America's Secret Weapon

[novon]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A positive attitude grafted on a fool makes for a good clown. I measure a person not so much by their attitude as by their aim. In that respect the best I have heard is the Buddhist who prays to save every sentient being.

But as an attitude requires subject matter on which to act, an intention to save is contingent on capacity to do so.

So while a good attitude can work wonders, the real key, in my opinion, is having real knowledge and understanding.

A pessimist, sometimes, is an optimist with extra information.

Positive attitude helps, of course, because people unconsciously hate themselves. But that hate is based on a lie. Being positive is a way to help starve that lie and provide concrete proof that in fact it is a lie.

But where a positive attitude is dangerous is when it is part of the denial of those negative feelings. When people start to stress and strain to be positive when they really feel like dying, it's time to get to the psychiatrists couch or better yet into group therapy.

Logic and pep talk do not change deep rooted and unconscious feelings. They are best felt and relived so one knows inwardly that they were lies. A positive attitude is best when one knows the real enemy and one can allow oneself to feel anything that is really there to feel.

To go positive and avoid negative is just a mental illness based on how deeply negative one really inward is.

The greatest news, that there is nothing wrong with you simply can't be believed.

The reason people fail is because they can't take success. It creates a dissonance of feeling. It is why people cry when they win. This contrasts too much with the feeling of what is the real me.

But when you see a young chimp swing through the trees full of the joy of life, you see your real self.

As Meher Baba, whose attitude was perfect like to say, "I am the Divinely Beloved who loves you more than you can possibly ever love yourself. Relax and be happy."

gold!

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There are different kinds of positive attitudes.

There is the positive attitude that is constructed to hide personal pain and pretend it doesn't exist. This is a forced kind of positivity that is a form of mental illness.

And there is the positive attitude that is natural to man. This is the joy we see in animals, and children before they are completely destroyed.

Positive adults are almost always of the former type and often of those who are profoundly successful at repressing their pain.

This is why in mythology and religion there is the notion that the road to heaven goes through hell. The Hero must face his feeling of self hate and self doubt and discover their shadow reality. It is the same on the psychiatrists couch. One relives ones pain in order to transform and transcend it.

For almost all of us the way up is down.

There is no need for a positive attitude really because negative does not exist.

The mind that is free is timeless and in love.

I agree with your second type of positive attitude as being the "natural" attitude of man. You wake up in the morning happy to be alive and eager to start the day instead of hating yourself. That hate eventually leads to not only hating yourself, but everthing and everbody.

I don't understand how that precludes someone having a negative attitude? Abe Lincoln said that most people are as happy as they make their minds up to be. You asked for an absoulte truth earlier in the thread and I believe that statment is as close as one can get to an absoule truth in this world, but it seems to me it has to do with people's negatives attitudes?

Clearly people have neagative attitudes????

Edit:

If man doesn't have a positive attitude because his natural attitude is all he needs. then what do you call it when he chooses to ignore that attitude? Ignorance??

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: arsbanned


Upon re-reading the passage, my previous characterization was way off. However, you can't possibly feel the current administration follows such a philosophy. They've used fear to govern more than anything else. Optimism is not in George Bush's lexicon.

I don't think you understand what cwjerome was trying to say to you arsbanned....

You're probably right.

 

[imported_siberus]

Originally posted by: cwjerome


Because of your subjective view of reality, there can be no absolutes, no truth, no good or evil, nothing firm or real or stable. With this outlook one nation, one idea, one group, one person cannot be more right or moral than another. Yours is a hideous philosophy of creeping death, where good cannot be attained because metaphysically good does not exist. Progress, success, and happiness are unreal and unattainable because value-judgements are null and void. Man is doomed to frustration and despair and is a helpless plaything of forces beyond his control since he does not have the power of choice. MadRat, you are a metaphysical parasite... living off the fruits of a valid philosophy, sucking its blood, while advocating a reversal that would drive man down into a stagnating hell on earth. You're a moral coward... abdicating a human responsibility to make value-judgements and use reason to decifer reality and move man forward. And most of all, you live in fear... a true, blinding fear of dealing with man's nature and the nature of reality, a fear that you cannot live up to a man's rational responsibility to THINK... gripped by mental paralysis, it's so much easier to mooch off the leaps and gains of mankind's men of action. You've check out, dropped off, and in a fit of shame you try and drag everyone else into your soulless black-hole.

ok where to begin? This is full of faulty premisses. If there is no good or evil and you are unable to make value judgements one can conclude that you do not believe in god. Since morales are largely thought to be instilled through religion. (although i wont argue that its the only way to get morales since i know plenty of ppl who are atheist and give mother teresa a run for her ..well not money but u get the point) If a philosophy doesn't support the idea of a god/Supreme Being(s) then its impossible to be a plaything of forces out of your control. There is no supreme being(s) to predestine whats going to happen to you. Therefore everything that happens to you is a result of your choices. Also if you dont know what happiness is then how can you know frustration?? Alright i guess i made my point. Using atheism the rest of your post is invalid. Since there is little/no mooching involved when making a decision whereas Theists rely on religious ideologies to make a moral decision.

