An just mid-east peace may be up to the USA.

[Freshgeardude]

So Nick still thinks I am a Hamas supporter. Sadly, Hamas and violent resistance to being occupied is not only a very old idea, as an idea or strategy, it cannot be killed.

but you do not condemn it, which you should be. that is why you are a hamas supporter

The Palestinians are presently split, one side tries non violence and gets carved up and settlements for itself, and the other side tries a more violent resistance, and at least does not get Israeli settlements.

one side is on the peace talks table, the other is banned. I wonder who will run the palestinian state in the future if fatah makes an agreement and hamas doesnt.

And if violence and non violence does not work as a full range of options for Palestinians, the question is what idea will work for the Palestinians? Like the American slavery question, its more likely to be an external source that frees the Palestinians.

what external source freed the slaves? AFAIK it was all internal. sectional issues brought up the civil war and freeing the slaves gave lincoln more support from the north.

And to some extent Israel is gambling they can continue to basically repress the Palestinians and Israel may well lose that gamble if these peace talks lead no where.

and how far is hamas's peace talk gone

Meanwhile the Gaza aid flotillas stop, while the world waits for the results of the peace talks.

they stopped before the peace talks were even announced. I believe it was the US and EU calling for a halt on flotillas to prevent violence is what did it. I even posted an article about it, but yet like always like to blur out the truth.

But I am predicting that world opinion will turn decidedly anti-Israel if the settlement freeze is not extended by the 26'th of this month. Nick is predicting that it will not.

and you predicted a worldwide embargo on israel, UN sanctions, and us halting ties, but have any of these come to be true?

Time and events will prove who is correct.

and like before, you will be proven wrong.

you literally skip over my posts nowadays, are the facts of your demise that hurtful?

 

[EagleKeeper]

So Nick still thinks I am a Hamas supporter. Sadly, Hamas and violent resistance to being occupied is not only a very old idea, as an idea or strategy, it cannot be killed.

The Palestinians are presently split, one side tries non violence and gets carved up and settlements for itself, and the other side tries a more violent resistance, and at least does not get Israeli settlements.

And that side gets more of their civilians injured because they do not want peace.
In '05, Israel pulled all settlements out of Gaza hoping that the Palestinians would be willing to accept that gesture of good faith and offer peace.
But the Palestinians in Gaza chose to bite the hand that was offered.

The peace hopers have always stated that Israel should return to previous borders and everyone would be happy. Israel tried to do this in stages to see if it was true. The peace offering failed. Some will say that this is because Israel did not pull back everything. Israel need to see if the Palestinians were able to be trusted by exchanging land for peace. There fears were answered.

And if violence and non violence does not work as a full range of options for Palestinians, the question is what idea will work for the Palestinians? Like the American slavery question, its more likely to be an external source that frees the Palestinians.

And to some extent Israel is gambling they can continue to basically repress the Palestinians and Israel may well lose that gamble if these peace talks lead no where.

Meanwhile the Gaza aid flotillas stop, while the world waits for the results of the peace talks.

But I am predicting that world opinion will turn decidedly anti-Israel if the settlement freeze is not extended by the 26'th of this month. Nick is predicting that it will not.

Time and events will prove who is correct.

Up to now, your predictions have proven false. The Gaza aid flotilla were a PR stunt only, not intended for serious support. They never continued after the two attempts. No one in the world body is talking about an embargo of Israel. No one is talking about binding 3rd party arbitration - because the problem is not just Palestinians and Israelis. They know that all Arab sponsors and a decisive Palestinian leader have to agree or such Will be setup for failure.

The freeze for for 6 months; why did Abbas wait until the last minute - to see if they could win another PR victory if Israel starts them back up.

My prediction - the freeze will last as long as the talks have a possibility of bearing fruit. The moment the Palestinians attempt a PR stunt or demand all for nothing situation, Israel will allow building to resume.

 

[Lemon law]

Now FGD comes up with the prediction of, "My prediction - the freeze will last as long as the talks have a possiblity of bearing fruit."

That prediction may last until the next scheduled meeting on 9/14, but then its just 12 days to Israeli decision point. If the next meeting is in another 14 days, the settlement freeze will have already expired because Israel is the only entity that can reimpose it.

But if Israel fails to extend the freeze past 9/27/10, it is going to be impossible to blame the Palestinians for that Israeli failure.

But since a lack of a settlement freeze extension would likely collapse the peace talks, the question becomes what can the Palestinians, the rest of the world, and the USA do to pressure Israel to reimpose it. Other than withdraw from the talks, the Palestinians can do little. While FGD and I may disagree on the point, I am pretty sure the rest of the world will not be happy with that Israeli action and may start taking proactive steps against Israel.

As for Obama who may prefer to Duck the issue, its still crunch time for his foreign policy. And Obama has two very effective cards to play.

