An just mid-east peace may be up to the USA.

[woolfe9999]

you are inundated with western media..

how many reports do you see directly from palestinian territory? oh.. how many again was that?

I see them all the time. It's called the San Francisco Chronicle, and the entire British press.

- wolf

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More poor logic Hayabusa, yes we should include Sarah Palin in mid-east peace talks when she becomes the democratically elected leader of 50% of the Palestinian people and not before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I look up "President of Palestine" I get Abbas. How many Presidents does Palestine have?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I see them all the time. It's called the San Francisco Chronicle, and the entire British press.

- wolf

I think he means "Why don't you just believe Hamas press reports? They are the only Truth out there."

 

[dahunan]

I think he means "Why don't you just believe Hamas press reports? They are the only Truth out there."

no.. I am saying the people in the usa say just the opposite of what you just said..

Our media reports whose side most often?

Can you tell us what IDF used to do to the home of a mother and father of a suicide bomber? (mind you.. 15 year old kids in USA are never home and the parents have no idea what they are doing)

Can you tell us what happened to homes around that families?

^^ Were those civilized actions?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

no.. I am saying the people in the usa say just the opposite of what you just said..

Our media reports whose side most often?

Can you tell us what IDF used to do to the home of a mother and father of a suicide bomber? (mind you.. 15 year old kids in USA are never home and the parents have no idea what they are doing)

Can you tell us what happened to homes around that families?

^^ Were those civilized actions?

I can tell you that I've seen some nasty things and never is one side wholly innocent. That said, there are a few things about Palestine that makes this a fruitless exercise and it's not Israel, it's internal politics.

According to Palestinian law there isn't a shared Presidency, and that was my point to LL. Abbas claims that he's the legit deal, but Hamas says it's Aziz Duwaik, and there's been considerable fighting amongst the Palestinians about this.

It is an historical fact that when serious talks begin Palestinian factions begin blowing up things when it appears that their political rivals may gain the upper hand. If Abbas is unable to deliver, that looks good for Hamas.

You can look at what happened when Carter was President if you like, and you'll see the same thing.

The problem is that the greatest concern of many in Palestine is securing power over the welfare of the people. Arafat was a master of this. He kept people dancing by masterfully plucking the strings of the various political instruments of his day. By keeping the country in chaos, he kept power, and that was his chief goal.

Now that does not make Palestine unique, or it's people evil. What it does mean is that yet again they are betrayed by scoundrels more interested in being The Boss than finding a solution.

Note I didn't let Israel off the hook for anything, but I am saying that when your own people are your enemy, there can be no peace.

 

[Infohawk]

US... solve middle-eastern crisis?

 

[Freshgeardude]

LOL I like to see my posts get overlooked.

LL and Dahuna got nothing on me. you guys are clueless when it comes to the middle east, because neither have ever been to israel before and actually see the issues there, nor have you had a friend die from a suicide bomb.

I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet.

One thing is to talk behind a computer, reading the internet and coming to conclusions, the other is first hand experience.

 

[Freshgeardude]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is exactly not the thinking from various news sources who point out that Hamas is somewhat motivated to tell Fatah and Abbas in the West Bank that they too represent the Palestinian people. And therefor Abbas is not the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

Maybe we should ask why Hamas is excluded from peace talks? The USA talked with our enemies in North Vietnam. Why is Israel able to exclude Hamas when they are the democratically elected leadership of Gaza?

If we are to get too a just Mid-east peace, all parties have to agree.

As for Hamas being a terrorist government, sadly Israel is too.

If anything, by renouncing violence, Abbas is the most legitimate of the three.

And as for Hamas, if they choose to veto a just mid-east peace, as a democratically elected government they can become unelected just as fast.

Hamas in its charter calls for the destruction of israel.

Hamas has already called the peace talks a failure.

Hamas violently overthrew Fatah in 2007 to SEIZE power in gaza.

Hamas was not democratically voted into power.

Hamas lobs rockets, shoots innocent civilians, and launch other attacks such as suicide bombers at civilians.

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by,US, UK, EU, Canada, and Australia after taking into account the many factors it must take for a country to come to a conclusion such as this.

Israel is none of the above.

 

[Lemon law]

Here is the Yahpp news link comment on Hamas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_midea...3oDMTNoM2hidTZyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwOTAyL21sX2

It does not exactly square with FGD comments, but oh well.

