Americans Being Driven Out of Careers in Science and Engineering?

[WhipperSnapper]

As the nation's middle class crisis continues to deepen and worsen, the news media and our politicians continue to try to sell education as the solution to the nation's economic problems as though they were peddling an opiate of the masses. Economist and former Reagan Administration Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts has just released an op-ed saying that the claims and lobbying of a bogus American "skill shortage" is helping to drive Americans out of the science and engineering fields, helping to transform the nation into a third world country:

?Skill Shortage? Racket Driving Americans From Science And Engineering
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/071204_america.htm

Another recent op-ed discusses how foreign outsourcing and global labor arbitrage have contributed to the dollar's decline. This one also includes a discussion of why the dogmatically held notion of comparative advantage does not apply to global labor arbitrage:

Offshoring Interests and Economic Dogmas Are Destroying the U.S. Dollar
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/071211_offshoring.htm

So, what do you guys think? Are solid college-education-requiring middle class jobs with benefits becoming increasingly difficult to find? Are we becoming a nation of low-wage service providers? Is the value of college education decreasing as more Americans desperately flood the universities while the number of college-education-requiring jobs per capita decreases?

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Didn't Bill Gates ask for unlimited work visas or whatever so he could hire a whole new generation of programmers from India for less than he would have to pay Americans? Heard a blurb about it on the news a few weeks ago.

 

[Jaskalas]

So what jobs WILL Americans do?

Certainly don?t build homes anymore.

 

[CanOWorms]

Anyone that has a graduate degree in engineering can tell you that there is a shortage of Americans with advanced degrees. I think one of the issues is that in the US, you have much better options than engineering. In other countries, engineering is the top option.

Also, IT is neither engineering nor a science. One of those articles seems to think that it is engineering.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Anyone that has a graduate degree in engineering can tell you that there is a shortage of Americans with advanced degrees. I think one of the issues is that in the US, you have much better options than engineering. In other countries, engineering is the top option.

Also, IT is neither engineering nor a science. One of those articles seems to think that it is engineering.

This. Everyone I know that graduating with an engineering degree in the last few years has been begged to take jobs and they are all making $50k+ after a year.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven
Didn't Bill Gates ask for unlimited work visas or whatever so he could hire a whole new generation of programmers from India for less than he would have to pay Americans? Heard a blurb about it on the news a few weeks ago.

maybe because we have a distinct lack of qualified programmers, as well as engineers.

 

[theeedude]

It's all going to end poorly for many of these companies that are outsourcing and bringing foreign workers, because it's changing the culture that made them successful.
Many foreign workers come from more conservative and risk averse cultures, so they do not to take any risks and just do what they are told. They depend on the job for staying in this country, so there is too much to lose by taking professional risks. Sounds like manager's wet dream? Well, yes, in the short term. But long term, it's risk takers who make these companies successful, not compliant clock watchers. Instead you get these "yes" men who stay in positions long enough to get get their green cards and promoted to management, and then hire more "yes" men to do the same, and then like a pool of stagnant water, the whole organization becomes rotten, and the culture that made the company successful is slowly destroyed, resulting in a dying company.

 

[CycloWizard]

I'm finishing up a PhD in engineering (hopefully... maybe, some day ) and I have plenty of job opportunities on my plate. American citizens who are engineers are pretty hard to come by, and they are the only thing allowed in government/defense industry roles, which are a very large market sector. Indeed, all of my undergrad roommates but one, US citizens with engineering degrees, work for the government or a defense contractor at this point. I have no fear of finding a good paying job when I graduate, even though my department is saturated with students from everywhere except the US. My record stands out from most foreigners because I have work experience in a variety of areas and have a more robust background that is not purely technical.

