Americans in Canada perfer US healthcare

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
My man??? Don't blame me, I sure as hell didn't vote for GWB. I'm WAY smarter then that.

Why is the goverment so out of control anyway? I think it's because most people in this country have it so damn good that they don't care what the politicians do. If goverment wast and corruption was seen as something that was reducing the quality of their health care, then what do you think would happen to corrupt politiicans?

Why the government is so bad our out of control is irrelevant to this discussion. It is the way it is, and I have accepted that, while you obviously havent. You may consider yourself smart, just as I consider myself smart, but lets face it, politicians are voted into office by a bunch of idiots that base their votes on 30sec sound bytes on the evening news, and political ads shown during American Idol. Politicians dont have the time or resources to market themselves to intelligent people, so they go after the easy votes. Government waste eats away at every part of our government, and the people dont care. What makes you think healthcare will be any different? Maybe you are just more of a patriot than I am, since you still cling to the ideal that the people will eventuall rise up and take their government back, and put true leaders in office. Me...I've given up, and admit defeat. The electorate that you have so little faith in for voting in GWB twice, is the electorate that will be running your healthcare. So you continue on and have faith in a government elected by idiots, and I'll cling to the last bastions of society not run by our inept government.

LOL, I'm not "clinging" to anything. I'm saying the American people need a reason/incentive to pay enough attention to politics/politicians to stop the corruption. You on the other hand think you can handle everything all by yourself. If you don't care about politics then what are you doing here on a political forum anyway? Methinks thou dost protest too much.

That is one of the problems with our technology in this "free" society, people suffer from the delusion that they don't need anybody else and that is just flat wrong. If people's attiudes/perceptions don't change the system will crash. It won't be a revolution in the sense that the people rise up and take control back from the goverment. It will be revolution because they have to do something different just to survive. I'll bet that when the crash comes (and it will) you will be crying as loud for goverment help as anyone, assuming the crash comes in your lifetime.

As Abe Lincoln said "You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." That's just the way it works when people get to vote and we all have to live with it. All we can do is work for better choices.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
My man??? Don't blame me, I sure as hell didn't vote for GWB. I'm WAY smarter then that.

Why is the goverment so out of control anyway? I think it's because most people in this country have it so damn good that they don't care what the politicians do. If goverment wast and corruption was seen as something that was reducing the quality of their health care, then what do you think would happen to corrupt politiicans?

Why the government is so bad our out of control is irrelevant to this discussion. It is the way it is, and I have accepted that, while you obviously havent. You may consider yourself smart, just as I consider myself smart, but lets face it, politicians are voted into office by a bunch of idiots that base their votes on 30sec sound bytes on the evening news, and political ads shown during American Idol. Politicians dont have the time or resources to market themselves to intelligent people, so they go after the easy votes. Government waste eats away at every part of our government, and the people dont care. What makes you think healthcare will be any different? Maybe you are just more of a patriot than I am, since you still cling to the ideal that the people will eventuall rise up and take their government back, and put true leaders in office. Me...I've given up, and admit defeat. The electorate that you have so little faith in for voting in GWB twice, is the electorate that will be running your healthcare. So you continue on and have faith in a government elected by idiots, and I'll cling to the last bastions of society not run by our inept government.

Let me address two things. First, the weird idea you seem to have that accessibility is some kind of after-thought that may or may not be addressed based on a person's political leanings. What you don't seem to understand is that accessibility to society's benefits, be it wealth, education, healthcare etc is one of the most important and primary indicators of how well off poeple are. This may come as a surprise to you, but rich people can be found all over the world, and they all live well off. I have a childhood friend that lives in a country 4 times poorer than America and when I last saw him 2 years ago, he was substantially better off than myself and everybody that I personally know. Any suggestion that he emigrate like my family did would be utterly laughable to him. So you have to realize, the thing that sets first world countries apart is the moderate success of the masses, not the extreme success of the few.

Keeping the above in mind, you can see why accessibility is an extremely important failure of your system. Responses such as "it works well for those that can afford it" are simply spinning and then trying to ignore the failure. Unlike ideologues, I like things like "facts" and "results" and these results speak pretty clearly (feel free to look up the studies, you can start with the W.H.O.) - universal healthcare is superior.

So what about your assumption that the US government can't run healthcare? Well, as Pink Floyd would say, "I got bad news for you sunshine"... you are not pretty, unique flowers. Americans love to portray themselves as some kind of species apart, but they are just like everyone else. Various flavours of universal healthcare systems have been implemented successfully in many many countries and if Americans want it, it can be done there as well.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
My man??? Don't blame me, I sure as hell didn't vote for GWB. I'm WAY smarter then that.