I tip my hat at moonbeam for pointing out many shortcomings of the entrie post

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
cw: Because of your subjective view of reality, there can be no absolutes, no truth, no good or evil, nothing firm or real or stable.

M: You mean there is an absolute truth? Quick, what is it?

cw: With this outlook one nation, one idea, one group, one person cannot be more right or moral than another.

M: I think that is exactly what he said.

cw: Yours is a hideous philosophy of creeping death, where good cannot be attained because metaphysically good does not exist.

M: Why and how does the first flow from the second. I know how you think it does but you are just being emotional. I want a logical reason for this. How does hideous in your opinion become hideous in reality.

cw: Progress, success, and happiness are unreal and unattainable because value-judgements are null and void.

M: Why? How does the loss of one method of evaluation mean there are not other and perhaps better means you have not discovered?

cw: Man is doomed to frustration and despair and is a helpless plaything of forces beyond his control since he does not have the power of choice.

M: Hehe, well if he is right than this is and was always true even all the time you believed it wasn't. So if you are living in a delusion with everything actually only the illusion of choice how do you know the loss of that illusion will create frustration and despair?

cw: Perhaps there are other illusions or turths that prevent that. MadRat, you are a metaphysical parasite... living off the fruits of a valid philosophy, sucking its blood, while advocating a reversal that would drive man down into a stagnating hell on earth.

M: He doesn't sound that bad off to me. In fact he seems as elated in his point of view as you, and somewhat more relaxed.

cw: You're a moral coward... abdicating a human responsibility to make value-judgements and use reason to decifer reality and move man forward. And most of all, you live in fear... a true, blinding fear of dealing with man's nature and the nature of reality, a fear that you cannot live up to a man's rational responsibility to THINK... gripped by mental paralysis, it's so much easier to mooch off the leaps and gains of mankind's men of action. You've check out, dropped off, and in a fit of shame you try and drag everyone else into your soulless black-hole.

M: Well clearly you are afraid to think and feel as he since you're so sure it leads into a soulless black hole, hehe.

The think about your way of thinking is that you need to be right. To know the truth you have to be willing to go wherever the truth leads. And you sure don't want to go where he is.

But he must inevitably be right if you can't define for me that absolute truth you spoke of.

In shore, I think you are expressing one leg of a three legged chair as I alluded to above. Truth is a duality that resolves in understanding. He is right and you are right and then there is the how that's true.

What I have identified in this topic are fundamental ideals that have moved man forward, built this nation, and offers a promise of a better tomorrow (because in my framework, "better" is a concept with meaning). What you have brought into this discussion is the opposite evil, embraced -consciously or not- by the far-Left... a putrid stew of relativism and subjectivism, so as to invalidate the very idea of one thing being "better" than another. Thanks for making my point so clearly.

[/quote]

 

[cwjerome]

Moonbeam: You are waiting for absolute truth? Heh... aren't we all. Well, here's what you can do: open your eyes. Your life is an absolute, your glass of coffee is an absolute, and that little stain on your rug is an absolute. Reality is an absolute. You see it yet?

Yes our perceptions and knowledge of existence can change, but this does not negate the absolutism of reality. All we can do is use reason and logic, based on best possible evidence, to create the axioms and inductive premises that will help us undestand this and live accordingly. The closer we live in congruence with reality, the better off we'll be. Therefore and man's life is the standard of value by which we must gauge our ideas and actions. My previous posts talk about a proper mentality that recognizes this and creates an environment that leads to notions, concepts, and principles that bring man up from the mud.

Of course when you don't accept this -like you don't- then anything goes... reality is a sloppy, subjective gray where right and wrong and good and bad are just imaginary. This makes for good fun, when you can look into your prism, meditate by the nearest vortex, or check your magic 8-Ball. I will say this though Moonbeam... you are very consistant. Whereas most Leftist-Lib types will generally accept universals (absolutes) like Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, etc, while furthering ideas that are contridictory (which is fruitless and psychologically damaging), YOU further such ideas while acknowledging universals don't exist. As Dan Rather might say, that takes some "courage." It's too bad courage isn't synonymous with "correct."