The bottom line is that this is yet another market correction. If someone else can do your job for less money, then you have no reasonable expectation of keeping your job unless you're willing to take a pay cut. The good thing about science and engineering jobs is that they create themselves as a natural result of progress. The only time foreign competition hurts us is when we are applying for grad schools and schools (WashU being perhaps the worst offender) preferentially accepts foreigners, pays them more, and gives them better benefits. But I know that I'll still get a job before them when I'm done. :shrug;

 

[Siddhartha]

This is a matter of supply and demand:

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I can't speak for engineering, but the science field is a career graveyard for Americans. In fact, it's so bad that enough have fled science to become patent lawyers that now we have a glut of patent lawyers, too.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
As the nation's middle class crisis continues to deepen and worsen, the news media and our politicians continue to try to sell education as the solution to the nation's economic problems as though they were peddling an opiate of the masses. Economist and former Reagan Administration Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts has just released an op-ed saying that the claims and lobbying of a bogus American "skill shortage" is helping to drive Americans out of the science and engineering fields, helping to transform the nation into a third world country:

?Skill Shortage? Racket Driving Americans From Science And Engineering
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/071204_america.htm

Another recent op-ed discusses how foreign outsourcing and global labor arbitrage have contributed to the dollar's decline. This one also includes a discussion of why the dogmatically held notion of comparative advantage does not apply to global labor arbitrage:

Offshoring Interests and Economic Dogmas Are Destroying the U.S. Dollar
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/071211_offshoring.htm

So, what do you guys think? Are solid college-education-requiring middle class jobs with benefits becoming increasingly difficult to find? Are we becoming a nation of low-wage service providers? Is the value of college education decreasing as more Americans desperately flood the universities while the number of college-education-requiring jobs per capita decreases?

Back when I was working in New Zealand, Oracle bought out the company I was working in, took the software, and fired everyone (about 50 of us).

So I assure you that it's a two way street.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
This. Everyone I know that graduating with an engineering degree in the last few years has been begged to take jobs and they are all making $50k+ after a year.

Yes, thats what I see too, I can't speak to some nationwide trend as I don't have the data, but I am from a middle class family and had absolutely no problem finding a decent paying job with benefits right out of college ever with pretty pedestrian qualifications. Now I do see this sort of thing in some other places, for example right now I am in one of the medical research buildings and I have not seen a white person in the last 5 hours and thats not a joke every single medical researcher here at Vanderbilt is Asian, the only white people I see are the people running the labs we are in charge FOR NOW, but in 20 years when they are all retired it will be Asians running every level of that business from top to bottom which is kinda sad because they are raking in shit tons of research grants here and I'm sure medical researchers make some pretty good money.

That being said, I do want to characterize some thing here concerning the way I see members of the white and Asian communities that I have known. Asian people mostly think that they way to succeed in life is to work hard and be very good at a certain job, so for example to be a hard working engineer who is good at solving engineering problems. White culture does not stress this, the hard working engineer is exactly what everyone does NOT want to be. White people see success as being managers and executives, EVERY white person I know in engineering school does not actually plan to be doing engineering all their lives. That might sound kind of weird, but they all want to be MANAGING engineers or else running engineering companies. The skills that are valued aren't great circuit design or good math skills, they value things like working in teams or managing money etc. I am not saying one approach to life is better than another, but saying that white people are cr@ppy engineers is missing the fact that white people don't WANT to be engineers, the white persons success story is all about being a stock broker or international business man or hedge fund manager, not being a successful engineer.

 

[shortylickens]

This may or may not be relevant:

I work at Hynix in Eugene as an Equipment Technician. Having seen how much effort the asians are willing to put into the industry, and the fact they are practically handing us jobs (which we dont do nearly as well as them) I too think the engineering field might not be the best choice for a lot of people.

I would need a crapload of school AND experience just to be as useful as a Korean with limited school and average experience, and he will settle for about 1/4 the pay. We cant keep up with the wafer plants in Korea and we demand a lot more money and time off and other benefits than they do. Remember the Micheal Keaton movie "Gung Ho"? Thats the way it is now with Korea.
Not to mention the fact that working in a factory (hi-tech, but a factory nonetheless) has soured my taste for the electronics field anyway.

