This is just wrong. One can easily get a job as a lab tech with a bachelors degree in virtually any scientific area. They make pretty good money, too (our lab tech makes ~$54k/year IIRC, though he's been there for a while). Most of these people wouldn't be able to handle the engineering curriculum. As the old saying goes, as the limit of your engineering GPA goes to 2.0, your major equals science. As the limit of your engineering GPA goes to zero, your major equals business.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Yeah, I know of atleast one major employer in my area that has a HUGE lab hires RAs (research assistant - basically a lab tech) at $45K right out of school. That's pretty damn nice bank in central Iowa for people with nothing but a piece of paper that says they might know something.
Most enigneering people in our area start out at around that same level right out of college. MEs might be a bit less and also CEs depending on the dept or company they work for. EEs tend to make a bit more starting out and their salary ceiling is much higher in the long run too but EE takes a bit more techincal expertise.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have actually gone/stayed at Marquette for EE instead of going to a state school for whatever it was I never got.
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
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I've always wanted to find out why Iowa seems to be the Mecca of the U.S. especially in the jobs dept.
I have some time now so I may just take a drive there and find out.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
It's not a mecca, but our unemployment has been quite low for years. Hell, the national unemployment rate has been quite low so maybe it's not as bad as you keep trying to claim.
But yes, do see what else it out there instead of just what is around your town in the boonies.
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
It's not a mecca, but our unemployment has been quite low for years. Hell, the national unemployment rate has been quite low so maybe it's not as bad as you keep trying to claim.
But yes, do see what else it out there instead of just what is around your town in the boonies.
I've been applying and phone interviewing all over the country.
What happens if businesses keep hiring people from India or China is that Americans will not try to get those degrees because they will not be hired. America has plenty of talented people. It is big business that does not care about people. I have met some IT people that are more like crazy people. IT people are so paranoid about losing their jobs than many I have seen when they move into jobs try to take over as much as they can to keep from being fired. Kind of a take over the world mania.
When I was in school they stressed teamwork, but that is something I have never seen since I started working in IT.
When I was in school they stressed teamwork, but that is something I have never seen since I started working in IT.
It's more than just Big business not caring for people.
That not caring extends to every nook and crany of the entire country now.
It is what is utimately leading to the downfall of the country.
A lot of it did in fact start with Democrats under Bill Clinton's NAFTA.
However Republicans took NAFTA along with a lot of other Pro-Business at all costs measures to whole new extremes leading to this dismal situation.
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
- 80,287
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- = BUMP!!!! = -
^ (read the date before posting something stupid) ^
Some of you may recall the day I was ranting about being fired. That was back in Feb.
In retrospect I think they did me a favor. Theres going to be about 1000 people running all over Oregon, fighting for the same hi-tech jobs, whereas I have already been employed for 5 months.
I knew we were dead back in Jan. Shortly after I got fired in Feb I realized how nice it was to be free of that place. My buddy emailed me a couple weeks ago and said they were told by management to go ahead and get their resumes ready. I didnt want to post anything about it until this was in the news and official.
They will probably never admit it publically but the main reason they closed the American plant is that their Korean employees will do better quality work for about 1/4 of the pay.
The whole time I was there all I ever heard from management is "we gotta improve our quality. We gotta get the yield up so we can stay in business." I guess they just couldnt do it.
I dont suppose it helped that most of the managers were really incompetent. Anyone who was worth a damn went someplace better about a year ago when the parent company started to get silly and unreasonable.
Little tip for folks living in Eugene:
Find new work now. And I dont just mean the Hynix people. I mean darn near anyone living there.
That plant was the largest company in Eugene and the 2nd largest employer, behind the state employees. When that company closes its doors there will be a powerful ripple effect felt in ALL areas of Eugene/Springfield. Get yourself setup somewhere now. You dont have to bail out immediately, but it will be nice to have some options open to you. We have some hi-tech jobs here in the Portland area, but not enough for 1000 people.
