An actually ENLIGHTENING rap music thread...

[xero940]

First thing: I am an 18 year old black male from NYC, and a BIG computer techie, as well as a hip-hop HEAD. I eat, sleep and breathe rap music. I freestyle and write rap music. My uncle is a beatmaker, keyboardist, and turntablist. BUT most importantly, I post here and am a big computer geek. Therefore, with my propensity to spit lyrical fire and venom hotter than baked Sun, as well as write the object code to place those quality lyrics in a DOS box on your screen, after finishing my 17th Athlon rig and neffing about it here, I stand as an exception to the rule that "techies aren't hip-hop heads".

Next thing: I agree that the majority of people who look/listen to rap nowadays are exposed via "diluted" outlets like MTV, and BET to a lesser extent. When you use these channels as your basis for what rap music is or how good it may be, you are doing yourself a disservice...a better means of finding better rap music is to listen to a good "hip-hop lifestyle radio station" such as Hot-97 in my native NYC. Though the "poppier" rap music is played here, the more underground stuff is played here as well. Better still is to use some of your techie ingenuity and get you to a good rap music critique and review website, like THIS... Here you'll be able to learn about what REAL GOOD RAP MUSIC is, as well as some of the things that make rap music so very complex, like:

-lyrical structure
-breath control
-style of delivery
-complexity of metaphors/puns/punchlines/hooks
-diversity of metaphors/puns/punchlines/hooks
-rhyme structure
-content/context of the song/music/lyrics
-manner in which rapper uses beats/track to accentuate/empower lyrics

among many other things...Thus, I conclude that rap has a VAST number of complexities, akin to something like "classical style" music, or rock music, especially considering rap music has it's "instruments" of sorts-the rapper's voice and delivery style is an instrument, the turntable, the samplers, the keyboards and synthesizers, the track, the drums, and the other instruments used sometimes like guitars, flutes, and the like join other instuments used...and that's not counting the instruments SAMPLED in track samples and loops used by producers like Dr. Dre or Timbaland (premier rap producers)

As you become engrossed in this music, and subsequently it's respective culture, you'll beging to gain a proper, deeper understanding of things you didn't before, like the actual lyrics, and underlying meanings to what is being said. Sometimes, you'll even be able to listen to particularly good songs and notice something you totally missed before as your "hip-hop IQ" rises, and appreciate it further...

Last thing: I fully understand if after you do all of this, you still don't like, or at least respect the talent of a GOOD rap musician. I DON'T and won't understand some of y'all still flaming this VERY LEGITIMATE MUSICAL ART FORM and it's listeners/defenders having done none of this, and telling me that based on "H to the Izzo", rap is trash. And to say that this music is "butch homo music" or what ever that guy in that recent rap opinion threadsaid is like saying "country music is for inbred drunks and objectifying hayseed women and general hatreds", or that "rock music is for whiny girl-men to vent their agressions and be ridiculously loud, but without stepping on anyone's toes"...it's a dumb-ass prejudice. You open your mind to a style of music, you might get to like it...I'm done for now; if you want to flame, go for it, but realize that you'll need to back it up with some good stuff...oh, and my rant has PERFECT grammar and spelling, so HA!

PS: What happened to those freestyle rap threads that used to pop up from time to time? I think user "joshpokeball", "dwell", and "firestarter" or something like that used to run those, and they were great, as lots of users made raps, tried raps, or just neffed all in fun...make a new one or something!

 

[xero940]

bumparoo for hip-hop too! hey, that rhymed

 

[BD2003]

Good rappers are few and far between. Youre going to have to deal with the fact that the rap people see is bitches, guns, and gold chains. And thats going to dilute it.

I listened to hip hop as much as you back when I was 18. But I slowly realized that I couldnt take the stupidity of 99% of the rappers. All the songs my friends liked I wanted to crush their CDs (and faces) under my boot. And it kinda spoiled it for me.

Couple that with the fact that the MC rarely makes his own music, and they lose a lot of respect in many peoples eyes. A decent rapper could come up with a song in a half hour or less, and most of them do.

Not to mention hiphop is almost strictly rythmic as opposed to melodic. Many people simply dont consider it music because its not melodic.

I've still got my roots, common, and tribe CDs. Theyre going nowhere. Theyre just gonna have to share the shelf with the Deftones and Linkin Park now.