 

[dahunan]

LOL I like to see my posts get overlooked.

LL and Dahuna got nothing on me. you guys are clueless when it comes to the middle east, because neither have ever been to israel before and actually see the issues there, nor have you had a friend die from a suicide bomb.

I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet.

One thing is to talk behind a computer, reading the internet and coming to conclusions, the other is first hand experience.

Converting to psychopathic behavior is what has made your people similar to those you claim are the enemy.

"flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet." hmm.. you mean if they killed one of my family I would kill 20 innocent people for every one of my family killed..

^^ no thank you

 

[Freshgeardude]

Here is the Yahpp news link comment on Hamas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_midea...3oDMTNoM2hidTZyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwOTAyL21sX2

It does not exactly square with FGD comments, but oh well.

Hamas is complaining it does not agree with abbas, but they dont want to go to the table.


they attacked and murdered 4 civilians, one pregnant, and the next day shot two others.


hamas does not at all want peace with israel in the equation.

their only option for peace is to rule over the entire land.

They do not recognize the israeli state and call for a destruction of the "occupation"


Nothing on the issue of hamas needs to go further because honestly, you are chasing for basically an atom in a hay stack.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Converting to psychopathic behavior is what has made your people similar to those you claim are the enemy.

"flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet." hmm.. you mean if they killed one of my family I would kill 20 innocent people for every one of my family killed..

^^ no thank you

hahaha love how you try to play with the words.

still haven't taken it head on because you know I am right.

secondly, it is not in any way israel's fault terrorists hide amongst civilians.

as well as their wives and children on top of an apartment building or balconies they fire missiles from.

do we need to have this discussion again?

The civilians in lebanon 2006 AND operation cast lead had FAIR warning to leave the area if they wanted to stay safe.

for lebanon, Israel dropped thousands of pamphlets, put up signs in cities they would go into days later.

in gaza, they did the same as in lebanon PLUS made over a million phone calls to people in gaza to tell them to leave.

Those who stay are one of the following: terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, or those who literally do not care for their life.

the last, I can feel sorry for, the the former two, can rot in hell for all i care

 

[ProfJohn]

Some quotes directly from Hamas
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD9HVE7C00

"Today marks the start of direct negotiations between someone who has no right to represent the Palestinian people and the brutal occupier, to provide a cover for Judaizing Jerusalem and stealing the land,"

"The enemy of the Palestinian people is the Zionist enemy,"

"Our resistance is continuous," he said. "We have to concentrate on the West Bank in order to achieve (its) liberation."

Speaking about the killings of 4 Israelis
"There are those who are saying the timing of the attacks was deliberate, but this is not true. When people have an opportunity, as well as the capabilities and targets, they act."

"We want Gaza to remain calm because we liberated it. At this time we are not speaking of the liberation of all of Palestine. The current plan is to liberate the West Bank," the Hamas man said. "If they (Palestinian Authority) succeed in doing so, we will give them credit. How was Gaza freed? Through negotiations? Of course not. The Israelis understood that (occupying Gaza) exacts a heavy price and chose to leave."

 

[SandEagle]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-draft-treaty-with-fortnightly-meetings.html

look at the faces on these clowns. we all know who's going to get the better deal out of this.

 

[JEDIYoda]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is exactly not the thinking from various news sources who point out that Hamas is somewhat motivated to tell Fatah and Abbas in the West Bank that they too represent the Palestinian people. And therefor Abbas is not the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

Maybe we should ask why Hamas is excluded from peace talks? The USA talked with our enemies in North Vietnam. Why is Israel able to exclude Hamas when they are the democratically elected leadership of Gaza?

If we are to get too a just Mid-east peace, all parties have to agree.

As for Hamas being a terrorist government, sadly Israel is too.

If anything, by renouncing violence, Abbas is the most legitimate of the three.

And as for Hamas, if they choose to veto a just mid-east peace, as a democratically elected government they can become unelected just as fast.

You are glossing over the deaths of 4 people possibly 5 if you consider one was pregnant.
You are also very mis-informed....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/31/palestine-gunman-kills-4-_n_700823.html

JERUSALEM — Palestinian gunmen opened fire Tuesday on an Israeli car in the West Bank and killed four passengers on the eve of a new round of Mideast peace talks in Washington. The Islamic militant group Hamas claimed responsibility.