Let me put it in simple terms: A philosophy that cannot distinguish "good" (ie. make value-judgements) is anti-man and anti-life, because man cannot be regarded as good and that which supports and promotes human life cannot be regarded as good. And conversely, that which damages and destroys man's life cannot be regarded as "bad." Although your words have a fuzzy Zen-like quality to them, it's a grossly sick doctrine of nihilism.

Winston and Chrisms: I find it odd that you'd think what I'm talking about is meaningless. I sincerely think this is rooted in ignorance... more than likely you cannot understand my point because you have never attempted to analyze and integrate a coherent worldview along with a lack of appreciation for philosophy. When you discover that all ideas stem from a complex but essential understanding of man and reality, you will be able to reach farther back and learn where and why ideas are born, and the monumental consequences of those ideas in action.

It's one thing to post a link and give a 1 paragraph commentary on a concrete issue, but you're going to have to realize that such an action is already 10 steps up the ladder. ALL issues and topics are derived from the basic branches of philosophy, most importanly: Metaphysics (what is reality), Epistemology (how man acquires knowledge) and Ethics. Those are the first rung of the ladder, and once again it's Moonbeam who recognizes this. While he differs with my outlook, he does not disparage the topic... it's importance is extremely relevant.

Arsbanned: I think my clarification cleared that up for you. Although I'm sure we'd disagree on more things we'd agree on, I really respect that you'd "repeal" your first characterization. Too bad MiketheIdiot isn't as smart.

 

[MadRat]

And the Golden Rule fits in what part of your babble, cw?

Please tell me you're using an autogenerator for this shameless lack of argument.

 

[drewshin]

The passed gas of Western Civilization blow from the United States of America. Our unique and great position in this world is a godsend, and with the proper recognition of who we are and what we believe, ours is a legacy that will continue for years to come, with proper ventilation.

I believe there's a fundamental aspect to this that cannot be denied. Its importance is paramount, and its power is monumental. It's built from our experience and embedded in our national psyche. It's the underlying factor in who we've become and what we've accomplished. It is our character... more specifically, our implicit view of man and the universe, our pre-conceptual appraisal of reality, our subconscious view of human life.

of course, this is the same national psyche that thought of black people as less than human for over 200 hundred years, wouldn't allow them to share the same water fountains, and treated pretty much every other non-european person like crap.

Although not always (consciously) grasped, this general outlook that guides our thoughts, actions, and perspectives, is the engine that allows for miracles. This metaphysical slum of our being is quite simple, and the consequences and [sic] corolaries are profound: Generally speaking, the foundation to the American attitude rests on a negative, hopeful, and pessimistic acceptance of man and existence. Follow or die, this is the true "American Way".

This emotional atmosphere breeds the dominant values that breaks human life and societies crumble. We have thrived. In essence, this subconcious attitude has made for a proper low self-esteem: and a low self-esteem is the starting point for bullying. We must never lose our malevolent evaluation of man and his role in the universe, and see enemies everywhere even when there are friends.



can i give you a hand towel and some lotion once you've finished?
america is great in so many many ways, but only because so many people have died and struggled to fight through all the bullsh*t created by the people in power to keep them down.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The winds of Western Civilization blow from the United States of America. Our unique and great position in this world is a godsend, and with the proper recognition of who we are and what we believe, ours is a legacy that will continue for years to come.

I believe there's a fundamental aspect to this that cannot be denied. Its importance is paramount, and its power is monumental. It's built from our experience and embedded in our national psyche. It's the underlying factor in who we've become and what we've accomplished. It is our character... more specifically, our implicit view of man and the universe, our pre-conceptual appraisal of reality, our subconscious view of human life.

Although not always (consciously) grasped, this general outlook that guides our thoughts, actions, and perspectives, is the engine that allows for miracles. This metaphysical sum of our being is quite simple, and the consequences and corolaries are profound: Generally speaking, the foundation to the American attitude rests on a positive, hopeful, and optimistic acceptance of man and existence. This is the true "American Way."

This emotional atmosphere breeds the dominant values that makes human life and society thrive. We have thrived. In essence, this subconcious attitude has made for a proper self-esteem: and a healthy self-esteem is the starting point for success. We must never lose our benevolent evaluation of man and his role in the universe.

All shot to Hell by the Christian Republicans hellbent on decimation of the elderly, poor and discrimination against Gays.

I WISH they would decimate the elderly, but they don't have the balls. 🙂

Jason

So said he, who one day will join the rank of the elderly himself :disgust:

Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The winds of Western Civilization blow from the United States of America. Our unique and great position in this world is a godsend, and with the proper recognition of who we are and what we believe, ours is a legacy that will continue for years to come.