 

[gopunk]

And to say that this music is "butch homo music" or what ever that guy in that recent rap opinion threadsaid is like saying "country music is for inbred drunks and objectifying hayseed women and general hatreds", or that "rock music is for whiny girl-men to vent their agressions and be ridiculously loud, but without stepping on anyone's toes"...it's a dumb-ass prejudice.

would you be angry if i agreed with all three stereotypes you just made?


make a song about anandtech and then i'll believe you

 

[TheShiz]

I can't get into rap now because it rarely is very melodic. Maybe there is some good stuff but I've lost interest too much to go searching for it. I can still get down to some old Dre and Snoop or some older 2 pac, I think that most rap can't hold a candle to that stuff.

Tim

 

[VirusDub]

I respect rap as its own art form. However, I have a hard time respecting a large number of the artists because of their attitudes. I enjoy older rap music more than the current and recent crops.

 

[Ns1]

<< My uncle is a beatmaker, keyboardist, and turntablist >>



much props =)

 

[Desturel]

I like listening to the bad rap as well as the good. Sometimes just to laugh. Ludacris is the main example. Damn, his songs are so extremely stupid, they make me laugh. I don't take them seriously and I don't see how some people can take them seriously. Just listen to Saturday, Area Codes or Roll Out (My Business) and you should know they are comedy raps. The ones that are totally serious about the crap they spew (ie Jay-Z) I ignore.

 

[pdiddy]

the good ones, like J-5, Mos Def, Talib, Last Emperor, don't get the props they deserve. Instead you have guys like Ja Rule and Nelly taking all the burn

...what a shame

 

[VRoOMdesigns]

<< the good ones, like J-5, Mos Def, Talib, Last Emperor, don't get the props they deserve. Instead you have guys like Ja Rule and Nelly taking all the burn

...what a shame

>>

and yet you take on the nickname "pdiddy?"

 

[BD2003]

<< and yet you take on the nickname "pdiddy?" >>



Heh, he's got a point there. Care to explain?

 

[xero940]

Let me say first: I can easily write a rap about neffing, or locked posts, or ATOT, or anything...in fact, having read through the archive of posts AT keeps looking for the original freestyle threads and for users "firestar46", "dwell", and "joshpokeball", I think I might resurrect the rap-neffing tradition here, so EVERYONE has to deal with rap music all the time! BWHAHAHA!!!...ahem

Second, Rap music today is caught in a dilemma of it's own doing-it has finally achieved the legitimacy and commercial viability it always wanted, but now it's losing touch with what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. Now it's mainly a means to "bling" or "floss" and show how much you have versus the average guy, or even another rapper/group...which makes the lyrics meaningless (read: P. Diddy/majority of Bad Boy, Nelly, Ja Rule, et al.)

Quality rap is made by those who are "hungry"-that is to say, those who aren't as commercially sucessful, or wish to stress a meaningful message, or have been held back by someone/somethin/society and want to talk about it, or are just angry about their life's path and need to vent passionately-thus making THEM the oppressed/repressed/average people...they ACQUIRE the voice of the people, and can wield it properly. A perfect example of a hungrier rapper is Nas. He's had success with his first album, "Illmatic" (Best rap EVER.) He was hungry to get into the game and make a name for himself, to be able to get out of the ghetto which had destroyed his best friend and darkened the lives of him and the people he loved. The record told his story deeply and profoundly...it sold ridiculously well. Then success caused him to lose touch with what made the music good-the heart and truth in the story he was telling. He released 3 wack albums which did not sell well at all (It Was Written, I Am, Nastradamus), and then followed that up with a wack ensemble album (QB's Finest). His success had eluded him, and he was forced to prove his legitimacy. This ANGERED him, and thus the best rap album of 2001 was released, "Stillmatic".

His hunger was restored by being placed in essentially the same situation he was in before...

Third: Heh, your username is "pdiddy" in a rap thread...hopefully you still have arms after all the flaming you might receive

fourth: I MIGHT give you guys a verse or two if you ask nicely in PM

 

[Jzero]

<< what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. >>


This can be said for nearly every musical genre from Opera to New Age. The best music...or any art, for that matter, is that which is made by people who are emotionally connected to their work.