It used to be a great line of work, but the competition is ridiculous, it requires constantly going back to school, and is the field most likely to make you understand the concepts of supply and demand. The final output of engineering is almost always business (most engineering majors have a business minor). And engineers live and die by how much product they make and how cheaply they can do it.

We are getting creamed. Realistically if I want to survive I should be thinking about another line of work. Am trying to get into medical equipment calibration and if that doesnt work out for me, I may just go back to school to be in a more traditional medical field. That seems to be the big winner nowadays.

 

[BrownTown]

At the risk of making even more racist statement based on limited personal knowledge I also want to point out that while most Asian student I have know had very good GPAs they were poor at actually doing any sort of abstract thinking. Again, based on limited personal experiences, Asian people are VERY good at solving math problems or engineering problems out of a textbook, but when you give them a real world problem they just sort of sit there and stare into space because there is no best answer or even well defined math they are required to follow. Asian engineers are great at solving the same types of problems over and over again, but not so good at solving unique problems from first principles.

As per the post above this one, an equipment technician is exactly the type of job I would expect Asian people to excel at which might be part of the reason why the poster is fealing pressure on his job, if you want to be relatively immune to having your job sent to some far off Asian land than I would say one way would be to get a job that does not involve problems that can be solved with a computer or calculator. For example I worked with tons of engineers in my summer internship whose job was managing the construction of substations, this required not only understanding the blueprints, but also organizing subcontractors and parts manufacturers to ensure everything was running smoothly, in a way this might seem like a "management" type job, but it was entry level engineers with <3 years of work that were managing this and it took not only "book learning", but also social skills to be able to deal with engineers and construction foremen from several other companies. Personally the job I just got concerns the construction of power plants here in the ol USA, hard to export that since they actually expect the engineers to go down to the plant and SEE that the things they designed were built correctly which isn't exactly something you can do from India.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

I can't speak for engineering, but the science field is a career graveyard for Americans. In fact, it's so bad that enough have fled science to become patent lawyers that now we have a glut of patent lawyers, too.

Well now hold the phone there, skipper. What you just said and what you said in the first post are two different things. Americans being "driven out of science and engineering" implies that there are a lot of Americans trained in the field who simply can't get jobs because foreigners took all those jobs. Americans "fleeing science and engineering", on the other hand, means that foreigners are working in those fields because there aren't enough Americans doing that kind of work.

In my experience, I think the latter is a more accurate description of what it going on. The number of Americans going into those fields is not all that impressive, and since there are still a lot of good jobs in those areas, it seems like a natural draw for foreigners looking for good work.

And I will say that I agree that the value of a college education is OVERALL decreasing, but not in science and engineering fields (or a lot of other fields for that matter). It used to be that you could have a degree in ANYTHING and get a good job, but now that many more Americans have a degree, having gone to college is not enough to make you stand out. But if you major in something that gives you actual skills, I'm not sure you're any worse off now than you would have been 30 years ago.

 

[shortylickens]

In addition to my other comments I also agree with BrownTown.

Americans dont push math and science in the public school system. We love our gadgets but we are not a high tech society. Most people have no clue how wave propagation works or even how electrons move across a conductor.
They just know if they push a button they can instantly talk to their friend across the country.
The math required of an average American high school student to graduate is considered a joke in Asia. The science is incredibly basic, and in most schools science and math electives are non-existant.
I took Electronics I in my sophmore year and Electronics II and III had not been taught in a LONG time. We had about 30 people in the start of the year and by the end it was 10. The lone female in the class left during the first month.
All the stuff I learned in 9 months of the Navy's Advanced Electronics course would take 4 years at a high school pace.

In the public school system we arent pushing our children to succeed in a scientific world and its showing.


He's also right about the management thing. At my job most of the managers are regular Americans. The expats and Korean Americans dont make it very high, even though its a Korean owned corporation.
Grown up Americans also have no interest in stretching their minds constantly. The engineers move out of engineering positions as soon as possible. Too much brain stress and headaches in the thinking department. As a manager you can be a total idiot (or at least not use your brain) and still succeed.