I believe there's a fundamental aspect to this that cannot be denied. Its importance is paramount, and its power is monumental. It's built from our experience and embedded in our national psyche. It's the underlying factor in who we've become and what we've accomplished. It is our character... more specifically, our implicit view of man and the universe, our pre-conceptual appraisal of reality, our subconscious view of human life.

Although not always (consciously) grasped, this general outlook that guides our thoughts, actions, and perspectives, is the engine that allows for miracles. This metaphysical sum of our being is quite simple, and the consequences and corolaries are profound: Generally speaking, the foundation to the American attitude rests on a positive, hopeful, and optimistic acceptance of man and existence. This is the true "American Way."

This emotional atmosphere breeds the dominant values that makes human life and society thrive. We have thrived. In essence, this subconcious attitude has made for a proper self-esteem: and a healthy self-esteem is the starting point for success. We must never lose our benevolent evaluation of man and his role in the universe.

All shot to Hell by the Christian Republicans hellbent on decimation of the elderly, poor and discrimination against Gays.

I WISH they would decimate the elderly, but they don't have the balls. 🙂

Jason

So said he, who one day will join the rank of the elderly himself :disgust:

Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Good, glad you got it all planned out like that. So you'll have to tell us all how you do that trick. . .you know. . .telling the future. Life can't possibly throw you a curve ball because you oviously already know everything that's gonna happen! I hope everything does work out for you like you planned. But it doesn't for everybody. God, if only you had been around when 9/11 happened the whole thing could have been prevented!

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Since when did America become supreme? The last supreme race didn't fare too well.

Where did it say America is supreme? And since when is American a race? The race we run on this planet is the human race.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

It must be either greed/materialism, apathy, sloth, or stupidity because those things pretty much seem to sum up how the rest of the world sees us.

[EDIT] Sorry, I left out megalomania and arrogance.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The winds of Western Civilization blow from the United States of America. Our unique and great position in this world is a godsend, and with the proper recognition of who we are and what we believe, ours is a legacy that will continue for years to come.

I believe there's a fundamental aspect to this that cannot be denied. Its importance is paramount, and its power is monumental. It's built from our experience and embedded in our national psyche. It's the underlying factor in who we've become and what we've accomplished. It is our character... more specifically, our implicit view of man and the universe, our pre-conceptual appraisal of reality, our subconscious view of human life.

Although not always (consciously) grasped, this general outlook that guides our thoughts, actions, and perspectives, is the engine that allows for miracles. This metaphysical sum of our being is quite simple, and the consequences and corolaries are profound: Generally speaking, the foundation to the American attitude rests on a positive, hopeful, and optimistic acceptance of man and existence. This is the true "American Way."

This emotional atmosphere breeds the dominant values that makes human life and society thrive. We have thrived. In essence, this subconcious attitude has made for a proper self-esteem: and a healthy self-esteem is the starting point for success. We must never lose our benevolent evaluation of man and his role in the universe.

All shot to Hell by the Christian Republicans hellbent on decimation of the elderly, poor and discrimination against Gays.

I WISH they would decimate the elderly, but they don't have the balls. 🙂

Jason

So said he, who one day will join the rank of the elderly himself :disgust:

Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Good, glad you got it all planned out like that. So you'll have to tell us all how you do that trick. . .you know. . .telling the future. Life can't possibly throw you a curve ball because you oviously already know everything that's gonna happen! I hope everything does work out for you like you planned. But it doesn't for everybody. God, if only you had been around when 9/11 happened the whole thing could have been prevented!

Funny, I don't *remember* claiming omniscience. Surely, the proverbial sh1t can happen, and I acknowledge that completely. You obviously aren't capable of understanding that someone can actually pay attention to their life and their state of affairs and have a meaningful impact without being a fortune teller.

Jason

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Your attitude toward the elderly is one of the reasons this nation is in the sorry shape it's in today. Any nation that disrespects its elders as you do is bound for trouble. The elderly aren't a burden. They are a resource. You should try listening to them sometime. You might learn something.

Or, in your case, maybe not.

I hope I'm still around when all of your perfect plans come face to face with this imperfect world. I would truly like to be there to see your reaction when reality introduces itself into your well laid plans. You are apparently either too young or too ignorant -- or maybe both -- to realize that everyone who came before you made everything you have possible. Your hatred of the elderly and attempts to foment generational warfare say all anyone needs to know about you.

When you do get old, if you do get old, I hope you have to deal with people just like yourself. That would be poetic justice, IMO.

But maybe you'll get lucky and never have the chance. You never know. All of your saving and planning could be a waste of time if you check out before retirement. 😉

Another lesson you apparently haven't learned yet. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

I always considered Social Security as exactly what I was told it should be all through my working life. One leg in a three legged stool. And that's what it is in my case.