 

[Arschloch]

<<

<< what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. >>


This can be said for nearly every musical genre from Opera to New Age. The best music...or any art, for that matter, is that which is made by people who are emotionally connected to their work. >>


Follow along with me:

Britney Spears : Pop :: Nelly : Rap

 

[xero940]

<<

<< what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. >>


This can be said for nearly every musical genre from Opera to New Age. The best music...or any art, for that matter, is that which is made by people who are emotionally connected to their work. >>



Can you really say that though? Can one person listen to say, Beethoven's Symphony #9 and say "Yeah, this is really talking about me...I understand what he's talking about.."? I believe that rap music, b/c it uses the rapper as an INSTRUMENT more than any other form of music, can convey more feelings and ideas better than a lot of other musics...not to say that "rap is better" though...

 

[pyonir]

xero940 - couldnt agree with you more. i am a caucasian guy from minnesota, but have always enjoyed the "deeper" rap music and artists. Nas's first album, was spectacular. i have always kept an open mind to music in the hopes that i wouldn't block out something that i may like, and find that i enjoy numerous different music styles. I also agree that the music you hear on the radio and on MTV is garbage and nothing more than trying to show you have more money than me. I've figured that out, thank you. good thread and i really hope no ingorant person flames it.

 

[Optimus]

Ooo! My thread died a horrible death, so I'll reask here.

What do the following mean (help an old square dude out!)

1) percolating (as used by Mary J. Blige)

2) The following lyrics:

H to the Izzo!
V to the Izzay!
Nizzle my izzle down in VA!



Honestly, I'm curious and feeling "square" - can anyone translate?

Thanks!

 

[Jzero]

<< Can you really say that though? Can one person listen to say, Beethoven's Symphony #9 and say "Yeah, this is really talking about me...I understand what he's talking about.."? I believe that rap music, b/c it uses the rapper as an INSTRUMENT more than any other form of music, can convey more feelings and ideas better than a lot of other musics...not to say that "rap is better" though... >>



Absolutely. Just because you don't get the message, that doesn't mean it's not there. The music's message comes from the artist and appeals to the listener who also thinks he hears that message coming from within himself.
So you can say "Can one person...."
But you cannot say "Can all people..." because not everyone can hear Beethoven's message for themselves. Beethoven's a bad example anyway b/c he sucks
As for using the rapper as an "instrument" I dispute that statement heavily. Perhaps the rapper is a percussion instrument, but 99% of rap is a lot of fast talking without any real message.
Or maybe I just don't get the message
It uses a different device to convey the same feelings and ideas that an other musical form is capable of conveying. It may be somewhat better at conveying anger, but I've yet to hear a rap song convey tranquility.
Any style has its limitations and benefits.
The fact that rap is no exception should legitimize it as a musical from, not illegitimize it.

 

[Phil21]

"True" rap may well be great music (I remember faintly back in the mid-early 90's some kids were pretty good at freestyle in my neighborhood), but because of most of the "popular" rap, it's gotten a huge bad name in many people's (including mine) books.

It all comes down to attitude and glorifying a lifestyle which is detrimental to society as a whole. I grew up in the inner city, and seeing the kids pretty much LIVE a rap song (well, wanna-be living the rap song mostly. ), just made you sick. I think it has transdened(sp) "black culture" and kind of goes into the "ghetto culture" or some other type of strange place in this world. I think much of the problems of the lower-class living in the ghetto people are due to glorifying this type of lifestyle. It's kind of a chicken and the egg scenario though, bad conditions made the music, and to an extent now music is making the bad conditions.

I don't know, I can't really convey what I mean effectively unless I really would sit down and figure it out. All I know is from first-hand expeirience I don't respect many "downtrodden" poeple who live the "thug" lifestyle. Most of those people I met/had interaction with didn't make any effort whatsoever to get out of the rut they were in.

I dunno, got a bit offtopic, but I'm trying to explain my problem with most "rap" these days. That said, I do respect some rap artists, they have some dang good talent.

-Phil

 

[xero940]

<< Ooo! My thread died a horrible death, so I'll reask here.

What do the following mean (help an old square dude out!)

1) percolating (as used by Mary J. Blige)

2) The following lyrics:

H to the Izzo!
V to the Izzay!
Nizzle my izzle down in VA!



Honestly, I'm curious and feeling "square" - can anyone translate?

Thanks! >>



Done.

"H to the Izzo! V to the Izzay! Fo' shizzle my nizzle, used to dribble down in VA!"

means:

"H" to the "O"! "V" to the "A"! For sure, my N*gga, I used to live/play basketball in Virginia.