Although I dont agree about Asian problem skills. Most of the asians I worked with here and in the Navy are good at abstract and real world problems.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Anyone that has a graduate degree in engineering can tell you that there is a shortage of Americans with advanced degrees. I think one of the issues is that in the US, you have much better options than engineering. In other countries, engineering is the top option.

Also, IT is neither engineering nor a science. One of those articles seems to think that it is engineering.

This. Everyone I know that graduating with an engineering degree in the last few years has been begged to take jobs and they are all making $50k+ after a year.

Yep. We've been trying to hire Engineers for the last 7 years in my office. We've quadrupled in size since I started 7 years ago and still have to turn down work because we don't have enough Engineering staff. Also most of the plants I go into are short staffed in the Engineering dept too(thus the reason they call us).

 

[DarkThinker]

You want to know why there is a shortage of engineers from my POV, I think it's because generations from this point and forward are being programmed to stay clear of anything that doesn't sound cool and to most people, Engineering is considered hard, mostly for nerds (unless you are Chemical Engineer, but then you would most probably be a girl and are less nerdy), not as great paying as other things that wouldn't require nearly as much effort (i.e Accounting, Business Management, Sports, Rockstars...etc you name it). You have so many young boys and girls that are constantly dabbling with technology on a level that not our ATARI and Doom generation dreamed of doing when growing up at that age, yet how often do you see someone pause for a moment and think "How does this work?", "Can I make it / design it better?", "I want to be part of this and I want to create this and that" such questions are the building blocks of what makes us Engineers, we want to know how it works, why it works and last but not least how to create it if not as good then better.

My personal experience is that Engineers are slowly becoming a dying bread here in the states, not only that, but the people with the intellectual skills to become Engineers are just decreasing in number thanks to the environment around. Now that might not necessarily be a bad thing for me, I guess logically I get more demand / incentives that way, but on the flip side this poor country at the end will face the consequences. If Engineering with all the fields it encompasses fails here in the US then surely you can expect everything else to follow suit.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
You want to know why there is a shortage of engineers from my POV, I think it's because generations from this point and forward are being programmed to stay clear of anything that doesn't sound cool and to most people, Engineering is considered hard, mostly for nerds (unless you are Chemical Engineer, but then you would most probably be a girl and are less nerdy), not as great paying as other things that wouldn't require nearly as much effort (i.e Accounting, Business Management, Sports, Rockstars...etc you name it). You have so many young boys and girls that are constantly dabbling with technology on a level that not our ATARI and Doom generation dreamed of doing when growing up at that age, yet how often do you see someone pause for a moment and think "How does this work?", "Can I make it / design it better?", "I want to be part of this and I want to create this and that" such questions are the building blocks of what makes us Engineers, we want to know how it works, why it works and last but not least how to create it if not as good then better.

My personal experience is that Engineers are slowly becoming a dying bread here in the states, not only that, but the people with the intellectual skills to become Engineers are just decreasing in number thanks to the environment around. Now that might not necessarily be a bad thing for me, I guess logically I get more demand / incentives that way, but on the flip side this poor country at the end will face the consequences. If Engineering with all the fields it encompasses fails here in the US then surely you can expect everything else to follow suit.

Heh, I think the same way sometimes. I will agree though that there seems to be a shortage of people with the correct set of analytical and logical thinking skills. We've hired some Engineering grads and interviewed some who have zero critical thinking skills. It makes me wonder how they got through school, or is the school just that easy. It's sad really.

 

[Genx87]

Are solid college-education-requiring middle class jobs with benefits becoming increasingly difficult to find?

I'd say the opposite. Our unemployment has been at basic full employment for some time.

Are we becoming a nation of low-wage service providers?

No idea, if we are, it is only because we lack the people to fill those jobs.

Is the value of college education decreasing as more Americans desperately flood the universities while the number of college-education-requiring jobs per capita decreases?

Yes, like anything on a demand curve. When there is a higher supply, its price is lower. More university educated people equals less premium.

