has made the one
drunk
and the other a ruin

When the tavern keeper
became my heart's companion

love turned my blood
to wine
and my heart burned on a spit

When the eye is full of him
a voice resounds

Oh cup
be praised
oh wine be proud

Suddenly when my heart saw
the ocean of love

it leapt away from me calling
Look for me

The face of Shams-ud Din
the glory of Tabriz

is the sun that hearts follow
like clouds

Moonbeam:

You're not a Sufi mystic,
You're not a monk.
You mistakenly conclude that the existence of the desperate questions in your breast is proof of the existence of the transcendent, but 10,000 years of human misery is all you need to know about enlightenment.

You're just a messed up guy with (hopefully) a day job. You get skid marks in your underpants and you sometimes miss the bulls eye with your urine stream. You probably pick your nose when no one's looking. You fart and stink up the place and hope no one notices. You see some young cutie who wouldn't give you a second glance and you think impure thoughts, but you can't get it up quite as well as you used to. You worry about yourself.

Cease with the pretense.

 

[Moonbeam]

The minute I heard my first love story,

I started looking for you, not knowing

how blind that was.



Lovers don't finally meet somewhere,

they're in each other all along.

Rumi

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The minute I heard my first love story,

I started looking for you, not knowing

how blind that was.



Lovers don't finally meet somewhere,

they're in each other all along.

Rumi

Two lovers, searching, searching, searching. Destined by fate to meet. Recognizing each other at first glance. Two souls intertwining as one in complete bliss. No snoring. No morning breath. No bad teeth. No saggy tits. No belching.

And you think believing this hogwash is being on the path to enlightenment? You think this confusion between infatuation and real love is a sign of spiritual growth?

Why on earth are you attracted to this tripe?

 

[Moonbeam]

Two Friends



A certain person came to the Friend's door

and knocked.

"Who's there?"

"It's me."

The Friend answered, "Go away. There's no place

for raw meat at this table."



The individual went wandering for a year.

Nothing but the fire of separation

can change hypocrisy and ego. The person returned

completely cooked,

walked up and down in front of the Friend's house,

gently knocked.

"Who is it?"

"You."

"Please come in, my self,

there's no place in this house for two.

The doubled end of the thread is not what goes through

the eye of the needle.

It's a single-pointed, fined-down, thread end,

not a big ego-beast with baggage."

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
I got halfway through the first paragraph and the noticed the author was moonbeam and decided it wasn't worth finishing because most of

Your loss....

-Robert

 

[Madwand1]

Sweet maid, if thou would'st charm my sight,
And bid these arms thy neck infold;
That rosy cheek, that lily hand
Would give thy poet more delight
Than all Bocara's vaunted gold,
Than all the gems of Samarcand.

Hafiz, trans. W. Jones

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Madwand1
Sweet maid, if thou would'st charm my sight,
And bid these arms thy neck infold;
That rosy cheek, that lily hand
Would give thy poet more delight
Than all Bocara's vaunted gold,
Than all the gems of Samarcand.

Hafiz, trans. W. Jones

You'll note that the focus is purely on the physical:

charm my sight
infold thy neck in these arms
rosy cheek
lily hand

Nothing about his mind being enthralled by her intelligence, interests, ideas.

These so-called mystics were just as hung up on looks as 21st-century guys.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: shira
These so-called mystics were just as hung up on looks as 21st-century guys.

No, you're just being dense about the topic.