(1) At the stroke of a pen he can suspend US foreign aid to Israel.

(2) He can instruct the US ambassador to the UN, that next time an anti-Israeli resolution comes up in the UN, that the US abstain rather the vetoing it. And yes FGD, if Israel fails to extend the settlement freeze, there are going to be a boat load of past and new UN resolutions aimed at Israel.

As for the aid flotillas, they are likely to resume with a vengeance, and this time they may be escorted by European warships better not attack. Or alternately Egypt and Jordon may open their borders to imports into the West Bank and Gaza.

Well FGD, what I listed are some of the rather effective sticks that could be used to force Israel to reimpose a settlement freeze, and I am guessing that FGD predicts the larger world and the USA will do nothing instead.

Rather than argue about it, in about 20 days, we will find out. Of course if the larger world is going to use sticks to pummel Israel into line, it will take up to a month to get those dope slapping stick in place. As for Obama, I suspect he will, rescind the UN veto first.

 

[JEDIYoda]

(1) At the stroke of a pen he can suspend US foreign aid to Israel.

(2) He can instruct the US ambassador to the UN, that next time an anti-Israeli resolution comes up in the UN, that the US abstain rather the vetoing it. And yes FGD, if Israel fails to extend the settlement freeze, there are going to be a boat load of past and new UN resolutions aimed at Israel.

Will you just stop with your wishing for the demise of Israel!! Please!!
You know as well as I do that the above will never ever, ever happen!!

As somebody who is pro-Hamas, It`s beyond understanding how you expect people to believe that you are a Palestinian supporter , when weall know that Hamas doesn`t give a flying &^%$ about the Palestinians!!

 

[Freshgeardude]

Now FGD comes up with the prediction of, "My prediction - the freeze will last as long as the talks have a possiblity of bearing fruit."

for shits and giggles it was eaglekeeper who wrote that, but i still agree with that statement

That prediction may last until the next scheduled meeting on 9/14, but then its just 12 days to Israeli decision point. If the next meeting is in another 14 days, the settlement freeze will have already expired because Israel is the only entity that can reimpose it.

and i have said before, israel is most likely going to extend the settlement freeze since pa are now at the table. the pa waited 6 months to try and test it out and were forced into going to the table without their preconditions.

But if Israel fails to extend the freeze past 9/27/10, it is going to be impossible to blame the Palestinians for that Israeli failure.

lets wait and see

But since a lack of a settlement freeze extension would likely collapse the peace talks, the question becomes what can the Palestinians, the rest of the world, and the USA do to pressure Israel to reimpose it. Other than withdraw from the talks, the Palestinians can do little. While FGD and I may disagree on the point, I am pretty sure the rest of the world will not be happy with that Israeli action and may start taking proactive steps against Israel.

Sure, and israel knows this and this is why israel is more likely to continue the freeze as long as the PA stay on the table.

As for Obama who may prefer to Duck the issue, its still crunch time for his foreign policy. And Obama has two very effective cards to play.

(1) At the stroke of a pen he can suspend US foreign aid to Israel.

(2) He can instruct the US ambassador to the UN, that next time an anti-Israeli resolution comes up in the UN, that the US abstain rather the vetoing it. And yes FGD, if Israel fails to extend the settlement freeze, there are going to be a boat load of past and new UN resolutions aimed at Israel.

hahaha obama wouldnt have a single chance if he did any of the two in the 2012 elections. He knows it, I know it, and maybe deep down in your conceded brain, you know it.

As for the aid flotillas, they are likely to resume with a vengeance, and this time they may be escorted by European warships better not attack. Or alternately Egypt and Jordon may open their borders to imports into the West Bank and Gaza.

hahah all talk. all all talk. just as i have predicted and proven correct, it was ALL TALK. europe isnt going to bring war ships. Turkey isnt going to mess with what it calls an ally.

you love to thing of drastic motions that would never happen.

Well FGD, what I listed are some of the rather effective sticks that could be used to force Israel to reimpose a settlement freeze, and I am guessing that FGD predicts the larger world and the USA will do nothing instead.

rather, i predict israel continuing the settlement freeze as long as the peace agreements hold. if they start to fail, i would see the settlements being built again, only because right now, the settlement freeze is the only reason the PA are on the table. they need something else to hold them there or they will leave.

Rather than argue about it, in about 20 days, we will find out. Of course if the larger world is going to use sticks to pummel Israel into line, it will take up to a month to get those dope slapping stick in place. As for Obama, I suspect he will, rescind the UN veto first.

Lets see in 21 days

Let us put a bet on this.

in 21 days, when the settlement freeze is planned to end, if israel either a. extend the freeze or b. does not extend the freeze

and either the talks continue or not,

I BET the US-Israeli ties will stay the same. I BET the EU will also stay more or less the same (ie: not break ties) AND that the UN will not put ANY (not even one) sanction on Israel in a 3 month period.

