some of you guys are misguided about impedance.. if the speaker is rated at 8ohms, then the amp will run at 8ohms, there is no way around that unless you add another speaker and wire it in series or parallel. you can't magically run an 8ohm speaker at 4ohms because "the amp is 4ohm" no such thing
Ok guys, the website is right. Those speakers cannot handle 400w of power.
Some of you seem confused about power measurement. PMPO stands for complete power lie basically. Peak power stands for 2 times RMS power. RMS power stands for an accurate power measurement at one moment in time. The RMS value is meaningless without a time constant. Perhaps the amplifier can truly output 400w RMS, but for only .2 seconds. See, no one is lying. Another fun factor is that they will rate the power at an easy frequency such as 1khz. So, a good power rating on an amplifier would be this: 400w RMS into all 4 channels at 4ohms, driven from 20hz - 20khz +\- .5dB with less than 1 percent total harmonic distortion, driven with a constant white noise input signal for 1 hour. I dont think a manufacturer can fudge anything in there! Also the power transformer needed for 400w operation is about 7-800va. That is way too big to fit in that little box. Also, the amplifier's heat sink is too small to disapate 400w RMS for very long. Not to mention the speakers could not disapate that kind of power for very long.
Power ratings can be a very deceptive thing.
Some of you seem confused about power measurement. PMPO stands for complete power lie basically. Peak power stands for 2 times RMS power. RMS power stands for an accurate power measurement at one moment in time. The RMS value is meaningless without a time constant. Perhaps the amplifier can truly output 400w RMS, but for only .2 seconds. See, no one is lying. Another fun factor is that they will rate the power at an easy frequency such as 1khz. So, a good power rating on an amplifier would be this: 400w RMS into all 4 channels at 4ohms, driven from 20hz - 20khz +\- .5dB with less than 1 percent total harmonic distortion, driven with a constant white noise input signal for 1 hour. I dont think a manufacturer can fudge anything in there! Also the power transformer needed for 400w operation is about 7-800va. That is way too big to fit in that little box. Also, the amplifier's heat sink is too small to disapate 400w RMS for very long. Not to mention the speakers could not disapate that kind of power for very long.
Power ratings can be a very deceptive thing.
Whoa, hang on here guys!
Im not saying the Logitech's are a bad set of speakers at all. They are much better infact than most PC speaker sets out there. I personally have not even heard them. I simply pointed out the fact that the power ratings are bogus. The Klipshce power ratings are fake as well. I doubt there is a single PC speaker manufacturer who rates his product accuratly. Generally, you get what you pay for. For 100 dollars, I see no reason why those Logitechs are not a great deal. Now, I personally have not heard them, but I have experience with Tangband (the brand of speaker in the satilites) and generally Tangband makes a good product.
What I see as a really bad ripoff are those altec lansing speakers that have two 1 inch cones as the satilite drivers. Those are nothing more than tweeters! You cannot get accurate sound reproduction or imaging through those!
Im not saying the Logitech's are a bad set of speakers at all. They are much better infact than most PC speaker sets out there. I personally have not even heard them. I simply pointed out the fact that the power ratings are bogus. The Klipshce power ratings are fake as well. I doubt there is a single PC speaker manufacturer who rates his product accuratly. Generally, you get what you pay for. For 100 dollars, I see no reason why those Logitechs are not a great deal. Now, I personally have not heard them, but I have experience with Tangband (the brand of speaker in the satilites) and generally Tangband makes a good product.
What I see as a really bad ripoff are those altec lansing speakers that have two 1 inch cones as the satilite drivers. Those are nothing more than tweeters! You cannot get accurate sound reproduction or imaging through those!
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I think the upshot of all this is that I'm not going to buy a set of these...
Your loss
I say screw numbers, if it sounds good, keep it
I dunno about guru...
Viperoni knows as much if not more than I do....
I know people who make me look like a newbie...
The relationship between Peak and RMS will differ with different products, but anywhere between about 1.5 to 2x is what you observe with most products.
