An Expression of Frustration over the Bulldozer Debacle

[Arachnotronic]

Hi,

Before anybody accuses me of Intel fanboyism, I would like to state that in the past 6 months, I've built more AMD systems for people than I can count. And in that same time span, I've only built two Intel systems -- and those were at the explicit request of the customers.

However, I'm sick and tired of being jerked around with respect to the upcoming high end AMD FX chips. AMD promised that the FX chips would be out in "Q2" and then suddenly it was delayed, on June 1st in a slide presented at Computex, and we were promised retail PIBs within "60-90" days. It's been more than 90 days, and we still have no performance information, clock speeds, or even a hint of when these suckers will be available to buy.

And what's worse, AMD? You're shooting YOURSELVES in the foot! Don't give me this nonsense about "releasing performance data" would cannibalize your sales! I think that those who aren't willing to wait will go with the higher performing, reasonably priced Intel offerings (if they're looking at a "high end" price range), and those who are willing to wait would at least like something to keep them from going for the already-available Intel offerings that provide a very high level of performance.

It can't hurt to give us some performance and launch data beforehand unless Bulldozer will significantly under-perform your current offerings and/or offer a worse price/performance ratio than current Intel offerings. And if this is the impression you're willing to leave on us, then you're just sending us straight to 2500K/2600K/990x chips from Intel. So why don't you do the enthusiast community-- and indeed, yourselves -- a favor and give us SOMETHING. A lot of us have faith in you, but faith will only go so far before a nice Microcenter combo will offer us something awesome NOW.

Regards,
--Intel17

 

[velis]

You can't be serious! Or can you?

If you can't bear the pain of waiting for somebody (in this case AMD) to do something which they are even entitled to not do at all, I suggest you move to the next best thing: using what is available instead...

Edit: Once again, we got drawn into a flamebait
Edit2: it's ready when it's ready and not a second sooner. Then and only then the benchmarks will start singing their inconsiderate song.

 

[Rifter]

You can't be serious! Or can you?

If you can't bear the pain of waiting for somebody (in this case AMD) to do something which they are even entitled to not do at all, I suggest you move to the next best thing: using what is available instead...

so you think its cool that AMD lies about release times repeatadly to the point that BD is barely going to beat SB-e and IB out the door is cool?

 

[3DVagabond]

so you think its cool that AMD lies about release times repeatadly to the point that BD is barely going to beat SB-e and IB out the door is cool?

Do you really think they are lying? Or, are they having some other issue(s) that were unforeseen?

 

[frostedflakes]

Lol some people get way too passionate about computer hardware.

 

[Rifter]

Do you really think they are lying? Or, are they having some other issue(s) that were unforeseen?

After the whole BD will work on AM3 to 6 months later oh sorry we lied now its only AM3+ fiasco it wouldnt surprise me if they were lieing. Either way if they dont get there crap together soon they are going to go under, or at least be out of x86 CPU's and be GPU only.

Also there decision to come out with a brand new socket(AM3+) thats going to be EOL the second BD comes out(becuase second gen BD and all fusion products are going FMx socket) makes me think they really dont care about there end users much anymore. All AMD roadmaps have ZERO mention of AM3+ in 2012, everything is going FMx. Good job making a new socket for less than 4 months of lifespan.

 

[piesquared]

OMG give your bloody head a shake and step away from the computer. Claiming to own an AMD processor, or owning an AMD processor doesn't mean you are entitled to make company policy or make corporate decisions such as release date, performance information publication, or anything else. WTF are you thinking???

What a sad state of affairs the tech community has become over the last few years.

 

[Rifter]

OMG give your bloody head a shake and step away from the computer. Claiming to own an AMD processor, or owning an AMD processor doesn't give you proxy to make company policy or make corporate decisions such as release date, performance information publication, or anything else. WTF are you thinking???

while i agree it doent give him the right it would be in AMD's best intrest right now to release as much info as possible to try and do some damage control(unless BD really is a hughe flop but in that case they are screwed anyways).

 

[Mopetar]

while i agree it doent give him the right it would be in AMD's best intrest right now to release as much info as possible to try and do some damage control(unless BD really is a hughe flop but in that case they are screwed anyways).

The people who actually do this for a living disagree with you.

Q. When are you launching? Why don't you release the date?
A. When we launch, we launch. I will not comment on dates, I will not comment on schedules. We do not release dates prior to launch, at most we give quarter granularity. Giving the date out will stall demand. We have a business to run. While you might think that it will make your life easier to not have to guess, the reality is that we have a business to run and the minute you let the date out, sales stall. For everything. The cost impact of announcing the launch date is always bigger and drives these decisions.