As for the idea we arent in a high skills crunch in this country. You have to be kidding me. Anybody with technical skills, especially engineers or computer related studies are snapped up pretty fast. If they arent, there is some issue with that particular candidate. I didnt read the entire articles but the first one provided an example of an electrical\computer engineer who hasnt been able to find a job in 5 years. At that point you have to ask what is wrong with the candidate.

I have plenty of engineer and computer industry friends. They came out of school in 00-01 making 50+ and are sitting in the 70-100+ range now. When they switch jobs they lay down their terms for hire and people snatch them up within weeks.

I mean, maybe my friends and associates are just really good at this job. Or maybe the market isnt what people are trying to say. And there is indeed a serious crunch for technical and educated people in this country.

I worked for a major manufacturer a few years ago. They offshored part of their engineering dept. The reason wasnt about money, but they couldnt get enough visa's and people from the local workforce to fill the ranks. So they opened a dept in India while keeping all of their US engineers employed and working stateside.

The saddest part about that situation is once it is in India, it wont come back. If the govt's immigration policy wasnt so screwed up they could have brought in qualified engineers from India to work stateside. That provides benefits for the company as they arent half a world away. And it provides benefits to the public as they are paying state income, sales, and property taxes.

But instead lets restrict these highly educated people while letting the uneducated masses free flow over our southern border.

/puke

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

I can't speak for engineering, but the science field is a career graveyard for Americans. In fact, it's so bad that enough have fled science to become patent lawyers that now we have a glut of patent lawyers, too.

Well now hold the phone there, skipper. What you just said and what you said in the first post are two different things. Americans being "driven out of science and engineering" implies that there are a lot of Americans trained in the field who simply can't get jobs because foreigners took all those jobs. Americans "fleeing science and engineering", on the other hand, means that foreigners are working in those fields because there aren't enough Americans doing that kind of work.

In my experience, I think the latter is a more accurate description of what it going on. The number of Americans going into those fields is not all that impressive, and since there are still a lot of good jobs in those areas, it seems like a natural draw for foreigners looking for good work.

There are tons of Americans with advanced degrees in the life sciences (biochemistry, biotechnology, biology), chemistry, and physics. The reason why I said "fled" is that they became disgruntled by the reality of the employment market and the career outlook for people in those fields. After you've worked your second low-paid gypsy scientist position called a postdoctorate (with your completed Ph.D.) and still can't find a solid middle class job, you start to consider other options. I have first hand knowledge of this and an advanced degree in one of those areas.

Just because the media and our politicians want to sell Americans on science careers and just because the National Science Foundation can blatantly lie about an alleged shortfall of people in the sciences doesn't make it so.

Science is just like any other field--if Americans no longer want to work it it's probably because it's no longer worth the investment of time and money needed to enter the field, perhaps because opportunities have decreased along with wages as a result of a flood of cheap labor. Consequently, now we have too many people with a combination of two advanced degrees -- advanced science degrees + law school and probably too many with advanced science degrees + MBA.

To learn more, read the series of essays, Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs:

http://science.freeshell.org/

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In addition to my other comments I also agree with BrownTown.

Americans dont push math and science in the public school system. We love our gadgets but we are not a high tech society. Most people have no clue how wave propagation works or even how electrons move across a conductor.

So what? Why does that matter? The overwhelming majority of jobs require no knowledge of Quantum Mechanics nor any math beyond simple algebra. What's important is whether or not we have enough Americans who are good at it and knowledgeable about it to meet the demand in what would be a closed American free market.

The math required of an average American high school student to graduate is considered a joke in Asia. The science is incredibly basic, and in most schools science and math electives are non-existant.

But the majority of real world jobs don't need much math and science. Does it really matter if the truck driver knows about Quantum Mechanics? Does the waitress or the bartender need to know Differential Equations? Does the carpenter need to know anything about Biochemistry? Does the grocery store manager need to know anything about Lasers?

If you want to make this argument, you should argue that the science, math, and engineering curricula in our universities is substandard and that our college students who major in those fields are receiving a relatively substandard education in those fields.

