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An actually ENLIGHTENING rap music thread...

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xero940

Banned
Jan 6, 2002
692
0
0


<< it has finally achieved the legitimacy and commercial viability it always wanted, but now it's losing touch with what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. Now it's mainly a means to "bling" or "floss" and show how much you have versus the average guy, or even another rapper/group...which makes the lyrics meaningless (read: P. Diddy/majority of Bad Boy, Nelly, Ja Rule, et al.)

Do you see the inherent flaw of this goal?
For something to be commercially viable, it must offer that which the masses want to consume. Not many people, at least for sure, the monied masses, will consume a product about the plight and suffering of a marginalized group. What is there for suburban white boy to relate to?
As a result, rap music has trumped up the "I don't give a damn 'bout noone" aspect of the ghetto street culture - it is this "empowerment" (which may be seem liberating on the surface, but in reality the most defeatist of mentalities), that sells the music. As I said before, people (and especially white kids) by this music because it makes them feel tough - it masks their adolescent insecurity behind a wall of gruff. While initially an act, a mask worn too long doth become the face (or whatever Shakespeare said), and society's youth slowly erode and devolve.

You can argue on and on about breath control (and other "techniques of rap") but the reality is, that 99% of rap music listeners do not listen to rap on that level. Proof? Do a survey.

But no, you say. Mainstream guitar music is filled with garbage too. And indeed you are correct. However, this is where the relative difficulties of creation come in. Assuming that quality is not a factor (as you and I both agree that pop music blows), the fact is, putting together a band and putting out a tune (not to mention the vocals) is more difficult than spouting spoken poetry over a drumtrack. IT JUST IS - AND THIS IS WHY RAP MUSIC IS FULL OF BULLSH$T ARTISTS.

I could decide to be a rap star in the morning, book studio time for the evening, and come out with a rap tune by nighttime. You cannot do that with guitar-based music. You would need to learn the guitar, gather a session group, and write up a tune, and sing properly, or find someone who could.

EXAMPLE: Shaquille O'neal had a few rap tracks. Could he have come out with a rock CD? Could he sing? Most probably not. Could he speak words, yes, along with anyone else in America.


See, while both music - rap and guitar based - have produced incredible artists in their respective categories, the fact the rap music harbors no base talent for creation allows anyone and everyone to jump in and do their thing.

Here's a nice analogy to chew on:

If I draw a line across a canvas, and sell it for $50,000...does that make it art? Does that make me talented?
>>



I am willing to bet my LIFE that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT come up with a proper rap track. Because you subscribe to the foolish notion that rap is mostly "spouting spoken poetry over a drumtrack". It IS NOT. It has been tried, and failed too often to just "spout spoken poetry". You can't be a rapper without some measure of talent-NO ONE CAN. Even the worse rappers ever have more rhythm and breath control and wordplay talents than a non-rapper...they actually PRACTICE these things. I might not be able to tune a guitar like Dave Matthews can, but I definitely stand a chance rapping against him.

You seem to think that you don't have to learn how to rap, as if there aren't "Lyricist's Lounges" in NYC where rappers battle, exchange tips, practice and LEARN new techniques. Like they never have to learn how to maintain a fresh breath in order to maintain the time of the track's beat. Like you don't need to MAKE YOUR TRACK, put the beats and effects together, decide if you're going to use a sample, and which sample you might use, and of course, have to learn to "SPIT PROPERLY". That's right-a rapper has to sound good as well, so that his points are clear, and his song is understood. Rappers generally don't produce music for non-rap fans, so if YOU aren't "good enough" to understand the words, you shouldn't think the music is bad, you just haven't exposed yourself enough to understand it.

That Shaq example...you think he PRODUCED his tracks/records? HA! He had to get someone to do that for him, like the MAJORITY of hip-hop artists. Since we generally don't have bands per se, the track producer acts as a "roving band member" of sorts, able to mix and play the instruments, drum loops, amples and sounds that the track will be composed of. Shaq MAY have written his own songs, but he certainly did not make his tracks.

As for the difficulty issue, it's going to be JUST AS HARD for Joe Sixpack from Bumblefvck, WI to learn how to and create a rap song that is good (considering all you have to do to get something to rap OVER) as it is for Mr. Sixpack to gather some of his boys from Bumblefvck, learn how to sing/play instruments, and create a rock song that's good. Note the use of good as LEGITIMATE here, as this is the inherent problem with popular music: Good is an OPINION unless it's given a tangible meaning, like "legit".