Why is the goverment so out of control anyway? I think it's because most people in this country have it so damn good that they don't care what the politicians do. If goverment wast and corruption was seen as something that was reducing the quality of their health care, then what do you think would happen to corrupt politiicans?

Why the government is so bad our out of control is irrelevant to this discussion. It is the way it is, and I have accepted that, while you obviously havent. You may consider yourself smart, just as I consider myself smart, but lets face it, politicians are voted into office by a bunch of idiots that base their votes on 30sec sound bytes on the evening news, and political ads shown during American Idol. Politicians dont have the time or resources to market themselves to intelligent people, so they go after the easy votes. Government waste eats away at every part of our government, and the people dont care. What makes you think healthcare will be any different? Maybe you are just more of a patriot than I am, since you still cling to the ideal that the people will eventuall rise up and take their government back, and put true leaders in office. Me...I've given up, and admit defeat. The electorate that you have so little faith in for voting in GWB twice, is the electorate that will be running your healthcare. So you continue on and have faith in a government elected by idiots, and I'll cling to the last bastions of society not run by our inept government.

Let me address two things. First, the weird idea you seem to have that accessibility is some kind of after-thought that may or may not be addressed based on a person's political leanings. What you don't seem to understand is that accessibility to society's benefits, be it wealth, education, healthcare etc is one of the most important and primary indicators of how well off poeple are. This may come as a surprise to you, but rich people can be found all over the world, and they all live well off. I have a childhood friend that lives in a country 4 times poorer than America and when I last saw him 2 years ago, he was substantially better off than myself and everybody that I personally know. Any suggestion that he emigrate like my family did would be utterly laughable to him. So you have to realize, the thing that sets first world countries apart is the moderate success of the masses, not the extreme success of the few.

Keeping the above in mind, you can see why accessibility is an extremely important failure of your system. Responses such as "it works well for those that can afford it" are simply spinning and then trying to ignore the failure. Unlike ideologues, I like things like "facts" and "results" and these results speak pretty clearly (feel free to look up the studies, you can start with the W.H.O.) - universal healthcare is superior.

So what about your assumption that the US government can't run healthcare? Well, as Pink Floyd would say, "I got bad news for you sunshine"... you are not pretty, unique flowers. Americans love to portray themselves as some kind of species apart, but they are just like everyone else. Various flavours of universal healthcare systems have been implemented successfully in many many countries and if Americans want it, it can be done there as well.

I can see you are from Canada. Let me clue you in. The population of Canada is around 36 million people. The population of the U.S. is around 300 million. The Canadian federal budget is a bit over 200 billion dollars. The U.S. federal budget is almost 3 trillion, roughly 3 times the Canadian GDP. Implementing a successful universal health care system here has a whole lot more challenges than in Canada, and a more bloated, inefficient government in charge of doing it.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
My man??? Don't blame me, I sure as hell didn't vote for GWB. I'm WAY smarter then that.

Why is the goverment so out of control anyway? I think it's because most people in this country have it so damn good that they don't care what the politicians do. If goverment wast and corruption was seen as something that was reducing the quality of their health care, then what do you think would happen to corrupt politiicans?

Why the government is so bad our out of control is irrelevant to this discussion. It is the way it is, and I have accepted that, while you obviously havent. You may consider yourself smart, just as I consider myself smart, but lets face it, politicians are voted into office by a bunch of idiots that base their votes on 30sec sound bytes on the evening news, and political ads shown during American Idol. Politicians dont have the time or resources to market themselves to intelligent people, so they go after the easy votes. Government waste eats away at every part of our government, and the people dont care. What makes you think healthcare will be any different? Maybe you are just more of a patriot than I am, since you still cling to the ideal that the people will eventuall rise up and take their government back, and put true leaders in office. Me...I've given up, and admit defeat. The electorate that you have so little faith in for voting in GWB twice, is the electorate that will be running your healthcare. So you continue on and have faith in a government elected by idiots, and I'll cling to the last bastions of society not run by our inept government.

Let me address two things. First, the weird idea you seem to have that accessibility is some kind of after-thought that may or may not be addressed based on a person's political leanings. What you don't seem to understand is that accessibility to society's benefits, be it wealth, education, healthcare etc is one of the most important and primary indicators of how well off poeple are. This may come as a surprise to you, but rich people can be found all over the world, and they all live well off. I have a childhood friend that lives in a country 4 times poorer than America and when I last saw him 2 years ago, he was substantially better off than myself and everybody that I personally know. Any suggestion that he emigrate like my family did would be utterly laughable to him. So you have to realize, the thing that sets first world countries apart is the moderate success of the masses, not the extreme success of the few.

Keeping the above in mind, you can see why accessibility is an extremely important failure of your system. Responses such as "it works well for those that can afford it" are simply spinning and then trying to ignore the failure. Unlike ideologues, I like things like "facts" and "results" and these results speak pretty clearly (feel free to look up the studies, you can start with the W.H.O.) - universal healthcare is superior.