In the public school system we arent pushing our children to succeed in a scientific world and its showing.

How is it showing? Just where are we suffering negative consequences as a result? Can you back this up or are you just saying it because it's the "conventional wisdom" that's been pandered to Americans by the media and our politicians?

Grown up Americans also have no interest in stretching their minds constantly. The engineers move out of engineering positions as soon as possible. Too much brain stress and headaches in the thinking department. As a manager you can be a total idiot (or at least not use your brain) and still succeed.

It all boils down to economics. If being an engineer or a scientist requires a greater exertion of effort then those positions need to pay more money and in a closed American free market economy with a finite labor supply, the economic mechanics of supply-and-demand would set a price point for it.

Don't you find it amazing that hundreds of thousands of American undergraduates are willing to bust their butts to try to get into medical school--to get into a field where they're essentially guaranteed a nice six figure income with job security, social status, and for males, easy access to desirable women? Might that promise of excellent compensation in a field relatively free of career competition have something to do with that?

Consequently, I do think that Americans are willing to do the work--as long as it makes economic sense. If Americans don't want to spend 10 years worth of college education earning Ph.D.'s for jobs that don't exist, maybe there's a good reason for it. If Americans would prefer to work in management instead of as engineers, maybe there's a good reason for it. Perhaps working in management is more lucrative and requires less exertion relative to the wages?

To understand these issues, all you need is a solid understanding of the relationship between supply, demand, and price point.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
You want to know why there is a shortage of engineers from my POV, I think it's because generations from this point and forward are being programmed to stay clear of anything that doesn't sound cool and to most people, Engineering is considered hard, mostly for nerds (unless you are Chemical Engineer, but then you would most probably be a girl and are less nerdy), not as great paying as other things that wouldn't require nearly as much effort (i.e Accounting, Business Management, Sports, Rockstars...etc you name it). You have so many young boys and girls that are constantly dabbling with technology on a level that not our ATARI and Doom generation dreamed of doing when growing up at that age, yet how often do you see someone pause for a moment and think "How does this work?", "Can I make it / design it better?", "I want to be part of this and I want to create this and that" such questions are the building blocks of what makes us Engineers, we want to know how it works, why it works and last but not least how to create it if not as good then better.

Only about 50% of chemies are women these days, which is one of the reasons it's a much more desirable area to go into as a student. Chemical engineers are probably more dorky than nerdy, but it's just semantics at that point. The only reason we might be perceived as less nerdy is because we know how to brew our own beer... and we do, and we drink it. I think you're right that part of the problem is that so many of us grew up with this technology now that we just take it for granted, while those in developing nations didn't grow up with it, so they came across it at an older age and appreciated it more.

My personal experience is that Engineers are slowly becoming a dying bread here i the states, not only that, but the people with the intellectual skills to become Engineers are just decreasing in number thanks to the environment around. Now that might not necessarily be a bad thing for me, I guess logically I get more demand / incentives that way, but on the flip side this poor country at the end will face the consequences. If Engineering with all the fields it encompasses fails here in the US then surely you can expect everything else to follow suit.

I don't know that the intellects required are decreasing, but the people with the intellect to achieve it see far easier, more rewarding career paths. I could have easily gone into business and be making about 8x what I'm making now without having to struggle nearly as much. However, I didn't see that as personally fulfilling at all, since apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
So, what do you guys think?

Are solid college-education-requiring middle class jobs with benefits becoming increasingly difficult to find?

Are we becoming a nation of low-wage service providers?

Is the value of college education decreasing as more Americans desperately flood the universities while the number of college-education-requiring jobs per capita decreases?

My wife has two degrees and a certified teacher and cannot land a job.

She is working a hotel front desk job for minimum wage, you tell me.

 

[GenHoth]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

My wife has two degrees and a certified teacher and cannot land a job.

She is working a hotel front desk job for minimum wage, you tell me.

My old high school is hiring, hell I think most schools are these days. Its tough to find qualified teachers!