Americans Being Driven Out of Careers in Science and Engineering?

[Zorba]

Okay, this is my personal experience. I graduated with a MS in Mechanical Engineering last year. I received 11 job offers last year ranging from 57-70K/year +bonuses, all over the country (Almost all aerospace, no oil companies). I was getting so many hits I started turning down interviews left and right. Then this year I was given a 10% performance raise. Some of my coworkers have taken jobs elsewhere and they got multiple offers in a matter of weeks with huge (~20%) bumps in pay. I don't think the engineering field is hurting.

If an engineer can't find a job right now it is completely their fault.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: Zorba
Okay, this is my personal experience. I graduated with a MS in Mechanical Engineering last year. I received 11 job offers last year ranging from 57-70K/year +bonuses, all over the country (Almost all aerospace, no oil companies). I was getting so many hits I started turning down interviews left and right. Then this year I was given a 10% performance raise. Some of my coworkers have taken jobs elsewhere and they got multiple offers in a matter of weeks with huge (~20%) bumps in pay. I don't think the engineering field is hurting.

If an engineer can't find a job right now it is completely their fault.

Yeah, I wasn't THAT popular since my GPA wasn't great, but I still had to turn down several interviews. I was scared shitless I wasn't gonna get a job based on all the crap you get about the economy and my bad GPA so I went and applied EVERYWHERE hoping to get a few hits, but instead I was just flooded with hits . If you have an engineering degree and a GPA greater then 2.5 I would say you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Zorba
Okay, this is my personal experience. I graduated with a MS in Mechanical Engineering last year. I received 11 job offers last year ranging from 57-70K/year +bonuses, all over the country (Almost all aerospace, no oil companies). I was getting so many hits I started turning down interviews left and right. Then this year I was given a 10% performance raise. Some of my coworkers have taken jobs elsewhere and they got multiple offers in a matter of weeks with huge (~20%) bumps in pay. I don't think the engineering field is hurting.

If an engineer can't find a job right now it is completely their fault.

Yeah, I wasn't THAT popular since my GPA wasn't great, but I still had to turn down several interviews. I was scared shitless I wasn't gonna get a job based on all the crap you get about the economy and my bad GPA so I went and applied EVERYWHERE hoping to get a few hits, but instead I was just flooded with hits . If you have an engineering GPA and a GPA greater then 2.5 I would say you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

My wife had a 3.0 in Aerospace & Mechanical and she never had a problem getting hits and offers either. I don't know anyone from school that tried to find a job that didn't get a good one.

 

[piasabird]

Why would anyone in the USA want a math or science degree if everyone in big business can get all the Job Stealing H1b visas they ask for from the government? There are plenty of smart people in the USA. Remember this next time you see a story about how eduction standards are lower in the USA. That is because your stupid idiots in congress lets companies hire people on H1b visas. The government is the problem. The US Government should say hell no. Just make big business offer more grants and scholarships to Americans.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

You do realize these are starting wages right? After 5 years they should be seeing 70-80 and after 10 much more. That said nobody gets "rich" sitting at a desk.

Intel
Nvidia
AMD

All founded by engineers.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Perhaps the situation isn't so bad in engineering, at least based on the anecdotal posts here.

I was kind of hoping to hear people's thoughts on the Paul Craig Roberts's op-eds. Did anyone read them?

Everywhere we hear the same droning lie from business interests that there are not enough American engineers and scientists.

That is from the first link. He provides nothing but anecdotal evidence for this. So his next comment

Many responses come from recent university graduates?such as the one who "graduated nearly at the top of my class in 2002" with degrees in both electrical and computer engineering and who "hasn?t been able to find a job."

seems to be refuted by the anecdotal evidence us Engineers who are actually in the field are seeing. By the way - maybe he should send that guy's information to me. We have been trying to hire more EE/ME/CE engineers for a long time and find most recent grads lacking in critical thinking skills needed for our line of work. They also seem to think they are worth more than they really are. A degree means you made it through school and are "smart" but it doesn't mean you are a good engineer. You have to prove you are a good engineer before you are really worth something to an employer.

So IMO, his opinions are a bit skewed because they are agenda(whining) driven.

Hm, where do you work? I'll keep you in mind when I graduate

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

I've thought the same lately.

What area does Macroeconomics fall in? In my latter years of EE work I have fallen in love with economics (specifically macro) and am seriously considering pursuing a masters in it. But only if the benefit would outweigh the cost. Pay for the extra education, and have me set making more money, too. Would Macro or Micro be better to pursue? What do you do with such a degree? I don't quite see how all the theory behind Macro could be applicable to a job, not in the same way EE is. It sure is fun to me, but I don't know how someone could employ me for it.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Zorba

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Zorba
Okay, this is my personal experience. I graduated with a MS in Mechanical Engineering last year. I received 11 job offers last year ranging from 57-70K/year +bonuses, all over the country (Almost all aerospace, no oil companies). I was getting so many hits I started turning down interviews left and right. Then this year I was given a 10% performance raise. Some of my coworkers have taken jobs elsewhere and they got multiple offers in a matter of weeks with huge (~20%) bumps in pay. I don't think the engineering field is hurting.

If an engineer can't find a job right now it is completely their fault.

Yeah, I wasn't THAT popular since my GPA wasn't great, but I still had to turn down several interviews. I was scared shitless I wasn't gonna get a job based on all the crap you get about the economy and my bad GPA so I went and applied EVERYWHERE hoping to get a few hits, but instead I was just flooded with hits . If you have an engineering GPA and a GPA greater then 2.5 I would say you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

My wife had a 3.0 in Aerospace & Mechanical and she never had a problem getting hits and offers either. I don't know anyone from school that tried to find a job that didn't get a good one.