I also BET that the GAZA blockade will still stand and that NO (NOT ONE) WARSHIPS will escort a single ship to the gaza port in a 3 month period after september 26th.

and for this bet, if I am correct, you will cease all bashing of Israel in any thread on P&N, anandtech.com, forums.anandtech.com, or any thread related to this site.

if I am wrong, I will do the exact opposite. I will cease to bash the ME (outside of the israeli state)

This means, by DECEMBER 26th, If I am right, you must admit defeat on the Israeli- Palestinian debate.

So? do you take me up on this offer?

Why dont you put your ass up on the line if you so believe you are correct.

 

[Lemon law]

I don't believe in wagering on external events, but time will tell. If your predictions do not come true, you will maybe learn something, which will mean nothing.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I don't believe in wagering on external events, but time will tell. If your predictions do not come true, you will maybe learn something, which will mean nothing.

Been there your self and done that huh?? hahaaaa

 

[Freshgeardude]

I don't believe in wagering on external events, but time will tell. If your predictions do not come true, you will maybe learn something, which will mean nothing.

so in other words, you dont believe the bull shit that comes out of your mouth.


if you know what will happen, why not wager on it? oh thats right because you have been proven wrong thus far

 

[EagleKeeper]

I don't believe in wagering on external events, but time will tell. If your predictions do not come true, you will maybe learn something, which will mean nothing.

None of your predictions over the past few years have come true regarding Israel having to bend over to accommodate the Palestinians and how the UN/world is going to bitch slap Israel.

Yet those of us that are able to logically analyze the situation have identified areas/situations that are a powder keg and stated what Israel/Arab countries and the Palestinians would probably do about it.

Allowing emotions to rule logical thinking does not work in the real world. It makes fools come alive.

Back when the "peace treaty" between Hamas and Israel, 3-4 years ago happened; it was predicted that the treaty would be broken within 24 hours and that Hamas would proclaim their innocence that they did not do it.

Some people here were saying that Hamas wanted peace and would not break their word; that it would be Israel targeting a Palestinian "leader" that wold break the truce.

When events proved correct; then the Pal supporters starting waffling stating that there was no text of the agreement - ignoring logical and common sense.

Look at the situation now with logical understanding and remove the emotional cloud from your eyes. The best example is your phrase of "just peace". In your mind, that is giving the Palestinians what they want - justice for the perceived wrong doings of Israel. Peace is both sides agreeing to sacrifice some. A just peace is where no one is sacrificing.

 

[Freshgeardude]

none of your predictions over the past few years have come true regarding israel having to bend over to accommodate the palestinians and how the un/world is going to bitch slap israel.

Yet those of us that are able to logically analyze the situation have identified areas/situations that are a powder keg and stated what israel/arab countries and the palestinians would probably do about it.

Allowing emotions to rule logical thinking does not work in the real world. It makes fools come alive.

Back when the "peace treaty" between hamas and israel, 3-4 years ago happened; it was predicted that the treaty would be broken within 24 hours and that hamas would proclaim their innocence that they did not do it.

Some people here were saying that hamas wanted peace and would not break their word; that it would be israel targeting a palestinian "leader" that wold break the truce.

When events proved correct; then the pal supporters starting waffling stating that there was no text of the agreement - ignoring logical and common sense.

Look at the situation now with logical understanding and remove the emotional cloud from your eyes. The best example is your phrase of "just peace". In your mind, that is giving the palestinians what they want - justice for the perceived wrong doings of israel. Peace is both sides agreeing to sacrifice some. A just peace is where no one is sacrificing.

qft

 

[JEDIYoda]

None of your predictions over the past few years have come true regarding Israel having to bend over to accommodate the Palestinians and how the UN/world is going to bitch slap Israel.

Yet those of us that are able to logically analyze the situation have identified areas/situations that are a powder keg and stated what Israel/Arab countries and the Palestinians would probably do about it.

Allowing emotions to rule logical thinking does not work in the real world. It makes fools come alive.

Back when the "peace treaty" between Hamas and Israel, 3-4 years ago happened; it was predicted that the treaty would be broken within 24 hours and that Hamas would proclaim their innocence that they did not do it.

Some people here were saying that Hamas wanted peace and would not break their word; that it would be Israel targeting a Palestinian "leader" that wold break the truce.

When events proved correct; then the Pal supporters starting waffling stating that there was no text of the agreement - ignoring logical and common sense.

Look at the situation now with logical understanding and remove the emotional cloud from your eyes. The best example is your phrase of "just peace". In your mind, that is giving the Palestinians what they want - justice for the perceived wrong doings of Israel. Peace is both sides agreeing to sacrifice some. A just peace is where no one is sacrificing.

qft