BTW, if your Republican "leaders" would stop creating record budget deficits every time they're in power the Social Security surplus would be large enough to fully fund the system ad infinitum.

Get this straight you louzy little piker, no worker who has been forced to pay FICA taxes their entire life is irresponsible. The irresponsible parties are the ideologues whose goal has been to destroy Social Security since its inception. The "leaders" who created the deficits that Social Security funds were used to finance. And those people, yourself included, who are foolish enough to buy into this scheme to defraud workers out of a benefit they were forced to fund and therefore believed they could depend on in their retirement.

My generation didn't create Social Security. But we paid our share. Since 1983, the largest share of FICA taxes since the program's inception. Now people like you have the nerve to suggest retirees are collecting some kind of welfare.

I say thanks everyday that I was able to retire before you people succeeded in destroying Social Security and robbing me of the benefit I worked and paid for all my life.

Now do what I did for almost fifty years. Get your a$$ to work and STFU.

And be sure to keep those cards and letters coming. 😉

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

It must be either greed/materialism, apathy, sloth, or stupidity because those things pretty much seem to sum up how the rest of the world sees us.

[EDIT] Sorry, I left out megalomania and arrogance.

It actually begins with *Liberty*. The freedom to own your own life, the product of your own effort. There is certainly some SELF INTEREST in there, too, which includes the desire to better oneself, improve one's own station in life and provide for the people and causes one cares about.

Of course, to someone like *you*, anything someone does for himself or those he cares for is just too selfish and nasty to be tasteful, I'm sure. Must be nice to be snug in your little Platonist world, safe from such concepts as human nature or even nature itself.

Jason

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Your attitude toward the elderly is one of the reasons this nation is in the sorry shape
it's in today.

Any nation that disrespects its elders as you do is bound for trouble.

The elderly aren't a burden.

They are a resource.

You should try listening to them sometime. You might learn something.

Or, in your case, maybe not.

I hope I'm still around when all of your perfect plans come face to face with this imperfect world. I would truly like to be there to see your reaction when reality introduces itself into your well laid plans. You are apparently either too young or too ignorant -- or maybe both -- to realize that everyone who came before you made everything you have possible. Your hatred of the elderly and attempts to foment generational warfare say all anyone needs to know about you.

When you do get old, if you do get old, I hope you have to deal with people just like yourself. That would be poetic justice, IMO.

Excellent post Sir :thumbsup:

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

It must be either greed/materialism, apathy, sloth, or stupidity because those things pretty much seem to sum up how the rest of the world sees us.

[EDIT] Sorry, I left out megalomania and arrogance.

It actually begins with *Liberty*. The freedom to own your own life, the product of your own effort. There is certainly some SELF INTEREST in there, too, which includes the desire to better oneself, improve one's own station in life and provide for the people and causes one cares about.

Of course, to someone like *you*, anything someone does for himself or those he cares for is just too selfish and nasty to be tasteful, I'm sure. Must be nice to be snug in your little Platonist world, safe from such concepts as human nature or even nature itself.

Jason

Ok I'll ignore the little personal jab because I think you missed my point. I should have warned you to turn on your sarcasm meter before you read my reply but I was afraid it might have gotten fried by my response. Where did I say that *I* believe greed, apathy, sloth, etc. . .made America so developed and powerful? God, a joke is just not funny when you have to explain it. I was merely attempting to point out to some of our other forum readers who like to throw around terms such as "lazy fat stupid American" that we are perfectly aware that they see us in this light. So if their perceptions of us are true, then how come America is so developed and powerful? And why aren't they striving to be "fat, stupid, lazy, and arrogant" just like they accuse us of being us so they can hope to achieve what we have? The inevitable conclusion that they will be forced to draw is that their perceptions are maybe not all that accurate. But for someone like *you* I guess picking up on that little nuance is asking too much. Simply answering "Freedom" or "Liberty" would have been boring and obvious.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Your attitude toward the elderly is one of the reasons this nation is in the sorry shape it's in today. Any nation that disrespects its elders as you do is bound for trouble. The elderly aren't a burden. They are a resource. You should try listening to them sometime. You might learn something.

I have TONS of respect for elderly people: that doesn't mean they have a right to enslave younger generations. As I've said before: Pay them what they're owed, then let the system die as it should. Start from the bottom up and require training on the handling of finances and the marketplace, including heavy emphasis on retirement planning, at all levels of public education. It's never too early to start.

Or, in your case, maybe not.