How do you get random hits? Resume up on CareerBuilder/Monster 24/7? Blog/webpage?

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

I've thought the same lately.

What area does Macroeconomics fall in? In my latter years of EE work I have fallen in love with economics (specifically macro) and am seriously considering pursuing a masters in it. But only if the benefit would outweigh the cost. Pay for the extra education, and have me set making more money, too. Would Macro or Micro be better to pursue? What do you do with such a degree? I don't quite see how all the theory behind Macro could be applicable to a job, not in the same way EE is. It sure is fun to me, but I don't know how someone could employ me for it.

could just get an MBA maybe, thats what my dad has (master in nuclear engineering + MBA) and it seems to work good for him..

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Anyone that has a graduate degree in engineering can tell you that there is a shortage of Americans with advanced degrees. I think one of the issues is that in the US, you have much better options than engineering. In other countries, engineering is the top option.

Also, IT is neither engineering nor a science. One of those articles seems to think that it is engineering.

This. Everyone I know that graduating with an engineering degree in the last few years has been begged to take jobs and they are all making $50k+ after a year.

Agreed. Maybe the reason we have fewer Americans in careers in science and engineering is that fewer Americans are even TRYING to get into those fields.

This is a case where the stats lie through their teeth. More foreigners and fewer Americans in a field does not mean we're being "driven out", it implies NOTHING about the circumstances of the demographic change. And having recently been through college, I'd say it's because fewer Americans are interested in science and engineering and more Americans want to major in beer with a minor in booty.

I have seen very little evidence that science and engineering are no longer good career choices for Americans. Quite the opposite in fact. It's just a question of whether anybody has the intellectual drive to pursue them.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

That sounds like the kind of faulty logic I'd expect from all the non-scientist non-engineer types running around Sure, if you expect your BS in engineering to get you rich with no additional effort, you're going to be disappointed. But for career paths, there are plenty for engineers who work at it. And despite their quick dismissal of having a good, stable, middle class job, I think that's a valid goal for a lot of people...and if that's what you're after, there are few things that are a better use of your time in school than learning engineering or (some) science.

 

[Legend]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

Those are starting salaries. Most cap around $90k.

Even if you don't make any strides to improve yourself/career, that's plenty of money to become rich. If you max 401k and IRA, you could retire a multi-millionaire at about 50-55.

If you mean rich as in you can throw money at everything as soon as you graduate, then no, engineering won't make you rich.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Legend

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

Those are starting salaries. Most cap around $90k.

Even if you don't make any strides to improve yourself/career, that's plenty of money to become rich. If you max 401k and IRA, you could retire a multi-millionaire at about 50-55.

If you mean rich as in you can throw money at everything as soon as you graduate, then no, engineering won't make you rich.

This never takes inflation into account.

A million by the time I'm 55 is going to be like 250,000 right now.

 

[Legend]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: Legend

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: Legend
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/1...ing_salaries/index.htm

Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.

Those are starting salaries. Most cap around $90k.

Even if you don't make any strides to improve yourself/career, that's plenty of money to become rich. If you max 401k and IRA, you could retire a multi-millionaire at about 50-55.

If you mean rich as in you can throw money at everything as soon as you graduate, then no, engineering won't make you rich.

This never takes inflation into account.

A million by the time I'm 55 is going to be like 250,000 right now.

Yes it does. The market responds to inflation.

The premise to owning stock is that a company gives you a share of its cash flow. When inflation increases, over about 5 years, stocks rise to reflect the increase of nominal cash flow. This is because when goods and services increase in price due to inflation, the nominal value of revenue increases, and therefore cash flow increases.

You're also assuming that your investments are entirely domestic, which would be extremely foolish.

 

[Legend]

I think I replied too quickly. If you maxed your tax shelters for the first 10 years of your career (age 22-32), and retired at 55, you'd have a real value of about 1.5 million. Nominal of about 4.5 million. ($20,000 investment into a portfolio with an average annualized return of 12%).

You could use all of your money after the first 10 years on a house/family.

Again, this isn't enough money to throw around, but to me this is rich.

 

[Oric]

I am a foreigner. My kids started school at the age 3, they learned how to read and write at the age of 5, they started learning a second language (English) when they were 4, they will have to compete with millions of kids to enter better high schools when they are 9 years old, even a more competitive University entrance exam when they are 17, all their life will be constant struggle to be "better" then others at their age and you wonder why the youth of the US can not compete with the best pick that come from abroad ?

 

[Colt45]

Most americans are too lazy and sedated to go into engineering. It's too nerdy. Good luck getting chicks when you're still working at quickburger when you're 40 though!

My experience in the most of the european countries I've been to, is there is a lot more students in engineering - and it seems like a lot more girls, too.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Yeah, I think it is backwards to say that "Americans are being driving out of science/engineering", more like "Americans are choosing not to go into science and engineering and the rest of the world is filling the gap"

Lazy punks. Although outsourcing and trade deficits may be the end of the world, for now if you a) are decently educated and b) willing to move and c) not a complete freaking weirdo (as many people are, hopelessly inept socially), then you'll get work. Far, far too many people are getting degrees in worthless fields and rewarded with terrible jobs and plenty of debt. Why didn't their parents or peers tell them at some point that that degree in English Lit wasn't good for anything besides pressing grande on the coffee machine? Did they really think that a C+ average with that was going to get them a desk job editing articles for Time magazine?