Purpose/meaning of statement: NONE. It rhymes and keep the time of his song, is all.
It also spells out his nickname, Young/Jay-HOVA, which calls up the name "Jehovah", who is considered God (in the Jehovah's Witness religious sect), which in turn coronates Jay-Z as "God Of Rap", which as proven by that line, is total BULL$HIT

As for your argument Jzero: Point taken I agree...and I also agree that you don't get rap very much either when you say stuff like "but 99% of rap is a lot of fast talking without any real message." Glad you caught yourself by saying you don't get it

Read my top-most post. That IS rap.

 

[Thegonagle]

Ooh! Minnesota?s getting? represented here. Hi pyonir, hi Phil

Nice post, xero940

Good site, too.

I?m a white boy and a fan of almost any kind of music, ya know, if it?s good, and that definitely includes rap. You?re very right about the ?rap? played on MTV and the pop radio stations. Most of it is not so hot.

I?ve lived in Minneapolis all my life. We?ve got a very active music and arts scene for a city our size. The Rhyme Sayers are brilliant, IMO. (Atmosphere, others)

The Rhyme Sayers are on a local 2 hour radio hip-hop mix show pretty often. Every few weeks, some rappers come in and go freestylin?. I've been recording the show most weeks since last April. When I get around to installing a larger hard drive, I?ll start transferring them to CD and my hard drive, and hopefully, I?ll get a small (slow cable uploads )FTP running on occasion so can share these broadcasts with rap fans. Maybe some people can identify some of the artists, because the DJs rarely announce the music they play (though they?re getting better recently because people have been calling the show and telling them to announce the songs).

Everyone longing for another ?good? album to put in their collection should go buy the Lucy Ford album by Atmosphere. Deep lyrics, legit non-violent message, dope beats. He's not rappin about bitches and thugs. It?s my kind of hip-hip.

 

[Optimus]

Thanks xero940!

Any thoughts on the new meaning of "percolating"? Someone else said it was basically sex - i.e. "Let's get it percolating" means "Let's get it on". That accurate?

If so I reeeeeeally have to laugh at the local white-guy sportscaster here who said "The Bulls are hoping to get things percolating tonight with the Mavs..."

 

[royaldank]

I'm not saying this is my opinion, but when looking at a topic, it's in your best interest to consider all the angles, or opinions. Many people don't like rap and call it a complete waste of time. However, as this thread shows, there are people that bash classical music as well as rock and country music. However, you need to see why people don't respect it. With rap, many people (and I'll just say people from here on to describe those that don't like rap) don't like it because the emphasise is on the vocals. People see that the whole song can develop around a set of lyrics and as it's more rythmic than melodic, they don't see the conhesion. I have trouble finding little more than a 4/4 beat thumping in the background on lots of rap. There are other bells and whistles, but the it's basically a drum machine pumping out a 4/4 beat. But, that isn't the important part of the music as you see it. People don't see it this way. They want to hear the music, not someone rapping over top it. They have trouble hearing the words seeing how there is a rythm to what is being said. Words that don't mean anything thrown in so that it rhyms throws people off. It makes it appear silly. People see this as something anyone can do. And then rappers start saying they can freestyle. They can make up lyrics on the stop, generally without music. People start seeing this as something that anyone can do. They don't see the Chili Peppers get up on stage and just make up a song. Bands traditionaly don't go out on stage and make up songs. Of course you could argue that there are solos and freestyle could be analagous to that. But that just isn't the case. The solo in music is traditionaly within the confines of a song structure. The melody is generally twisted and turned within a specific chord structure to produce ranges that are asthetic to the ear and mathematically similar. There is alot of mathematics behind music as it has evolved over the years from classical music to today's music. You can break down classical music into equations and see that structures are following sequences found elsewhere in nature. So, people have seen this all their lives and it just kind of flows. But, rap music is different. The beats seem very simplistic to alot of people that don't like it. The singing is what determines the song as the background beats could be the same from the rap song they heard just before the one they hear now. So, the real skill is in writing the lyrics and speaking them which most people don't get. They can't understand what is being said, or it's some inside joke that only the rapper and his friends understand.