Funyuns101
Platinum Member
- Jun 15, 2002
- 2,849
- 0
- 0
i'm not an audiophile, but i think that the z560's are still good despite the 400watt claims.
they are awesome speakers especially for less than $200, i'd say get them unless you absolutely need the BEST speakers and want to pay a lot more for klipsch...
they are awesome speakers especially for less than $200, i'd say get them unless you absolutely need the BEST speakers and want to pay a lot more for klipsch...
RMS power is kind of a misnomer. There is really no such thing. The proper term should be Average or Continuous Power. I can think of a couple halfassed lawyers that could argue that since RMS power isn't a real thing, it doesn't violate any laws and win. The same thing as saying "Frankies got a Jillion Honda's" (Who else lived in KC in the late 80s?)
It is quite easy to design an amp with say 1200 peak watts that can only output say 50 on a continuous basis. They have been doing this for years in audio and most other consumer electronics and while its misleading they aren't really lying.
The Z560s at $115 dollars or whatever they were selling for a while ago were a pretty darn good value regardless of what the manufacturer claims.
jt
It is quite easy to design an amp with say 1200 peak watts that can only output say 50 on a continuous basis. They have been doing this for years in audio and most other consumer electronics and while its misleading they aren't really lying.
The Z560s at $115 dollars or whatever they were selling for a while ago were a pretty darn good value regardless of what the manufacturer claims.
jt
Peak Power = (Peak Voltage)^2 / Resistance
Root Mean Squared Power (RMS Power for short) = (RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance
Peak Voltage = sqrt(2) * RMS Voltage
Peak Power = (sqrt(2) * RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance = 2 *(RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance = 2 * RMS Power
This means that peak power is exactly twice the RMS power.
What you were thinking about is voltage, not power. Yes, Peak Voltage = 1.414 x RMS Voltage.
Root Mean Squared Power (RMS Power for short) = (RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance
Peak Voltage = sqrt(2) * RMS Voltage
Peak Power = (sqrt(2) * RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance = 2 *(RMS Voltage)^2 / Resistance = 2 * RMS Power
This means that peak power is exactly twice the RMS power.
What you were thinking about is voltage, not power. Yes, Peak Voltage = 1.414 x RMS Voltage.
still, it has the problem of making users a tad overconfident in pushing their volume up. probably why so many die.
I read an article on this, and that was what the author had determined after complete disassembly.
Lets see the amp pictures. I want to see the power supply.
If you can figure out what voltage the power supply delivers. You can determine the wattage assuming 100 % efficiency.
Find the voltage. Then divide by 1.414
This is RMS Voltage
V=I*R
Divide the RMS voltage by 8 ohms and you get current.
power (wattage) = RMS voltage * current
If you can figure out what voltage the power supply delivers. You can determine the wattage assuming 100 % efficiency.
Find the voltage. Then divide by 1.414
This is RMS Voltage
V=I*R
Divide the RMS voltage by 8 ohms and you get current.
power (wattage) = RMS voltage * current
I agree completely. The "superior" Klipsch has a just as inflated number, the ?Maximum Burst Power Output." I own the Logitech Z-560. I used to own the Klipsch v.2-400. These are computer speakers. If you want real power, go with some real audio equipment. The bottom line is these speakers sound great for $110.
cmdrdredd
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2001
- 27,052
- 357
- 126
sorry to bring out this old topic, but just a note.
After hearing and owning the Z560 and comparing them to the Klipsch 4.1 set. I have to say despite any false advertising the Z560s sound alot better to me than the Klipsch. the klipsch may have a bit more trebble, but the bass response is flat compared to the Z560s larger driver.