What then, is legitimate? Respected by enough people to be both commercially viable and/or enjoyed by a "decent amount" (I say decent amount because this allows for underground artists of both rap or rock to be considered legitimate based on response of "educated underground crowds"...whatever :D) And the MAJORITY of rap fans are fans of GOOD RAPPERS, especially where I live...New York City, the birthplace of rap music, is the LAST PLACE ON EARTH that praises bad rappers...in fact, they get um..."hurt" :) So I won't do a survey here, as you'd stand absolutely no chance.

And if you made an art piece featuring a line across a canvas:

Is it art? Well, was it made in a particular style, say MINIMALIST?!?! If you made it to be true to that style, then yeah, it's art.

Can you sell it for $50,000? If someone who like minimalist art want's to pay that much, you'd be dumb not to take it...

Are you talented? You are talented if you are legitimate to the style you made your piece in, and it is generally liked by the (minimalist) art-loving public.


Anyway, I've been typing so long, I forgot what other stuff I was gonna post...Flame away boys...
 

erikiksaz

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 1999
5,486
0
76
It is true, mainstream rap has dedgraded into garbage. I'm sick of listening to rappers "rap" about hoes, i'm a gangsta, and whatever stupid crap they have on their minds. Don't they have anything else better to "rap" about? If it weren't for underground rap, i'd say that the genre of rap music is slowly dying out.

And something else that caught me off guard today. I was listening to a radio show this morning, I think it was Power 106. Well anyways, Lil Bow Wow was on the air. Some girl calls up and starts to slobber, "OOOOO, i HAVE ALL of your albums, and i listen to them 24/7!!" I just can't believe it. What could possibly be sooo interesting when it comes to the lyrics of a what, 10 year old?! :confused: What the hell can he possibly rap about; recess and how cruddy his caffeteria food is?!
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
18,436
4
0
i agree with xero completly, but im gonna study and I want this to be in my AT today page
 

Arschloch

Golden Member
Oct 29, 1999
1,014
0
0


<< Do you see the inherent flaw of this goal?
For something to be commercially viable, it must offer that which the masses want to consume. Not many people, at least for sure, the monied masses, will consume a product about the plight and suffering of a marginalized group. What is there for suburban white boy to relate to?
>>


While I don't feel like going into the debate of inherent "quality" or "difficulty" of creating rap and rock music, I felt that I'd at least comment on this statement.

Remember, rap went mainstream in the 90's with NWA. NWA was, of course, gangsta rap. Who was their core audience? None other than the suburban white boy, who of course couldn't personally relate to any of that, at all. I'm not going to say that suburban white teens were the "biggest" or "truest" fans, but certainly they bought a cubic a$$load of NWA CD's -- more than any other demographic.
 

Antoneo

Diamond Member
May 25, 2001
3,911
0
0


<< "hip-hop lifestyle radio station" such as Hot-97 in my native NYC. >>


I can attest to this as a New Yorker :). Hmm... is Stretch Armstrong's little show still going? I haven't listened in on Sunday nights for a long time. Sometimes they have some nice freestyles going on, unedited too lol. As to the topic on hand, I agree that most people overlook the nuances of rap that makes it special. A lot of people either don't understand what the artist says or understands some of it and judges the rest based on that one. With the onflux of commercial rap/hip hop everywhere, rap can only gain more bad rep by those who hate it. I tend to believe that "good" rap died off when Biggie/Tupac died. Don't get me wrong, there are some good artists out there (Mos Def, the Common, De La soul, Fat Joe, etc) but I just don't feel it. I don't know. Artists I really dislike: Nelly, Puff Daddy (I refuse to spell his other name), and Redman. I could list more but not now :).


<< I listened to hip hop as much as you back when I was 18. But I slowly realized that I couldnt take the stupidity of 99% of the rappers. All the songs my friends liked I wanted to crush their CDs (and faces) under my boot. And it kinda spoiled it for me. >>


BigDee2003I feel exactly the same way now.
 

mAdD INDIAN

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
7,804
1
0


<< Thanks xero940! :)

Any thoughts on the new meaning of "percolating"? Someone else said it was basically sex - i.e. "Let's get it percolating" means "Let's get it on". That accurate?

If so I reeeeeeally have to laugh at the local white-guy sportscaster here who said "The Bulls are hoping to get things percolating tonight with the Mavs..."
>>



Isn't percolating a chemistry term? Or am I thinking of perchlorate?? DAMN YOU CHEMISTRY! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

Back to topic::

NWA = Good rap
Juvenile = Bad rap you can fastfoward his songs and it sounds the same as when at the original position.

