An just mid-east peace may be up to the USA.

[GuitarDaddy]

Peace in the mideast is up to the residents! Not the US

 

[Lemon law]

Peace in the mideast is up to the residents! Not the US

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Maybe you didn't read the article, and or you may not be thinking.

But as long as the USA subsidizes Israeli behavior to the tine of $14.000 per Israeli resident, the USA is directly involved.

I would tend to agree that the USA should simply cease all our foreign aid to Israel and the surrounding Arab States, but until we do, current US policy tends to prevent peace in the Mid-east.

But even then there is a fast approaching decision point for Israel and the rest of the world. Namely will Israel and the Netanyuhu government extend the settlement freeze past 9/27/10. If not there is almost no sense having peace talks. We have been there done that, since 1992, and at the Annapolis peace conference too. All that has lead to Israel talking and talking while extending control of disputed territories.

If Netanyuhu refuses to extend the settlement freeze, it very likely world opinion will turn decidedly anti-Israeli. But will Obama have the political will to suspend US aid to Israel until the settlement freeze is reimposed?

Since its nearly morning in Israel now, only 22 shopping days left to find out.

Handicapping Netanyuhu is the fact his party's grip on power is largely dependent on Israeli settler parties who almost all oppose an extension of the settlement freeze. And if Netanyuhu grants an extension, his government may collapse, and will likely be replaced by the more negotiations friendly Kadima party.

The other problem lies with Abbas and Fatah who will almost certainly withdraw from the talks failing a settlement freeze. Maybe not an Israeli worry, but it will become a very big problem if the people in the West Bank decide, since renouncing violence gets them no where, it may be time to replace Fatah with Hamas. And it may become a total mideast bloodbath if Jordon opens its borders to Arab funded weapons. Putting the lives of some 300,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank under immediate peril as a worse case scenario. And then Israel would retaliate making the rape of Lebanon and Gaza look small in comparison.

After that things could get really ugly as the only possible solution will be to get a Jewish homeland out of the mid-east.

If I do not miss my guess's and fears, there is a lot riding on these peace talks. Not just for Israel and the Palestinian people, but for the entire world.

 

[JEDIYoda]

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In terms of answering the Israel wants to go away question, that is childishly easy to prove. After all Israel has a total economic embargo and blockade on Hamas ever since Hamas was voted in in 2006.

Israel does not have to say it when they demonstrate what their 100% unified national government policy is in the total blockade of Gaza and Hamas. Things are not a heck of a lot better in the West Bank, as Israel controls everything.

But now that the Palestinian people are split in two, we have a contest of Palestinian ideas.

Hamas is willing to use violence to oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

Fatah in the West Bank renounces violence as a legitimate means to oppose the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

And as we can see, neither Palestinian idea works.

As I stated show a recent reputable link from an Israeli official......you can`t!!

yet you think that in your twisted logic that because of past actions your stinking false statement is true??

All you have to do is post one measly link......
Nobody cares about your twisted viewpoint........
Just the fact that both sides well...Abbas and Israel are attempting to talk show you have no clue!!

You really are funny when you call the palestinian people peacrful and desiring peace.......rofl....

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

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But as long as the USA subsidizes Israeli behavior to the tine of $14.000 per Israeli resident, the USA is directly involved.

The Palestinian Territories have a bit less than 4 million people. In 2009 the US gave $500 million to the Palestinians. $550 million was slated for this year.

Israel has somewhat less than 8 million people and received @ 2 billion dollars, much of which was for military contracts for equipment built by US companies.

Sorry, but there's not a huge disparity in financial aid between the two, except that a majority of US aid to Israel goes back into US coffers.

I would tend to agree that the USA should simply cease all our foreign aid to Israel and the surrounding Arab States, but until we do, current US policy tends to prevent peace in the Mid-east.

Thank goodness you're not in politics because you seemingly don't have any clue as to why that would be a really, really bad idea.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I would tend to agree that the USA should simply cease all our foreign aid to Israel and the surrounding Arab States, but until we do, current US policy tends to prevent peace in the Mid-east.

You can bet your mothers stock in the Trojan company that will never happen!!

There are so many reasons why that is not ever going to happen.

besides one of the main reasons -- which is quite a bit of that aid comes right back to us in terms of miltary contracts...etc

TastesLikeChicken has an excellent grasp on things --
The Palestinian Territories have a bit less than 4 million people. In 2009 the US gave $500 million to the Palestinians. $550 million was slated for this year.

Israel has somewhat less than 8 million people and received @ 2 billion dollars, much of which was for military contracts for equipment built by US companies.

Sorry, but there's not a huge disparity in financial aid between the two, except that a majority of US aid to Israel goes back into US coffers.