Also...anyone who knows anything can tell you that you can run as big as an amp as you want with ANY speaker as long as you don't boost distortion. In other words when you hear the familiar "fart" from the sub and any sort of noise and raspy sounds etc TURN IT DOWN! The ONLY way you can damage any speaker is to physically damage it or run it up until it starts distorting...i bet alot of people kill their Z560 sets by showing off. The Check out this volume type stuff. turn it up and turn on Q3 or something and hear explosions with the bass turned all the way up. That's how people kill their speakers. If you listen to them at normal levels where everything sounds smooth and doesn't sound like the sound crosses and details are hard to localize when a little EAX and positional audio is added then you're listening to them too loud. When you cannot hear anything except the loud boom of a rocket blast you're missing alot.
Just my $2mil
After hearing and owning the Z560 and comparing them to the Klipsch 4.1 set. I have to say despite any false advertising the Z560s sound alot better to me than the Klipsch. the klipsch may have a bit more trebble, but the bass response is flat compared to the Z560s larger driver.
Also...anyone who knows anything can tell you that you can run as big as an amp as you want with ANY speaker as long as you don't boost distortion. In other words when you hear the familiar "fart" from the sub and any sort of noise and raspy sounds etc TURN IT DOWN! The ONLY way you can damage any speaker is to physically damage it or run it up until it starts distorting...i bet alot of people kill their Z560 sets by showing off. The Check out this volume type stuff. turn it up and turn on Q3 or something and hear explosions with the bass turned all the way up. That's how people kill their speakers. If you listen to them at normal levels where everything sounds smooth and doesn't sound like the sound crosses and details are hard to localize when a little EAX and positional audio is added then you're listening to them too loud. When you cannot hear anything except the loud boom of a rocket blast you're missing alot.
Just my $2mil
Seeing it from an engineering standpoing, I have the klipsch 4.1 and my brother has the logitechs... Now I've taken apart the klipschs promedias, but not the logitech and my explanations are:
1. The klipsch uses MOSFET output transistors, which allows it to run a little cooler than logitechs (I'm assuming it uses BJTs as on its output stages). The heatsink on the promedias is basically a 6x8 panel of aluminum which all the output transistors are mounted on. If you look at the logitech's heatsink, it protudes back a little.
2. Logitech's sub is much much larger than klipsch's two little ones. Larger subs = louder, stronger bass = lots more power used up.
3. Klipsch uses its own proprietary BASH power supply design. I'm not sure what logitech uses, but if I were to guess, its probably a general unregulated power supply.
I'm not saying that one brand is better than the other. My guess is that since the logitech runs pretty warm at standby, when it's driven hard the heatsinks probably aren't big enough to dissapate all that power.
1. The klipsch uses MOSFET output transistors, which allows it to run a little cooler than logitechs (I'm assuming it uses BJTs as on its output stages). The heatsink on the promedias is basically a 6x8 panel of aluminum which all the output transistors are mounted on. If you look at the logitech's heatsink, it protudes back a little.
2. Logitech's sub is much much larger than klipsch's two little ones. Larger subs = louder, stronger bass = lots more power used up.
3. Klipsch uses its own proprietary BASH power supply design. I'm not sure what logitech uses, but if I were to guess, its probably a general unregulated power supply.
I'm not saying that one brand is better than the other. My guess is that since the logitech runs pretty warm at standby, when it's driven hard the heatsinks probably aren't big enough to dissapate all that power.
Boost Distortion? Like I have said before, the speaker DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE TYPE OF POWER! The amount is what hurts the speaker. Your assumption about breaking speakers only by distorting is incorrect too. I could feed a 5" midrange driver a 1kW signal at 2khz with a true 1kW amplifier and get no distortion, but after awhile the speaker would fail. It mechanically would not bottom due to the frequency of the signal, but thermally would be overloaded due to the fact it has to disapate extreme amounts of power.
cmdrdredd
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2001
- 27,052
- 357
- 126
I'm not talking about putting massive power through something. I've hooked professional audio equipment up before and I've used 1,000Watt amps to speakers that are rated at 250Watts RMS and left them that way for weeks. As long as you don't turn them up where the power comming into the speaker exceeds the limits of the speaker it will be fine.
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