Secondly, I like Ja Rule. I may not like the lyrics of his songs, but he does have a very good flow. His song with J. Lo (I'm Real mix) really flowed well and sounded good. If Ja Rule teamed up with Mos Def or The Roots or something they would make a hype song!

Finally, Slick Rick also has great flow. The way he says his stories, it really is soothing yet entertaining. Too bad he doesn't make new songs now.
 

Thegonagle

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2000
9,773
0
71
I'm as much an NWA fan as any rap fan my age. I'm white, but don't you dare call me suburban. I have a general disdain for the suburbs and their inhabitants. Frickin suburban bore-asses can drive their Audis and SUVs through the jam packed main intersection in their "city" during rush hour at the mall. I can go out for a walk or a bike ride and interact with all kinds, types, and races of interesting people all within 12 blocks of where I sit.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0


<< Isn't percolating a chemistry term? Or am I thinking of perchlorate?? >>


Perchlorate is DEFINITELY a chem term.
Percolate might be....I dunno the dictionary def or the "hip" def outright, put percolating is a way to brew coffee. You put water in a pitcher or pot with the lid on and basket of coffee in the top part. As the water boils, it percolates up into the basket and collects coffee and then falls back into the pot.
It has something to do with bubbling up.
 

CichliSuite

Senior member
Jan 31, 2001
822
0
0
I am willing to bet my LIFE that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT come up with a proper rap track. Because you subscribe to the foolish notion that rap is mostly "spouting spoken poetry over a drumtrack". It IS NOT. It has been tried, and failed too often to just "spout spoken poetry". You can't be a rapper without some measure of talent-NO ONE CAN. Even the worse rappers ever have more rhythm and breath control and wordplay talents than a non-rapper...they actually PRACTICE these things. I might not be able to tune a guitar like Dave Matthews can, but I definitely stand a chance rapping against him.


Really? I couldn't come up with a proper rap track? See there is so much in the above to take apart, but rather than address it from scratch, I can point out the contradiction using your own words. Here's what you say regarding my art example:

And if you made an art piece featuring a line across a canvas:

Is it art? Well, was it made in a particular style, say MINIMALIST?!?! If you made it to be true to that style, then yeah, it's art.


So, why is my rap song, not proper? If I made it to be "true" to that style, then is my work no less "legitimate (or "proper" as you say) than NWA, Public Enemy, or Nas?

Are you talented? You are talented if you are legitimate to the style you made your piece in, and it is generally liked by the (minimalist) art-loving public.

So in other words, talent stems then from some abstract notion of legitimacy, coupled with an acceptance of the consumer. Is Ludacris, or those other morons talented in your book? They fit your definition, do they not?


See, you are both riding on an argument of relativism, using consumer appreciation and and a legitimate intent to define the validity of rap music, but then agure that I categorically could not come up with a "proper" track. In short, rap is music if one is sincere and people like it, yet there indeed exists a definition "proper" rap, which according to you I can't reach.

Which is it?

You ascribe the notion of talent to something that far too many people posess. Talent is talent because of its relative scarcity. MANY, MANY, MANY people can rap like "rappers" do. I've seen it done, by friends, foes, and everyone in between. While there may be people who refine rapping by paying attention to subtleties which, rather than inherent, I believe are imputed into it, this is not practiced by the majority of fans - hell, to most fans, rap music is in fact so devalued as to make up one of the many required tools of the "black" persona.
An art is created OUT of rap when people start subscribing to a set of criteria added to the equation. Then it ceases to be the original action, but that action IN LIGHT OF the criteria, like breath control, etc, etc. THIS, however, IS NOT what most rap is about, and if you argue otherwise, then your underground rap wouldn't be underground after all, and would enjoy the popularity you think it so richly deserves.






 

CichliSuite

Senior member
Jan 31, 2001
822
0
0
Furthermore, just a quick question.

1. If consumer demand is so crucial to determining validity of music, why then are morons like Ludacris and Mace (who literally sounds like a brain-damaged child) so well accepted?

2. What is being approved of there? What is being consumed there? The mace's "breath control", or his persona, clothes and backing drumtrack?

3. Why do you think that Rap music, if you do (as I think you may), is so "polluted" with crap, much more so than guitar-based pop? How is it possible to be so polluted with garbage, if it wasn't for the sheer lack of criteria by which to judge quality? Could it be that rap music is incredibly easy to generate? That all that is needed is a computer audio engineer, a drumloop and accompanying looped sample, and then some fool up front to sell clothes?

4. Why is it that KrissKross, remember them, were taken off the streets of Atlanta (Source), given an album and then it went PLATINUM?!
But before you argue that Backstreet Boys, Britney, and the like are guitar-based equivalents....the boybands and girls can actually sing!