Q. What are the prices?
A. Look at the above question and you have your answer.

Q. Why don't you release benchmarks before launch? You could steal so much business away from the other guy?
A. Again, releasing benchmarks before launch will simply stall sales. Believe me, if the competition thinks they are out of position, will they just sit back and say "oh well" or will they react? Handing them benchmarks is simply giving them time to form a strategy. I am not in the business of helping them, they are on their own on this one.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The people who actually do this for a living disagree with you.

And here I thought JF-AMD was an individual poster and not posting for AMD PR...:hmm:

 

[piesquared]

while i agree it doent give him the right it would be in AMD's best intrest right now to release as much info as possible to try and do some damage control(unless BD really is a hughe flop but in that case they are screwed anyways).

To that I would say not you or anybody else outside of AMD, their partners, or OEM's have any idea whatsoever as to what is in AMD's best interest regarding any decision making as to release schedule or product information publication. Being a forum member on a tech site doesn't qualify somebody to advise on how to run a multi billion dollar corporation. All that does is provoke unnecessary controversy (unless that is the intention). Damage control for what? What would that accomplish exactly, besides pissing off OEM's and partners and maybe keep a handful of so called enthusiasts from buying a competitors product?

 

[sandorski]

They don't owe you ****. Sorry, but that's the Facts.

 

[happy medium]

do this for a living

Do what for a living?

 

[Rifter]

Damage control for what?

Damage control for being at least 4 months late(so far, still counting) with rumors that its due to BD not hitting performance levels that AMD wants to hit to compete with SB.

And i dont see how releasing performance data would hurt a OEM/partner, if anything it would give them more to go on to plan there systems that they will be producing, since like the rest of us they are 4 months behind the times they told there customers they would be launching BD computers.

 

[poohbear]

Lol some people get way too passionate about computer hardware.

this.

OP just go buy urself a SB 2500k already, u dont owe AMD anything nor do they owe u anything.

 

[jvroig]

And i dont see how releasing performance data would hurt a OEM/partner, if anything it would give them more to go on to plan there systems that they will be producing, since like the rest of us they are 4 months behind the times they told there customers they would be launching BD computers.

They give more information to their OEM partners than to us. Some of their partners are involved in the testing and validation (for example, mobo makers, BIOS writers, etc), and get all info ahead of time - it's the only way to make a successful launch possible. So their OEMs know whatever it is they need to know to make sure it is compatible with their product lines and/or as necessary to plan what the product lines will be.

So don't worry about OEMs and other partners - they have more information than us. Don't confuse AMD not giving us information with AMD not giving their partners the information. That's where most leaks come from (speaking in general; I am not saying the BD leaks came from there). They were also most likely told earlier than us about delays. So don't worry about them.

Do what for a living?

Make and market CPUs. That was from JF-AMD, trying to explain to forum enthusiasts the business side of things and why releasing performance benches ahead of time is not a good business decision for them and their partners.

 

[zebrax2]

And i dont see how releasing performance data would hurt a OEM/partner, if anything it would give them more to go on to plan there systems that they will be producing, since like the rest of us they are 4 months behind the times they told there customers they would be launching BD computers.

Suddenly releasing a performance figure would mean some people will start to wait instead of buying lowering the sales for the current product which is bad for OEM/partners. OEM/partners buy things in bulk which would mean they have a lot of CPUs in stock. A lot of stock with low demand means low cash flow

 

[grkM3]

Can't wait for amd to luanch something so I can see some ivybridge leaks from intel.

There was one leak and it showed 2-3% in most benches over sandy but I want to see socket 2011 heads up with bd

 

[BlueBlazer]

The people who actually do this for a living disagree with you.

I disagree to some extent here....

When we launch, we launch. I will not comment on dates, I will not comment on schedules. We do not release dates prior to launch, at most we give quarter granularity.

Its already passed the "60-90 days" AMD officially shown in its slide. Its hard to find any real information in any of AMD's presentation/road maps. Besides Cray, I can hardly find (server) systems advertised with Bulldozer CPUs (with only rumored "2 weeks" to go). This is unlike the Deneb, Istanbul and even Barcelona launch. :hmm:

Giving the date out will stall demand. We have a business to run. While you might think that it will make your life easier to not have to guess, the reality is that we have a business to run and the minute you let the date out, sales stall. For everything. The cost impact of announcing the launch date is always bigger and drives these decisions.

Since JF-AMD is in the server division, this is certainly going to push demand for competition instead (considering how much server market share AMD has lost in the last few quarters). Making purchasing decisions are important for business, and making known an availability (and delivery) date will be important otherwise (ordering and) purchasing priority will be based on available/existing systems.

Again, releasing benchmarks before launch will simply stall sales. Believe me, if the competition thinks they are out of position, will they just sit back and say "oh well" or will they react? Handing them benchmarks is simply giving them time to form a strategy. I am not in the business of helping them, they are on their own on this one.