^ (read the date before posting something stupid) ^
Some of you may recall the day I was ranting about being fired. That was back in Feb.
In retrospect I think they did me a favor. Theres going to be about 1000 people running all over Oregon, fighting for the same hi-tech jobs, whereas I have already been employed for 5 months.
I knew we were dead back in Jan. Shortly after I got fired in Feb I realized how nice it was to be free of that place. My buddy emailed me a couple weeks ago and said they were told by management to go ahead and get their resumes ready. I didnt want to post anything about it until this was in the news and official.
They will probably never admit it publically but the main reason they closed the American plant is that their Korean employees will do better quality work for about 1/4 of the pay.
The whole time I was there all I ever heard from management is "we gotta improve our quality. We gotta get the yield up so we can stay in business." I guess they just couldnt do it.
I dont suppose it helped that most of the managers were really incompetent. Anyone who was worth a damn went someplace better about a year ago when the parent company started to get silly and unreasonable.
Little tip for folks living in Eugene:
Find new work now. And I dont just mean the Hynix people. I mean darn near anyone living there.
That plant was the largest company in Eugene and the 2nd largest employer, behind the state employees. When that company closes its doors there will be a powerful ripple effect felt in ALL areas of Eugene/Springfield. Get yourself setup somewhere now. You dont have to bail out immediately, but it will be nice to have some options open to you. We have some hi-tech jobs here in the Portland area, but not enough for 1000 people.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
It's not a mecca, but our unemployment has been quite low for years. Hell, the national unemployment rate has been quite low so maybe it's not as bad as you keep trying to claim.
But yes, do see what else it out there instead of just what is around your town in the boonies.
I've been applying and phone interviewing all over the country.
Yes but it's good for an update.
I wound up in New Jersey.
My stuff is in storage in Oklahoma since I can't afford to get it here so living out of suitcase in a rental. First two months in a hotel.
Just the average Nomadic American worker like the ATers say we should be.
America used to be so much better.
Most American engineers don't go to graduate school and go to work instead. All of the cutting edge stuff mostly done by foreign born grad students....
sunzt
Diamond Member
- Nov 27, 2003
- 3,076
- 3
- 81
Ok, here's my experience from just being out of college a few months ago:
As an Electrical Engineering undergrad, the smartest people around were the people on foreign visas from Asia (including India). They were no doubt the smartest and were the best at solving those crazy ass out-side the box questions from courses. My goal during every semester is to befriend the groups of these people and get into their study groups.
Here's the irony though. Whenever job/internship seeking time comes around, these people with the visas ALWAYS had the HARDEST TIME or were SEVERELY DISADVANTAGED compared to non-visa job hunters. Even though they were very smart, had much MUCH better GPAs than me I was NEVER worried about visa holders competing for my jobs. Why? Because sooooo many engineering companies only hire citizens/perm residents and also because the # of jobs available to foreign students are limited in any one company.
I've seen some very gifted friends not get the engineering jobs they are more than qualified for because of their limited options. Without a job in the US, they are forced to leave and go back to their country. When it comes to finding engineering jobs, it's definitely better to be a US Citizen and not a visa holder. BTW I support allowing more visas since there is some very good talent out there that American companies will pay very well for.
As an Electrical Engineering undergrad, the smartest people around were the people on foreign visas from Asia (including India). They were no doubt the smartest and were the best at solving those crazy ass out-side the box questions from courses. My goal during every semester is to befriend the groups of these people and get into their study groups.
Here's the irony though. Whenever job/internship seeking time comes around, these people with the visas ALWAYS had the HARDEST TIME or were SEVERELY DISADVANTAGED compared to non-visa job hunters. Even though they were very smart, had much MUCH better GPAs than me I was NEVER worried about visa holders competing for my jobs. Why? Because sooooo many engineering companies only hire citizens/perm residents and also because the # of jobs available to foreign students are limited in any one company.