 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0


<< consumer demand >>

Consumer demand is no longer a valid metric for quality...if indeed it ever was at all. Record labels constantly "manufacture" consumer demand. They take a pretty blonde girl from Louisiana, write her some crappy songs and put a slutty outfit on her. Heck, she can't even sing without a vocoder.
Normally that would not be enough.
But then they simply "arrange" for her to appear on MTV and Rolling Stone and buy some national spots for her. They tell the population "you like Britany Spears" and like a God, she is suddenly liked. Same occurs in rap.

I also have an issue with:


<< Is it art? Well, was it made in a particular style, say MINIMALIST?!?! If you made it to be true to that style, then yeah, it's art. >>


Is it truly art if it was made solely to conform to a specific musical style? I feel like abstract artists are often scam artists, however:
If an artist drew a single line on canvas because he believed it conveyed some meaning about emptiness, solitude, singularity, etc, that is entirely different than an "artist" saying "I'm a minimalist, therefore I shall only draw a line on canvas."

A song or work of art that is "technically" inferior yet emotionally powerful is more a work of art than one which is "technically" perfect yet lacks any feeling whatsoever.

 

skylark

Senior member
Feb 24, 2001
798
0
0
xerox940, I've been surfing around and checking the hiphop/bboying scene. I'm rather new to this culture. I came across LPC, Mr. Wiggles, Popin Pete, and Skeeter Rabbit. I've seen some of vid clips from Wiggles and LPC and its......PHACKING ORGASMIC!! :D

The liquid-popping and locking / hitting is just godsmacking far out!

I'll try to get some links for these vids..

 

Arschloch

Golden Member
Oct 29, 1999
1,014
0
0


<< Furthermore, just a quick question.

1. If consumer demand is so crucial to determining validity of music, why then are morons like Ludacris and Mace (who literally sounds like a brain-damaged child) so well accepted?
...
>>


It's nice to hear someone share my viewpoint on Mace. In terms of his ability to enunciate words, he's probably the worst rapper I've ever heard. mumblemumblemumble...

On the other hand, I just saw a book by him in Barnes and Noble the other day. Apparently he's become a man of God? Talk about a career change... I didn't know that bootylicious videos were compatible with priesthood.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Hehe, yep, mace is a minister.

I think youre mistaking everyones viewpoints here though. I dont think most people here have a problem with the art form of rap, lyrics over a beat etc etc...They have a problem with its current content and lyrical presentation. If decent rappers were given decent exposure most people would forget about ludicras and all these wastes of time. But thats not going to happen, because it makes too much money for MTV.

Just look at how popular rock/rap is, and youll see whats I mean. While some of these guys may be mediocre singers and/or rappers, and its usually ear bleeding loud, at least its not bitches, guns and money. That only impresses teenagers. Mostly because teenagers will do whats necessary to be popular, and that includes listening to rap.

If the public was shown a decent rapper rhyming about something other that what we've heard a million times, it'll blow people's minds. Unfortunately talent is usually wasted. Eminem was a damn good rapper, until he went mainstream. Lyrics and storytelling were second to none. And then all of a sudden he started rapping about nsync and britney spears and how famous he was blah blah and just went for shock value...what a shame.

Now wheres my mos def cd, wanna listen to "New World Water". 4 minutes of a guy rapping about WATER. Pretty good stuff....
 

bigalt

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2000
1,525
0
0

i think that anyone who can't appreciate the lyrical ability of some of the more intelligent rap groups just a little bit has to be dead. if you listen to the words, some of them can really get you thinking. the obscurity and diversity of some of the references is impressive, and the sheer cleverness of some lines just makes me giddy.

i think the retarded rap that's popular has its place as well. i personally hate it but if someone singing 'shake that ass' makes somebody happy (and willing to shake her ass) then how can it be bad. unless it's testament to the brainwashing power mtv and accompanying popular radio stations have in which case its scary.

my favorite line I heard recently was:

shocking your ass like a faulty vibrator

i was sitting on the plane and started cracking up.
 

xero940

Banned
Jan 6, 2002
692
0
0
Hey...nice to see that the flaming in this particular rap thread is at a minimum...Great replies by all. Looks like I'll have to be AT's rap defender from now on :D Where is firestar?

Anyway, I'll answer other questions in the thread later...all I wanted was for everyone to have a place for opinions and such...it's good to see such good stuff here...ATOT rules!

As for the popping and locking, skylark...GET THOSE LINKS UP! I need more stuff to look at and learn from...anyone know any good sites for popping/locking/breaking?