This type of strategy is opposite of what competition (Intel) did. Take these examples >> Conroe Performance Preview Follow-Up and Intel Penryn Performance Preview: The Fastest gets Faster. The competition certainly did not expect/consider the issue of "stalled sales" (or cannibalizing the sales of their current CPUs). I guess the guys at AMD thinks differently.

Damage control for being at least 4 months late(so far, still counting) with rumors that its due to BD not hitting performance levels that AMD wants to hit to compete with SB.

Those were the very earliest rumors surfaced for the delay. Or maybe AMD is waiting for "Intel to show its cards".

 

[Vic Vega]

I'm sort of annoyed as well, however computer hardware isn't nearly as important to me as to make me become angry so I don't understand the rage I see on forums at times. I was hoping to be able to drop in a Bullsozer 8-way before BF3 hit.

No doubt I'll be able to play BF3 just fine with the current rig but AMD has sort of put a wrench in my plans.

People are ready with cash in hand. What are they waiting for? I really don't care if Bulldozer isn't a zillion times faster than i7. I don't even care if it's only slightly faster. Bulldozer's performance to i7 is irrelevant to me as I have an assembled AMD platform machine now with high end components waiting for an upgrade - I have no plans to go out and assemble an Intel box presently, simple for convenience sake I will stick with what I have. What I need is for BD to be a degree faster than my Phenom II and I'll be happy.

Come on AMD! If I have to wait much longer, I'll end up skipping this product cycle completely like I did with Phenom. I stretched my Opteron 185 two years out longer than I anticipated because AMD dropped the ball.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I'm not saying AMD owes me anything -- I'm simply annoyed that we have been...made to expect things that were not true.

It's one thing to say "it'll be out when it's out". If that had been the line the *whole* time, then whatever. It's a totally different thing to say:

- It'll be launched in Q2 (and adamantly champion it through the forums)
- It'll be launched within 60-90 days

and then proceed to have both of these ranges fly right by without a hint of explanation. I personally am not in the market for a new CPU anytime soon, but I've seen a lot of people hold off their own computer purchases because they're waiting to see how Bulldozer performs.

I don't "worry" over this stuff for myself -- but if we're on these forums, I'd expect that the primary discussion topics would be "CPUs and Overclocking"! And in this domain, this is what I'm thinking about

Also, as an AMD investor, it'd be nice to know that when the company makes presentations and says things, they aren't lying to me.

 

[Vic Vega]

Also, as an AMD investor, it'd be nice to know that when the company makes presentations and says things, they aren't lying to me.

This I agree with whole heartily. I don't own AMD stock but if I did I would probably be a little more concerned.

 

[velis]

I sympathise with you, really I am. I too am waiting for BD to see if AMD finally designed something to be competitive again.

But quite honestly, I gave up waiting somewhere back in june. I don't follow this particulary closely, but I'm still under an impression that it should appear somewhere closer to beginning of the year than now. Not to mention that lack of any "leaks" and similar teasers is downright frightening.

So now I'm just waiting for a HD 7970 and will build my next computer based on that (if it performs). The CPU will be BD (if it's out and it performs) or an intel one. I can't say I care much any more - I base my purchases strictly based on performance level I wish to achieve and then select the best price/performance components for the chosen target.

I just want to play The Witcher II on more than 10 FPS and my current E8400 + 5870 can't give me that.

 

[Arg Clin]

I agree with OP partially. To announce a release date, and then continously let it slip is bad PR. This is obvious to anyone - AMD knows this all too well.

I don't agree however that it wouldn't hurt anyone to release premature performance figures. If they are bad, they would give Bulldozer a bad name to srat off with. AMD could tweak and rework to the end of time, but the bad stench would stick!

The other option is that it performs great, but AMD can't ramp up volume production. That would give Intel a perfect window to speed up their own roadmaps and have a counterproduct on their hand when BD actually began shipping. Remember AMD is not wrestling somone of their own size, but that famous 800-pound gorilla that has the ressources to make happen just about anything they desire.

AMD had a huge success with the K7, because they caught Intel relying on an obsolete achitechture, that they were squeezing maximum life and thus profit out of. This is hardly the case today - SB's overclocking potential more than hints that Intel has some aces up their sleeve if BD performs competitatively.

So AMD need to do this very carefully, and not feeding the public with figures before the product is availible in the stores is exactly the right thing to do.

 

[Borealis7]

I agree with OP partially. To announce a release date, and then continously let it slip is bad PR. This is obvious to anyone - AMD knows this all too well.

not really, because for the average Joe-buying-a-new-CPU, there is a "new thing" all the time and he can't tell the difference except that he needs new M/B and RAM. Average Joe doesn't know anything about release dates, target segments, process technology and so on...