I've seen some very gifted friends not get the engineering jobs they are more than qualified for because of their limited options. Without a job in the US, they are forced to leave and go back to their country. When it comes to finding engineering jobs, it's definitely better to be a US Citizen and not a visa holder. BTW I support allowing more visas since there is some very good talent out there that American companies will pay very well for.
First
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2002
- 10,518
- 271
- 136
Engineering jobs are in extremely high demand in most parts of the U.S., especially on both coasts. Those with basic college degrees and advanced degrees (Masters, PhD's, etc.) have absolutely no trouble living a middle class to upper class lifestyle, on average. Salaries continue to rise in the U.S. year-to-year.
All of this has been explained to the OP ad nausea. Does the laymen need to be linked again?
All of this has been explained to the OP ad nausea. Does the laymen need to be linked again?
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
You didn't do a very convincing job of explaining it to me; I think it's a dogma. It's one of those statements that is repeated so often that it's become accepted as true. A more interesting stat would be to see how graduates have fared in the past ten or fifteen years and it would be nice to break it down by major. (If stats show that the nation is producing, say, double the number of lawyers than what the market can accommodate, what are those other graduates doing? Just how are all of the science Ph.D. postdocs doing? What about the ones who couldn't find that next postdoc position?) It would also be interesting if those studies could somehow determine whether people's success was based on their degrees (are they working in the fields they trained for, are they working in somewhat related areas, or are they doing things completely unrelated to their studies) or whether the success was based on factors like work ethic, personality, and IQ. (In other words, it's possible that some of the people who did well might have done well even if they hadn't invested time and money on college or if we had a society where fewer people go to college and fewer jobs that don't make actual use of college education required having a degree for use as a job applicant (IQ, etc.) screening tool.)
herm0016
Diamond Member
- Feb 26, 2005
- 8,516
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I have a professor that has taught in many countries, including japan and India. he claims that the foreign engineers on average have better study habits and are very book smart compared to his classes here, but the students here are way more creative in there approach to solving problems. also, Many of the people I have worked with, esp. in the EE field on coursework and projects do not have enough practical knowledge to be able to look at a problem and build a solution to the problem on the spot.
many more engineeres graduate in forign countries than they do here because it is seen as a very hard degree to get without the pay that other "hard to get" degrees have.
many more engineeres graduate in forign countries than they do here because it is seen as a very hard degree to get without the pay that other "hard to get" degrees have.
Many engineering jobs cannot be outsourced. An engineer is typically fairly unproductive during their first few years, and peak around age 40-50 and that's because they've got decades of experience in their particular field. You can't outsource a job like that to India because people change jobs so quickly over there, and they seldom accumulate experience in a specific field.
I think the burden is on you. On average engineering starting salaries are rising about 5% per year across the board of all majors.
PhD in Engineering is often a waste of time. Many companies won't even look at hiring PhDs because of their tendency to learn all they can about the companies products and then quit after 4-5 years to do independent work or teach. It really doesn't make much sense to focus on a particular application of an engineering major when there's a dozen...it just narrows your list of companies to choose from. Engineers get their real training at work.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Another thing I want to point out is the fact that despite those numbers being very attractive at first glance, your opportunities of getting rich as an engineer are pretty crappy. 60,000$ looks pretty darn sexy at first, but good luck becoming rich as an engineer. Engineering money looks good until you are actually making it and realize it doesn't go as far as you think. Getting an engienering degree puts you into the middle class, but business or financial type jobs give you a much clearer path to the upper class imo (even though most will never make it), I think alot of people are looking at what sort of degrees get you RICH, not what degrees guarantee you are never poor.
Maybe Americans are being driven out of careers in Science and Engineering by terrible education in the early years? I think its safe to say Engineers as well as folks with degrees in science (atleast advance/applicable science) are not hurting for jobs like say, a philosophy major would. Plus it doesn't help when half the populace grows up dwelling on Britney and Paris rather than say focus on academics at school (thats females in high school).
Yeah, I think it is backwards to say that "Americans are being driving out of science/engineering", more like "Americans are choosing not to go into science and engineering and the rest of the world is filling the gap"
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