Your take on Hamas wanting to be included in the peace talks is stoopid!!
Hamas has stated they want no part of the peace process.
This has nothing to do withg being the representative of the Palestinian people!
Your also nieve to believe that Hamas can be voted out of office!!

You really need to stop with your nonesense!

You and everybody else knopws to be a fact that Hamas wants nothing to do with Israel!!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Lets see if I can get my arms around the Eagle Keeper logic as he says-----------

Rashid Khalidi is the Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies at Columbia University. He is the author of "Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness."

The author of the article is evidence enough.

Seeing that he is from columbia just enforces

SO IN OTHER WORDS THE COLUMBIA PROFESSOR is automatically biased and Eagle Keeper is does not have a biased bone in his body????????????????????????

Therefore EK can safely fail to address the logic of the contention and ignore his own bias.

NICE DEFLECTION BRO but an epic failure of your own logic.

you are biased heavily toward the terrorists & Palestinians.

Then you choose to use such an article as a basis to reenforce your claims.

The author is not neutral and neither is Columbia.
It is another example of cherry picking information to support your beliefs/desires and then calling it the truth.

 

[Lemon law]

Jediy says, "You and everybody else knopws to be a fact that Hamas wants nothing to do with Israel!! "

Well Israel wishes Hamas would go away too.

And I hate mosquitoes also, I don't like death, Taxes, the religious right, and would it not be wonderful if I could just wish all those problems away.

The point is I can't wish those problems away, neither can Israel or Hamas.

Realists deal with problems, recognize peace is a two way street, and that sometimes means talking to entities who do not like you and you don't like either.

Failing that there is that other reality, given the huge disproportionate number of Arabs compared Israelis, and the weight of Arab oil money, an Israeli state can never long term exist in the mid-east without settling the Palestinian questions.

Its also very probable that the world will tire of the perpetual distracting mid-east conflicts, conclude that Israelis and Palestinians can never agree, and instead impose binding third party arbitration to arrive at a settlement.

If Israeli refuses to extend the settlement freeze past 9/27/2010, the rest of the world is likely to turn decidedly anti-Israeli. Even Obama and future US presidents will have a hard time ignoring a world consensus.

As many have already noted, Israel presently likes the status quo of maintaining a military occupation of disputed territory better than being a real peace partner. And if these peace talks can't lead to a just peace settlement within a year, binding third party arbitration will start looking as a more viable option.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL:
If Hamas does not want to be part of the process, should Israel force them to be or conceded to their demands?

Israel froze the settlements for 6 months to encourage the start of talks. The Palestinians did not respond until the last moment. Is this an attempt to con Israel into continueing the freeze.

Hamas actions are showing that they do not want peace. What should happen to Gaza as a result?

 

[Lemon law]

LL:
If Hamas does not want to be part of the process, should Israel force them to be or conceded to their demands?

Israel froze the settlements for 6 months to encourage the start of talks. The Palestinians did not respond until the last moment. Is this an attempt to con Israel into continueing the freeze.

Hamas actions are showing that they do not want peace. What should happen to Gaza as a result?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe EK is finally asking a few of the right set of questions.

Lets take them one at a time. As it is Israel refuses to talk to Hamas, should that change, then Hamas has the option to participate in peace talks or not. If Hamas then declines, then international opinion will dope slap Hamas leadership which will aid Israel.

The last time the various sides talked at the Condi Rice brokered Annapolis conference, the issue of settlements was tabled while Israel stalled and stalled, and further extended its control and settlements on the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Its very unlikely that Israel will get away with that again. As it is there is hardly enough land left to form a Palestinian State and further Israeli settlements will end a Palestinian State of a viable option. So yes, IMHO, its crucial to further peace talks that Israel extend the settlement freeze. After all, since its disputed land, Israel has no right to build period.

But actually 98% or more the basic agreement peace plan is in place from prior negotiations, its just a few nagging devil in the details questions remaining. Things like land swaps, control of Jerusalem, water rights, the right to return, how to handle some 300,000 Israeli settlers leaving the West Bank, and Palestinian and Israeli security questions to name some of the contentious issues.