So what about your assumption that the US government can't run healthcare? Well, as Pink Floyd would say, "I got bad news for you sunshine"... you are not pretty, unique flowers. Americans love to portray themselves as some kind of species apart, but they are just like everyone else. Various flavours of universal healthcare systems have been implemented successfully in many many countries and if Americans want it, it can be done there as well.

I can see you are from Canada. Let me clue you in. The population of Canada is around 36 million people. The population of the U.S. is around 300 million. The Canadian federal budget is a bit over 200 billion dollars. The U.S. federal budget is almost 3 trillion, roughly 3 times the Canadian GDP. Implementing a successful universal health care system here has a whole lot more challenges than in Canada, and a more bloated, inefficient government in charge of doing it.

Yes, thank you for posting irrelevant things I already know, but I already explained to you how you're not a pretty little unique flower. American opponents of universal care are opposed based on ideological grounds, and they don't care whether the plan is state (largest state is CA - same population as Canada) or national. Indeed no amount of cost, either in money or human suffering, seems to be enough to make them give up their ideology and exchange it for better results.

 

[darincm]

Every time I see these posts, I notice most people miss the point. We (Canadians) know full well that our health care system is far from perfect. What trumps all though is our willingness to bring everyone along. We pride ourselves on the fact that we try to leave no one behind.

Do we get the same level of health care that someone with money gets in the US? Probably not, but I am willing to deal with that to make sure that the guy I see begging for money when I drive home on Lakeshore Blvd can get health care too.

We can work on improving our system but I don't see how you can add altruism to a society that has little or none.

 

[vi edit]

We're the 3rd largest populated country in the world. 10x more than Canada. 5x more than England. We have arguably the largest number of illegal immigrants sucking at the teet of gratuity without paying in as any country in the world. We also have likely the most self destructive personal lifestyles of any civilized country in the world.

Put that same burden on any socialized health care system and see how well it supports itself.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
No, this can't be right. According to the liberals on this forum, the American healthcare system is by far the worst healthcare system in the world. Starving people in Africa have a better system.

:roll:

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: darincm
Every time I see these posts, I notice most people miss the point. We (Canadians) know full well that our health care system is far from perfect. What trumps all though is our willingness to bring everyone along. We pride ourselves on the fact that we try to leave no one behind.

Do we get the same level of health care that someone with money gets in the US? Probably not, but I am willing to deal with that to make sure that the guy I see begging for money when I drive home on Lakeshore Blvd can get health care too.

We can work on improving our system but I don't see how you can add altruism to a society that has little or none.

I admit the US has an access problem with healthcare, and have pointed out several times that I believe America has the best healthcare system in the world, for those that can afford it. I would like a solution that provides healthcare to everyone, while preserving the quality of care that insured people currently enjoy. This is probably impossible, though I think various ways need to be debated.

 

[darincm]

I'm not sure that you can have a two tiered system; we have been having this discussion in Canada for a while with no easy answers. I hope that there is a good, honest debate about your system during the upcoming election. If America can figure out a way to make it work it may pave the road for better access & shorter wait times for us in Canada.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I can see you are from Canada. Let me clue you in. The population of Canada is around 36 million people. The population of the U.S. is around 300 million. The Canadian federal budget is a bit over 200 billion dollars. The U.S. federal budget is almost 3 trillion, roughly 3 times the Canadian GDP. Implementing a successful universal health care system here has a whole lot more challenges than in Canada, and a more bloated, inefficient government in charge of doing it.

The EU taken as a whole is both richer and more populous than the US, massively inefficient, and most (all?) of the major states have publicly funded heathcare. It seems to work - I've never had a problem with it and I've never had to worry about it not being there when I need it. It would work just the same in the US.

IMO the problem with this whole arguement is that there is *no way* it will ever get voted in on your side of the pond anyway, people would never accept such a large chunk of their salary going to help the poor - it goes against so much that is considered American. You are responible only for yourself, and you will be as comfortable and as rich as you make yourself, with no help from anyone.

 

[darincm]

It's ironic that a country with such a Christian majority & a Christian president does not implement a system that will benefit all (including the poorest) & not just those who can afford it. It's sad to see such a great country leave so many behind in the name of "choice" & profit.

And its only a real choice for those who can afford it & are not already sick.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: darincm
It's ironic that a country with such a Christian majority & a Christian president does not implement a system that will benefit all (including the poorest) & not just those who can afford it. It's sad to see such a great country leave so many behind in the name of "choice" & profit.

And its only a real choice for those who can afford it & are not already sick.

Socialism is the enemy of God! <<<<< pretty much the problem here.