 

[Infohawk]

The Palestinian Territories have a bit less than 4 million people. In 2009 the US gave $500 million to the Palestinians. $550 million was slated for this year.

Israel has somewhat less than 8 million people and received @ 2 billion dollars, much of which was for military contracts for equipment built by US companies.

Sorry, but there's not a huge disparity in financial aid between the two, except that a majority of US aid to Israel goes back into US coffers.


Thank goodness you're not in politics because you seemingly don't have any clue as to why that would be a really, really bad idea.

Israel getting 4 times as much seems like a pretty big difference. And your description of "US conffers" sounds a lot like corporate welfare.

 

[Freshgeardude]

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After all Israel has a total economic embargo and blockade on Hamas ever since Hamas was voted in in 2006.

WOAH, did I miss a news article then? Did Israel go to a full embargo and blockade now? or are they still letting in all types of things in nowadays, and they let in things before

Israel does not have to say it when they demonstrate what their 100% unified national government policy is in the total blockade of Gaza and Hamas. Things are not a heck of a lot better in the West Bank, as Israel controls everything.

Id like to see the economy of the west bank compared to gaza. I wonder who is doing better

But now that the Palestinian people are split in two, we have a contest of Palestinian ideas.

Hamas is willing to use violence to oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

whihc you obviously dont condemn

Fatah in the West Bank renounces violence as a legitimate means to oppose the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

and look, we have peace talks starting up, although i think abbas will sink it into a hole on every issue

And as we can see, neither Palestinian idea works.


yea, when you have hamas blowing up civilians as a political move, and fatah wanting to grab everything in sight, obviously things arent going to work.

i do have more faith in fatah than i do with hamas though

 

[Lemon law]

Exactly the kind of rhetoric I would expect from JEDIy, spin spin and ignore there are at least two sides to the story.

Of course I condemn the violence on all sides with Israel certainly the most violent, but does it really matter how loudly you and I condemn violence? Its been the one constant for both Israelis and Palestinians since 1948 and before, and violence will certainly continue until some measure of justice is restored for all sides.

But going back to the original question, yes Israel hope Hamas will go away, and their blockade of Gaza proves it.

But at the end of the day, Hamas will not go away and neither will Israel. So its unrealistic to have the fantasy for either Hamas or Israel.

But in terms of Behavior modification, one would think Israel would start making concessions to Abbas to encourage the example of Palestinian non violence. But as we found out at the Annapolis conference, the only reward Israel gave to Fatah in the West Bank is more settlements, more Israeli checkpoints, and more carving up of disputed lands.

Somewhat proving to any one who is unbiased that Israeli rhethoric is empty. The proof of a nation is not in their talk, its in their actions.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Israel getting 4 times as much seems like a pretty big difference. And your description of "US conffers" sounds a lot like corporate welfare.

Israel has over twice the population and at least Israel pretends to be our friend. We are giving half a billion dollars each year to a group of people who don't really like the US very much. Not only that, but the Palestinians are among the largest per capita recipients of foreign aid worldwide.

As far as "corporate welfare" from our financial aid to Israel, that has been going on for decades and no mix of administrations, Rep or Dem, has ever changed that to any significant degree.

 

[JEDIYoda]

But at the end of the day, Hamas will not go away and neither will Israel. So its unrealistic to have the fantasy for either Hamas or Israel.

So what you are saying is that Peace is unrealistic??? hmmm

 

[JEDIYoda]

But in terms of Behavior modification, one would think Israel would start making concessions

You are a real work of art.......

Of course you have to have palestinian blood in your lineage....thats the only way with a straight face you can possibly expect israel to keep on making concessions.

What does israel get out of this?

More bombings perhaps?
More of hamas saying we cannot control our people?
More of hamas stockpiling weapons in the name of anihilating Israel?


You can deny it all you want but one of your parents had to be Palestinian!!

 

[Darwin333]

Nit linked in is today's opening peace talks where Netanyuhu and Abbas agreed to meet again on 9/14 in Egypt this time.

But I do link in an article I found in the NYT's with the thesis, that without some big changes in Israel, peace will be impossible.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...rs/no-chance-of-peace-with-settlements-around

But the three main points made seem to be, Israeli settlers are a deliberate products of the Israeli government, that the USA has failed to frown on that Israeli policy is the main problem in getting to a peace, and that until the USA quits aiding Israel in its settler policy, peace will be impossible to find. And there are some interesting reader comments
after the article.

Peace is never impossible to obtain. Its simply a question of how it is obtained.

Personally I think peace will eventually be achieved in the region but judging from the history of the region it will, imo, probably come from "scorched earth" (not necessarily mushroom clouds, albeit possibly, but total and complete domination of one side or the other). The question now is, whose earth?