Topside...

 

Pepsi90919

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,162
1
81
percolating means to make coffee.

percolating in mary j blige's song means probably to "engage in conversation" :D
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Mainstream groups with actual rapping skills are few and far between, definitely. I'd say the only rap artists that really preserve the scene are Black Eyed Peas and Dilated Peoples. Most of the new crap by these kids is just that...CRAP. Some of the best raps I've heard are on Roll Call (callers compete w/ freestyling) on the radio.

 

xero940

Banned
Jan 6, 2002
692
0
0
Well...let me quickly get the "percolating" thing cleared up...

When someone uses the term "percolating" in a slang style vernacular, it means, "get something started/going"

i.e. "Aiyyo, Xero! You see 'dem honeys ova there? Let's go see if we can't git sumthin' percolatin' wit' em, 'nawhatI'msayin'?"

Translation: "Hey, Xero? Do you see those highly attractive young females over in that direction? Let's proceed to find out if we can make conversation with them, understand?"

Generally, it's used like that...however, it can be used with a decidedly sexual connotation...

i.e. "Yo, Shaniqua...you mad hot, boo! Lessay we git back to ma crib, we can git something percolatin', 'namean? *seductive smile*"

Translation: "Hey, Shaniqua...you are exceptionally sexy, beautiful! What do you say, we can go back to my home, where we can get something started (hopefully involving my genitals and you :D), know what I mean? *seductive smile*"

See, urban lingo isn'tso hard to get now, is it? BTW, Mary J. Blige is the LAST person to attempt to understand...she really makes up words..."crac-u-latin"? "Let's get it funked upon it"? Negative. :D A prime example of some of that quality Yonkers schooling...
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
18,436
4
0


<< Well...let me quickly get the "percolating" thing cleared up...
When someone uses the term "percolating" in a slang style vernacular, it means, "get something started/going"
i.e. "Aiyyo, Xero! You see 'dem honeys ova there? Let's go see if we can't git sumthin' percolatin' wit' em, 'nawhatI'msayin'?"
Translation: "Hey, Xero? Do you see those highly attractive young females over in that direction? Let's proceed to find out if we can make conversation with them, understand?"
Generally, it's used like that...however, it can be used with a decidedly sexual connotation...
i.e. "Yo, Shaniqua...you mad hot, boo! Lessay we git back to ma crib, we can git something percolatin', 'namean? *seductive smile*"
Translation: "Hey, Shaniqua...you are exceptionally sexy, beautiful! What do you say, we can go back to my home, where we can get something started (hopefully involving my genitals and you :D), know what I mean? *seductive smile*"
See, urban lingo isn'tso hard to get now, is it? BTW, Mary J. Blige is the LAST person to attempt to understand...she really makes up words..."crac-u-latin"? "Let's get it funked upon it"? Negative. :D A prime example of some of that quality Yonkers schooling...
>>


lol, the way that you phrased that sounds like that 'learn to speak ebonics' MP3 floating around :)
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0


<< "Hey, Xero? Do you see those highly attractive young females over in that direction? Let's proceed to find out if we can make conversation with them, understand?" >>


Yes, my homey. Let us proceed to make good conversation with those youthful damsels!
:D
 

mundania

Senior member
Jun 17, 2000
921
0
0
great thread guys... bump for all the participants

causing me to think and re-think about rap.. agh ;)

damn this thinking
 

skylark

Senior member
Feb 24, 2001
798
0
0


<< Hey...nice to see that the flaming in this particular rap thread is at a minimum...Great replies by all. Looks like I'll have to be AT's rap defender from now on :D Where is firestar?

Anyway, I'll answer other questions in the thread later...all I wanted was for everyone to have a place for opinions and such...it's good to see such good stuff here...ATOT rules!

As for the popping and locking, skylark...GET THOSE LINKS UP! I need more stuff to look at and learn from...anyone know any good sites for popping/locking/breaking?

Topside...
>>



I'm having problems but here's some:

LPC's Eric, Master of Slinkiness


Mr. Wiggles, Boogaloo Funkmeister

I recommend all of Wiggles' clips.

www.style2ouf.com

Goto the Video -> Dance section. I recommend 15,16,17.

As for sites, good ol google searches..

So check out the clips. If Eric doesn't make you cream your pants, you need to be slapped! :D


BTW - LPC has the first ever Liquid-pop/ Digits Instructional video out. Their website is www.reflective.net and lpclabs.com (to order). LPC is from your hometown, NYC (brooklyn).

EDIT: I suggest people zoom the clip to 400% since some of them are hard to see from bad lighting.


KtP
Sky