The other main reason is because of what the whole scene around rap is. Gold chains, guns, gats, b!tches and hos. It turns many people off. It promotes the lifestyle of walking around getting mad about everything. Being you own man. Looking out for yourself and your boys. Explaining why you are better than the next guy. There isn't enough variation in rap that is easily available to people. Most of what is played is gansta or gang related rap, or others singing about how great life is because they are so cool they got hos in all area codes. If you gave someone who doesn't like rap for these reasons a disc from Disposable Heros, they might actually hear something they like. Anger, but in a controlled manner. Not someone getting mad wanting to shoot someone else.

I like some rap, but not very much. However, I like some classical, but not others. I like some rock, but not others. The rap I enjoy is more along the lines of Public Enemy or Disposable Heros, which is very political (I have a rock/folk influence, which is mainly built around political issues). Then there is stuff like Slick Rick which is funny, and stuff like Q-Tip which has good background music and smooth lyrics. You can understand them and what they are talking about (ok, maybe not Slick Rick all the time...his voice is funky). The Beasties are good, but rap fans are generally quick to dismiss the Beastie Boys. They were very instrumental in getting rap music to where it is today in terms of industry acceptance and widespread play time.

And you also made a point about true rap is from the hungry. I think it's more that it's from the motivated. All music is inspired by hardships and/or experiences. Rap isn't exclusive. If an artist isn't motivated, they aren't going to produce true art.

I hope I didn't offend. I'm not against rap. Rather I was trying to point out some views that you might not have seen before and weren't posted here. I'm all for art and I hope anyone interested in creating art tries as best they can to express themselves. Just don't get mad when it's not accepted by all of society.

My favorite music is jam band hippie music like moe., phil & friends, String Cheese, phish, etc. The theme is usually be good to each other and have a good time. Help your fellow man.

 

[CichliSuite]

it has finally achieved the legitimacy and commercial viability it always wanted, but now it's losing touch with what it REALLY is supposed to be-the voices of the the oppressed/repressed/average people, telling a story that can be FELT as easily as it can be understood or heard. Now it's mainly a means to "bling" or "floss" and show how much you have versus the average guy, or even another rapper/group...which makes the lyrics meaningless (read: P. Diddy/majority of Bad Boy, Nelly, Ja Rule, et al.)

Do you see the inherent flaw of this goal?
For something to be commercially viable, it must offer that which the masses want to consume. Not many people, at least for sure, the monied masses, will consume a product about the plight and suffering of a marginalized group. What is there for suburban white boy to relate to?
As a result, rap music has trumped up the "I don't give a damn 'bout noone" aspect of the ghetto street culture - it is this "empowerment" (which may be seem liberating on the surface, but in reality the most defeatist of mentalities), that sells the music. As I said before, people (and especially white kids) by this music because it makes them feel tough - it masks their adolescent insecurity behind a wall of gruff. While initially an act, a mask worn too long doth become the face (or whatever Shakespeare said), and society's youth slowly erode and devolve.

You can argue on and on about breath control (and other "techniques of rap") but the reality is, that 99% of rap music listeners do not listen to rap on that level. Proof? Do a survey.

But no, you say. Mainstream guitar music is filled with garbage too. And indeed you are correct. However, this is where the relative difficulties of creation come in. Assuming that quality is not a factor (as you and I both agree that pop music blows), the fact is, putting together a band and putting out a tune (not to mention the vocals) is more difficult than spouting spoken poetry over a drumtrack. IT JUST IS - AND THIS IS WHY RAP MUSIC IS FULL OF BULLSH$T ARTISTS.

I could decide to be a rap star in the morning, book studio time for the evening, and come out with a rap tune by nighttime. You cannot do that with guitar-based music. You would need to learn the guitar, gather a session group, and write up a tune, and sing properly, or find someone who could.

EXAMPLE: Shaquille O'neal had a few rap tracks. Could he have come out with a rock CD? Could he sing? Most probably not. Could he speak words, yes, along with anyone else in America.


See, while both music - rap and guitar based - have produced incredible artists in their respective categories, the fact the rap music harbors no base talent for creation allows anyone and everyone to jump in and do their thing.

Here's a nice analogy to chew on:

If I draw a line across a canvas, and sell it for $50,000...does that make it art? Does that make me talented?

 

[johneetrash]

you'll find so much more talent underground than mainstream. there are only a token number of mainstream artists that are good, but there are so much more underground.

and thats for ANY type of music.

/me used to b-boy, now i just sit around playing hardcore on my guitar