 

[piasabird]

It is possible to keep a peace through force of arms, but it is a lot harder to change their hearts and to banish their hatred. Just look at the soviet union.

 

[Lemon law]

JEDIToda states, "Of course you have to have palestinian blood in your lineage....thats the only way with a straight face you can possibly expect israel to keep on making concessions." Other than me asking what real concessions Israel has ever really made, lets talk about bias.

JediYoda seems to justify bias by family linage. It seemingly works for you, but as for me, I would rather be unbiased regardless of family linage. And because I apply the American values of separation of Church and State, equal rights for all under the law, and no discrimination due to racial ancestry, that leaves Israel, Fatah, Hamas, and the surrounding Arab states as well short of meeting my standards of justice which is still an universal human rights issue. So I start out with the unbiased standard that all parties involved in the mid-east peace process start out with a huge historical record of bad behavior, the past cannot be changed, and now we need to move forward and move to restoring some balance of justice that can be a win for all parties.

I only seem to be pro-Palestinian to you because I am not so pro Israeli biased as to be unable to see the huge injustices Israel has committed and still commits. As for you and other pro-Israeli fan clubbers, you cannot see the set of wrongs Israel commits but see with crystal clarity all the wrongs committed against Israel.

So by all means JEDIYoda, if you want to state why you are biased, admit your own bias, does it really matter why you are biased? But you can justify your own bias by family linage or because the tooth fairy told you to or any other reason, but it still adds up to you are biased.

As for me, and we already have had this discussion already, I happen to be basically 100% Scandinavian. To my knowledge, I don't have a drop of Palestinian blood. I do have one Jewish grandmother, making my father technically a full blooded Jew, but not a practicing Jew. Nor was he a practicing Christian either. When I grew up in a University environment, us children didn't have time for religious discrimination of any kind. And our parents would have dumped on us if we ever did. Because University research and careers lump a wide variety of professors of all faiths together in various specialty areas, and because they are often so specialized, they have to rely on professors in other specialties to solve problems they are untrained in. And in fact its was the great Paul Airdos, a classic wondering Jew, who greatly aided my father who could prove marvelous things if my father could just prove one theorem. And the great Airdos, from another specialty knocked the problem off quickly, making my daddy one of the 438 people in the world with an Airdos number of 1. But quite a few Christians, Muslims, Jews, and atheists achieved the same distinction. One of my boyhood friends emigrated to Israel, one of the greatest human beings I ever knew was Jewish, and I don't give a damn what someone's religious leanings are.

What is being judged here are the collective behaviors of groups of people, and as far as I am concerned, one human being is as valuable as any other.

 

[nick1985]

I see Israeli fan clubbers are having a kill the messenger field day.

STFU you stupid Hamas fan clubber

 

[nick1985]

TERRORIZE others after the end of the Holocaust? huh? is that what you said?

You guys are so lost.. you constantly see Israelis as sweet little doves.. who haven't used and been terrorists all the time to their neighbors

When they moved there.. the Jewish Terrorists murdered the first ever peacekeeper sent to the region.. now who wants peace??

Get your suicide vest yet?

 

[Lemon law]

Darwin333 states, "Peace is never impossible to obtain. Its simply a question of how it is obtained.

Personally I think peace will eventually be achieved in the region but judging from the history of the region it will, imo, probably come from "scorched earth" (not necessarily mushroom clouds, albeit possibly, but total and complete domination of one side or the other). The question now is, whose earth? "

Maybe a good current description of Israel hegemony at the present time. But has it brought any peace to the mid-east or Israel?

And if we were really just dealing with the some 6 million Israel Jews and the 3 million plus Palestinians in some sort of vacuum, it might be solved by removing 3 million plus Palestinians elsewhere. But add in all the Arab states that now have far more than innate antisemitism reasons to despise Israel. And then its quite clear that any one side dominating the other solution is not viable. And if anyone is crazy enough to think one side dominating the other will work, then in the fullness of time, its Israelis that will end up being driven into the sea by Arabs who outnumber them by some 50 to one.

And then we have that other apartheid State example of South Africa. As the white minority continued to rule South Africa with an iron hand while totally discriminating against the black minority with universal exploitation. Until the world basically put an economic embargo that forced the white minority to grant equal voting rights to blacks. After that a governmental change was immediate, and white on black discrimination was no longer possible. But because the New South Africa leadership of Nelson Mandella did not allow the majority blacks to discriminate against whites, the larger world ended up with peace in South Africa. And to a large extent, the same may be the only viable solution for Israel.

Human beings have always proved, that with justice comes forgiveness of past sins.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Darwin333 states, "Peace is never impossible to obtain. Its simply a question of how it is obtained.