I hope I'm still around when all of your perfect plans come face to face with this imperfect world. I would truly like to be there to see your reaction when reality introduces itself into your well laid plans. You are apparently either too young or too ignorant -- or maybe both -- to realize that everyone who came before you made everything you have possible. Your hatred of the elderly and attempts to foment generational warfare say all anyone needs to know about you.

I never said I had "perfect plans", did I? I am fully aware that plans go awry and sh1t happens. Just look at the sorry state of SS today and you can see CLEARLY that it became a monster that no one could have foreseen or intended. It's time to let that monster die.

As to "generational warfare", the elderly declared war on the young before we were even born. Social Security, Welfare, enormous Social Spending programs that you initiated to run for *generations*, to be paid for by your children and grandchildren with no consent, no discussion, no choice at all.

Further, the skyrocketing cost of HOUSING in many places, noteably California, is largely thanks to the ELDERLY who lobby against *any* new construction, growth or change, directly leading to a shortage of housing and the artificial inflation of those housing prices to levels that the young cannot afford. The Elderly have effectively given the bird to the young and said clearly: "Hey, we got ours, so fvck all of you!"

I'll say this for you: You're very consistent in your attempts to JUSTIFY why it's OK for the elderly to hold a leash around the necks of the young.

When you do get old, if you do get old, I hope you have to deal with people just like yourself. That would be poetic justice, IMO.

Oh I hope so too! At least I would be dealing with HONEST people who don't try to justify the enslavement of some men to others.

But maybe you'll get lucky and never have the chance. You never know. All of your saving and planning could be a waste of time if you check out before retirement. 😉

Another lesson you apparently haven't learned yet. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

Actually I'm very highly aware of that and point it out constantly to people such as yourself who are willing to trade Liberty for (a false promise of) security. There is no such thing as a guarantee of safety, and those who seek it can be clearly said to have a total failure to understand *nature*.

I always considered Social Security as exactly what I was told it should be all through my working life. One leg in a three legged stool. And that's what it is in my case.

BTW, if your Republican "leaders" would stop creating record budget deficits every time they're in power the Social Security surplus would be large enough to fully fund the system ad infinitum.

If indeed you only think of it as one leg and have planned accordingly, then my hat's off to you. A significant number of geezers have instead thought of it as their ENTIRE retirement plan, and for those I offer no sympathy at all. They have no one to blame but themselves for their resultant poverty.

As for the R's (who, incidentally, are NOT my party), yes, they SHOULD stop spending the way they do. In fact if I were to point out ONE failing of the Founding Fathers, it's that they didn't EXPLICITLY outlaw deficit spending for all but wartime activities. History is clear enough that Democrats and Republicans alike LOVE to spend, spend, spend, regardless of consequences or means. Don't pretend like there is a difference between the two parties; there isn't.

Get this straight you louzy little piker, no worker who has been forced to pay FICA taxes their entire life is irresponsible. The irresponsible parties are the ideologues whose goal has been to destroy Social Security since its inception. The "leaders" who created the deficits that Social Security funds were used to finance. And those people, yourself included, who are foolish enough to buy into this scheme to defraud workers out of a benefit they were forced to fund and therefore believed they could depend on in their retirement.

Actually a good many of them ARE irresponsible, and you can discern them easily: They're the ones who cry out that without their SS they CAN'T make their bills, because they didn't even bother to THINK about retirement in a realistic way. No one, sadly, has been out to "destroy SS since it's inception" 70+ years ago. Fortunately if nothing is done to fix the problems inherent in SS it will die of its own momentum, and I look forward to that day.

Additionally, no one--NO ONE--has even *mentioned* the possibility of "defrauding workers out of a benefit they were forced to fun". The ONLY thing we've heard so far is the idea that workers be given a CHOICE in how to invest THEIR OWN MONEY. No one has even SUGGESTED telling you how to invest yours or taking your choice away. Choice was taken away when Social Security was STARTED, as you've so many times now pointed out. Remember you were FORCED to pay FICA, you didn't CHOOSE to pay it, just like the rest of us. Only somewhere along the way you became convinced that others have a RIGHT to force you to spend your own earnings in THEIR way rather than your own. What a sad state of mind you have.

My generation didn't create Social Security. But we paid our share. Since 1983, the largest share of FICA taxes since the program's inception. Now people like you have the nerve to suggest retirees are collecting some kind of welfare.

I say thanks everyday that I was able to retire before you people succeeded in destroying Social Security and robbing me of the benefit I worked and paid for all my life.

Now do what I did for almost fifty years. Get your a$$ to work and STFU.