As for Hamas in Gaza, they are the odd man out now, and if Abbas inks a deal with Israel, its going to be a yes no binary choice for them. And very likely to also be put up as a democratic election choice, not up to Hamas leadership and instead up to the residents of Gaza.

But if these talks fail, the more likely final solution will be forcing Israel to assimilate the Palestinian people will full voting rights or binding third party arbitration as the remaining ways forward.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet.

Muslim on Muslim violence does not change attitudes against us infidels. Why would this?

They would hate the west, they would hate Israel, for not outright surrendering to that suicide bomber before he killed their family. They'd probably provide aid and comfort to the bomber's family.

Do not underestimate those ideologically opposed to the west and aligned with Islam. Their opposition runs deeper than blood.

 

[Lemon law]

I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet.

Muslim on Muslim violence does not change attitudes against us infidels. Why would this?

They would hate the west, they would hate Israel, for not outright surrendering to that suicide bomber before he killed their family. They'd probably provide aid and comfort to the bomber's family.

.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only common denominator here is violence, there is Christian on Christian violence, there is Muslim on Muslim violence, there is Israeli on Palestinian violence, there is Arab on Israeli violence, and I hope someone reading this gets a clue, we need less violence and not more.

But I think ole Jackolass really blow its by saying, "Do not underestimate those ideologically opposed to the west and aligned with Islam. Their opposition runs deeper than blood"

Sorry Jack, there are about 1.4 billion Muslims, they will not vanish as a force, and 99.9999% of them are non violent. Again, we need more religious tolerance not less.

Then there is the FGD contention, "I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet." Sadly that too is a two way street, and ignores the number of Palestinians Israeli murders and marginalizes.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lets take them one at a time. As it is Israel refuses to talk to Hamas,

That`s a lie and you kno0w it!!

lately it has been splashed all over the news media that it is hamas who still refuses to recognize Israel or eben deal with Israel!!!

It`s amzing how you are like a child trying to mis-represent that truth and then twisting words to say that it is israel that refuses to talk with Hamas!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Jediy says, "You and everybody else knopws to be a fact that Hamas wants nothing to do with Israel!! "

Well Israel wishes Hamas would go away too.

spoken like a freakin little kid with no proof to back up what he says....
Show me a recent reputable link with an Israel official saying that...you cant!!

Yet there are links all over the news about Hamas refusing to negotiate or even recognize Israel!!

 

[Freshgeardude]

I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only common denominator here is violence, there is Christian on Christian violence, there is Muslim on Muslim violence, there is Israeli on Palestinian violence, there is Arab on Israeli violence, and I hope someone reading this gets a clue, we need less violence and not more.

But I think ole Jackolass really blow its by saying, "Do not underestimate those ideologically opposed to the west and aligned with Islam. Their opposition runs deeper than blood"

Sorry Jack, there are about 1.4 billion Muslims, they will not vanish as a force, and 99.9999% of them are non violent. Again, we need more religious tolerance not less.

Then there is the FGD contention, "I'd bet enough money, if you both had families, and hamas came and killed your parents in a suicide bomb attack, you would flip the coin as fast as a speeding bullet." Sadly that too is a two way street, and ignores the number of Palestinians Israeli murders and marginalizes.

and im talking about a suicide bomber, rocket, attack on innocent civlians.

not palestinains who get involved in a fight, or dont leave an area after fair warning of an iminent attack.

wait. so by your logic, its ok if you DONT give warning, but its bad if you do give warning?

 

[Lemon law]

spoken like a freakin little kid with no proof to back up what he says....
Show me a recent reputable link with an Israel official saying that...you cant!!

Yet there are links all over the news about Hamas refusing to negotiate or even recognize Israel!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In terms of answering the Israel wants to go away question, that is childishly easy to prove. After all Israel has a total economic embargo and blockade on Hamas ever since Hamas was voted in in 2006.

Israel does not have to say it when they demonstrate what their 100% unified national government policy is in the total blockade of Gaza and Hamas. Things are not a heck of a lot better in the West Bank, as Israel controls everything.

But now that the Palestinian people are split in two, we have a contest of Palestinian ideas.

Hamas is willing to use violence to oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

Fatah in the West Bank renounces violence as a legitimate means to oppose the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

And as we can see, neither Palestinian idea works.