Personally I think peace will eventually be achieved in the region but judging from the history of the region it will, imo, probably come from "scorched earth" (not necessarily mushroom clouds, albeit possibly, but total and complete domination of one side or the other). The question now is, whose earth? "

Maybe a good current description of Israel hegemony at the present time. But has it brought any peace to the mid-east or Israel?

And if we were really just dealing with the some 6 million Israel Jews and the 3 million plus Palestinians in some sort of vacuum, it might be solved by removing 3 million plus Palestinians elsewhere. But add in all the Arab states that now have far more than innate antisemitism reasons to despise Israel. And then its quite clear that any one side dominating the other solution is not viable. And if anyone is crazy enough to think one side dominating the other will work, then in the fullness of time, its Israelis that will end up being driven into the sea by Arabs who outnumber them by some 50 to one.

And then we have that other apartheid State example of South Africa. As the white minority continued to rule South Africa with an iron hand while totally discriminating against the black minority with universal exploitation. Until the world basically put an economic embargo that forced the white minority to grant equal voting rights to blacks. After that a governmental change was immediate, and white on black discrimination was no longer possible. But because the New South Africa leadership of Nelson Mandella did not allow the majority blacks to discriminate against whites, the larger world ended up with peace in South Africa. And to a large extent, the same may be the only viable solution for Israel.

Human beings have always proved, that with justice comes forgiveness of past sins.

Here we go again....the Aparthied BS....rofl.....

 

[nick1985]

Here we go again....the Aparthied BS....rofl.....

I think he is a robot

 

[Lemon law]

I think he is a robot

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At least as a robot I respond to the illogical in your posts, as robotic Nick, unable to summon up the logic to rebut me, continues to try to kill the messenger as his sole strategy of in denial of reality.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I love how you keep saying "I am the messenger" but the only reason you are even posting this shit is to try and start a debate.


All this whole charade you are playing is to beat around the bush that you dont even know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the israeli- palestinain conflict

 

[Lemon law]

Now FGD, for lack of any logic comes out with, "All this whole charade you are playing is to beat around the bush that you dont even know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the israeli- palestinain conflict."

As if, FGD therefore knows his ass from a scoop shovel by making that statement?

At the end of the day, Anand tech P&N should be a place for honest debate. I do not flatter myself that I somehow drive the world debate on the Israeli Palestinian conflict, but I still hope that I might help others see how events will probably enfold
as a larger world struggles with the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

As for various Israeli fan clubbers including FGD, they flatter themselves if they think they can change anything by denial or to say to Netanyuhu, you are doing a fine job Netty.

I am just saying, in the fullness of time, I am far more likely to be proved correct. But if these current peace talks do not proceed to a just mid-east peace, Israel may have hell to pay.

Think about it, because the present Israeli hard line strategy is simply not long term viable. The larger hope is to avoid a bloodbath that may be coming and find a win win win for all sides.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I am far more likely to be proved correct

haha and this is exactly why people think you are delusional.


every statement you have made predicting the future of israel has been wrong.

where is the worldwide embargo? the disconnecting US ties? the UN sanctions? the worldwide pressure to lift the gaza blockade?

has anything negatively last this long on israel from the may event?

hmm turkey still calls israel an ally....

you are in fact the perfect example of predicting the incorrect and i on the other hand have been proven right (afaik) and if not please tell me.

i predicted same ties with the US and they actually seem stronger right now than 6 months ago.

i predicted that the world will ignore the may event and except turkey and the un, i hear nothing of it.

the gaza blockade still stands



so stop being full of yourself

 

[nick1985]

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At least as a robot I respond to the illogical in your posts, as robotic Nick, unable to summon up the logic to rebut me, continues to try to kill the messenger as his sole strategy of in denial of reality.

Hamas supporter

 

[Lemon law]

So Nick still thinks I am a Hamas supporter. Sadly, Hamas and violent resistance to being occupied is not only a very old idea, as an idea or strategy, it cannot be killed.

The Palestinians are presently split, one side tries non violence and gets carved up and settlements for itself, and the other side tries a more violent resistance, and at least does not get Israeli settlements.

And if violence and non violence does not work as a full range of options for Palestinians, the question is what idea will work for the Palestinians? Like the American slavery question, its more likely to be an external source that frees the Palestinians.

And to some extent Israel is gambling they can continue to basically repress the Palestinians and Israel may well lose that gamble if these peace talks lead no where.

Meanwhile the Gaza aid flotillas stop, while the world waits for the results of the peace talks.

But I am predicting that world opinion will turn decidedly anti-Israel if the settlement freeze is not extended by the 26'th of this month. Nick is predicting that it will not.

Time and events will prove who is correct.