If your generation didn't create it, then why aren't you as outraged as the rest of us that you are FORCED to pay into a system you never chose, never voted for, never were even ASKED about? I haven't suggested retirees are collecting welfare, I've suggested--and rightly so--that retirees collect more than they have paid in. That in itself is not a bad thing when you consider that you SHOULD have been getting paid interest on that money. The bad thing is that with the longer ages of retired folks and the better health and larger percentage of them, there are FEWER people actually working to pay all that money back.

Again, in spite of your pitiful cries to the contrary, no one has suggested robbing you of a damned thing. If you're over 55, no changes have been suggested. If you're UNDER 55, the only publically announced changes are the inclusion of the OPTION to invest some of your own money into the stock market rather than the SS system. Tell me, how does the inclusion of CHOICE for those who fund the system in the first place constitute robbery?

As per your usual standards, your argument consists of baseless emotionalist reactionaryism.

And be sure to keep those cards and letters coming. 😉

Well of course I will, because you know I do so love these endlessly fruitless bouts of afternoon banter, you old fart 🙂

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


Yes, but when I get there I will arrive with my finances in order and my retirement properly planned so I don't have to lobby for the enslavement of a new generation to pay for my expenses. If all the old geezers were actually as *RESPONSIBLE* as they complain about others not being, they wouldn't give a damn about Social Security.

Jason

Your attitude toward the elderly is one of the reasons this nation is in the sorry shape
it's in today.

Any nation that disrespects its elders as you do is bound for trouble.

The elderly aren't a burden.

They are a resource.

You should try listening to them sometime. You might learn something.

Or, in your case, maybe not.

I hope I'm still around when all of your perfect plans come face to face with this imperfect world. I would truly like to be there to see your reaction when reality introduces itself into your well laid plans. You are apparently either too young or too ignorant -- or maybe both -- to realize that everyone who came before you made everything you have possible. Your hatred of the elderly and attempts to foment generational warfare say all anyone needs to know about you.

When you do get old, if you do get old, I hope you have to deal with people just like yourself. That would be poetic justice, IMO.

Excellent post Sir :thumbsup:

Yeah, it was pretty good, even if large portions were based on utterly flawed reasoning and rampant emotionalism. Nice intro, though 🙂

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

It must be either greed/materialism, apathy, sloth, or stupidity because those things pretty much seem to sum up how the rest of the world sees us.

[EDIT] Sorry, I left out megalomania and arrogance.

It actually begins with *Liberty*. The freedom to own your own life, the product of your own effort. There is certainly some SELF INTEREST in there, too, which includes the desire to better oneself, improve one's own station in life and provide for the people and causes one cares about.

Of course, to someone like *you*, anything someone does for himself or those he cares for is just too selfish and nasty to be tasteful, I'm sure. Must be nice to be snug in your little Platonist world, safe from such concepts as human nature or even nature itself.

Jason

Ok I'll ignore the little personal jab because I think you missed my point. I should have warned you to turn on your sarcasm meter before you read my reply but I was afraid it might have gotten fried by my response. Where did I say that *I* believe greed, apathy, sloth, etc. . .made America so developed and powerful? God, a joke is just not funny when you have to explain it. I was merely attempting to point out to some of our other forum readers who like to throw around terms such as "lazy fat stupid American" that we are perfectly aware that they see us in this light. So if their perceptions of us are true, then how come America is so developed and powerful? And why aren't they striving to be "fat, stupid, lazy, and arrogant" just like they accuse us of being us so they can hope to achieve what we have? The inevitable conclusion that they will be forced to draw is that their perceptions are maybe not all that accurate. But for someone like *you* I guess picking up on that little nuance is asking too much. Simply answering "Freedom" or "Liberty" would have been boring and obvious.

LOL, hey, after the other posts in this thread, dare tell me *you* would have been looking for a sarcastic/humorous approach 🙂 As you pointed out yourself, enough people on this forum *truly* believe that crap that it would be no surprise if you *were* serious!

In any case, you would think that those "easy" answers would be obvious, as would I, but whatever else is true, that viewpoint is the *minority*.

Jason

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

I have TONS of respect for elderly people:
Jason

OMG dude, I think you need to get into a psychiatrists office because I think you might have schyzophrenia. Aren't you the same guy who also said,

I WISH they would decimate the elderly, but they don't have the balls.

Jason

?? Or was that "Evil Jason" from a parallel dimension? Just quit man, you're just making yourself look worse.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I've said it many times: what makes America strong is it's large population coupled with being a developed country.

And what about in the beginning, when America had neither a large population nor any significant development whatsoever? What lead to America eventually becoming so populous, so developed and so powerful? While there is no simple, over-reaching answer, there *is* a very large motivator that should be obvious.

Do you know what it is?

Jason

It must be either greed/materialism, apathy, sloth, or stupidity because those things pretty much seem to sum up how the rest of the world sees us.

[EDIT] Sorry, I left out megalomania and arrogance.

It actually begins with *Liberty*. The freedom to own your own life, the product of your own effort. There is certainly some SELF INTEREST in there, too, which includes the desire to better oneself, improve one's own station in life and provide for the people and causes one cares about.

Of course, to someone like *you*, anything someone does for himself or those he cares for is just too selfish and nasty to be tasteful, I'm sure. Must be nice to be snug in your little Platonist world, safe from such concepts as human nature or even nature itself.

Jason

Ok I'll ignore the little personal jab because I think you missed my point. I should have warned you to turn on your sarcasm meter before you read my reply but I was afraid it might have gotten fried by my response. Where did I say that *I* believe greed, apathy, sloth, etc. . .made America so developed and powerful? God, a joke is just not funny when you have to explain it. I was merely attempting to point out to some of our other forum readers who like to throw around terms such as "lazy fat stupid American" that we are perfectly aware that they see us in this light. So if their perceptions of us are true, then how come America is so developed and powerful? And why aren't they striving to be "fat, stupid, lazy, and arrogant" just like they accuse us of being us so they can hope to achieve what we have? The inevitable conclusion that they will be forced to draw is that their perceptions are maybe not all that accurate. But for someone like *you* I guess picking up on that little nuance is asking too much. Simply answering "Freedom" or "Liberty" would have been boring and obvious.

LOL, hey, after the other posts in this thread, dare tell me *you* would have been looking for a sarcastic/humorous approach 🙂 As you pointed out yourself, enough people on this forum *truly* believe that crap that it would be no surprise if you *were* serious!

In any case, you would think that those "easy" answers would be obvious, as would I, but whatever else is true, that viewpoint is the *minority*.

Jason

🙂 Just chalk it up to another "lets argue about something we agree on" forum discussion. LOL.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Stumps
typical self serving American bullsh*t, I'm surprised it didn't come straight from the mouth of GWB himself

Bush is a CONSERVATIVE, he doesn't believe in Self-Esteem, Self-valuation or anything else that might be considered a foundation to Individualism.

Jason

Stopped reading and started laughing right there...

As for the OP, it doesn't say anything though excerpts might make a decent motivational calendar.

 

[cwjerome]

"As for the OP, it doesn't say anything though excerpts might make a decent motivational calendar. "




This is deeper than Iraq = Bad or whatever you're used to. Obviously, this subject matter isn't for you. A B C ya.

 

[cwjerome]

Anyways...

An important manifestation of this "Secret Weapon" is growth rates. Although never down in the dumps in the US, there has been a minor resurgence in the "family." This unique aspect of America and our national life makes the US stand out in all kinds of demographic and cultural categories. This is a consequence of our underlying philosophic outlook, and it's a reason America will remain great and remain strong.

All across the industrialized world birthrates are falling as people marry later (if at all) and have fewer kids. Canada is advertising in Mexico for immigrants because they need more people. Many European nations have virtually zero growth rate, and this is only due to the fact of immigration also. Russia stands to lose almost 20% of it's population over the next 25 years. China is facing a demographic nightmare because of the 1-child policy and its lopsided male population that's going to make things in that country quite "interesting" for many years to come.

America bucks this trend because of our positive and optimistic view of man and existence. We see reality as knowable and man as heroic. We see a world that can be understood and molded to meet our needs. We see people as inherently good and capable... we have hope and a sense of life that says we can succeed and life is worth living. We EXPECT to make things better, because we know we can.

It's this attitude that enables a people to thrive and see a better future. It's this attitude that creates a class of people that see value in certain things: family, children, and morality... morality, because there is a sense of right and wrong, good and bad, goal-directed action that can achieve results and character that counts. In other words, a world for their children to prosper in. These are generally conservative values, but the movement isn't a highly political one. It's fundamentally a spiritual (for lack of a better word) movement where people are choosing to get more fulfillment and rewards from big families. They somewhat reject the materialistic ambitions and hyperindividualism. They are saying money will not be their god.

When a culture accepts certain philosophic premises that are much different from America's, cynical, negative, and pessimistic societies emerge. People see the universe as fickle and chaotic, and people as degenerate and unworthy. They exhibit strange tendencies and among these are a warped vision of life and the future. This is a large part of why so many major countries have unsustainable growth rates. Traditional, decent values give way to a dystopia mentality... so why bother having kids and cultivating a climate of security and positive outlooks when the world is cruel and people cursed?

To me, this is just one indication of how the American psyche has allowed for our rise, and promises to keep us on a path that must be taken. This example is another result of our "secret weapon." An unbreakable philosophy that shines the light to a better tomorrow.