America RIP -- great article

[Texashiker]

How about we balance it with "FAIR trade", not the one way bullshit free trade that we have now? Tariffs are only a small part of that and considering that China and other countries tariff the shit out of our stuff, we need to can the agreements and start over. Might be too late for that though as we have our head so far up China's ass that if we pull the breathing tube, we won't survive as we have forgotten how to breath on our own.

The internet generation will have no idea what its like to get their hands dirty. There are some of the inet generation that will go into the blue collar workforce, but for the most part, we are talking about a generation of paper pushers.

Unless a nation produces something, we are not adding to the overall wealth. Building an iphone in china, then some 25 year old kid buying that phone in Texas does not add to the wealth of a nation.

In 20 - 25 years when my generation retires, how is the inet generation supposed to pay my retirement and medical needs? They are not producing anything the world wants to buy.

If we think times are rough now, what is it going to be like in 20 years? I say 20 years because the baby-boomers will be needed constant medical care, and generation X will be retiring.

If we think the baby boomer generation is going to cost a fortune retiring, what is going to happen when gen X and the baby boomers are both retired?

 

[1prophet]

Yea he said it but you have to put it in the same context for what he believes. Namely that minimum wage should be abolished and corporate taxes should be significantly lower while abolishing the majority of the welfare state.

In that context we would be able to directly compete with China on even ground. Which for all intents would work fine.

Obviously people disagree but it's sort of irrelevant since this won't happen and we are talking about the end of the middle class currently.

The bottom line is that with our policies we did not need free trade agreements and those that advocated against it were laughed off the face of the Earth. Sorta like Peter Schiff warning about the housing bubble 2 years in advance.

I hear this BS all the time about minimum wage, how is the elimination of minimum wage going to help when Americans won't pick vegetables and fruit for $10 or more an hour which is more than 99% of minimum wage?

 

[Northern Lawn]

That really was a great article. Sobering.

Thanks for posting.

 

[nextJin]

I hear this BS all the time about minimum wage, how is the elimination of minimum wage going to help when Americans won't pick vegetables and fruit for $10 or more an hour which is more than 99% of minimum wage?

And why should they? They have every program in the world to prevent them from needing too. It is not as simple as comparing minimum wage to low skilled jobs. Comparing them would be the equivalent of saying terrorists hate us because we have Apple Pie and McDonald's.

I am not advocating abolishing the minimum wage because it is quite simply absurd to try to, but I am not naive enough to believe that the hundreds of programs involved do not effect our current situation.

For example the best time in history for the middle class had an inflation adjusted amount of 9.65 an hour for minimum wage. So what changed between then and now? Tons of government programs along with major "free trade agreements".

Everything has played a part in the situation we are in.

 

[child of wonder]

This is how capitalism works. If it is more cost effective to eat your own legs then you eat your own legs so this quarter's financials look better, the stock goes up 10%, and you get a bonus.

Next quarter are the arms....

In all seriousness, there is no incentive to do the "right" ("right" being a subjective term) thing in a capitalist economy. This isn't an indictment of capitalism, that's just the way it works. So when we see people shipping jobs overseas that's really a reflection of ourselves -- we want everything, we want it cheap, and we don't care who we have to step on to make it happen.

Personally, I'd like to see a tariff on goods coming from other countries. "Free trade" is supposed to mean exchanging goods with other nations, not migrating manufacturing there to exploit cheap labor. Either the companies affected will move more jobs back to America or new companies will start within America.

 

[bfdd]

Entitlements. People think they're entitled to jobs they've been conditioned to not "need" or "want". If you support any resemblance of our current "system" shame on you.

 

[HomerJS]

Lets have another stimulus and tax the rich so we can get even! Thats the current "solution". Hardly two neurons functioning with parties and partisans, and that includes the reps.

Let's have another tax cut for the rich so they can park their money offshore and bet against America

 

[nextJin]

Let's have another tax cut for the rich so they can park their money offshore and bet against America

Let's have 100 percent tax on the rich to pay for 7 days of deficit spending!

 

[Engineer]

All you guys are doing is proving that neither tax cuts or increased taxes are going to fix this. You can have cheap items to purchase along with cheaper wages or you can have higher wages and more expensive items to purchase....one of them comes with a deeper dependence on a government that will be strangled for cash. Can you guess which one?

 

[nextJin]

All you guys are doing is proving that neither tax cuts or increased taxes are going to fix this. You can have cheap items to purchase along with cheaper wages or you can have higher wages and more expensive items to purchase....one of them comes with a deeper dependence on a government that will be strangled for cash. Can you guess which one?

Oh I know, just poking fun at people.

It will take higher revenue and drastic cuts to do anything and with neither side agreeing I see nothing but good times ahead for my children.

 

[shortylickens]

For the above argument: You can't tax quality. If the Asian stuff is simply better then thats what people will gravitate towards eventually. Also, they can make stuff for a fraction of the average american worker. And our government is not likely to put 1000% tariffs on goods.

Oh, and theres nothing you can do about illegal immigrants working here for half minimum wage, cuz thats what improves the bottom line for businesses who turn around woo politicians with the money they saved.

 

[Engineer]

For the above argument: You can't tax quality. If the Asian stuff is simply better then thats what people will gravitate towards eventually. Also, they can make stuff for a fraction of the average american worker. And our government is not likely to put 1000% tariffs on goods.

Oh, and theres nothing you can do about illegal immigrants working here for half minimum wage, cuz thats what improves the bottom line for businesses who turn around woo politicians with the money they saved.

Are the currencies on equal footing? That's one thing that I agree with Romney 110% on, and if I knew he would follow through with that promise, I might decide to vote for him (hell, still might).

 

[bfdd]

Are the currencies on equal footing? That's one thing that I agree with Romney 110% on, and if I knew he would follow through with that promise, I might decide to vote for him (hell, still might).

Isn't Reagan the one who pegged the Chinese currency to our own at a 3 to 1 exchange rate? BTW Romney has no clue whatsoever when it comes to what's going on with our currency and what China is doing with theirs and their economy. China is going to dump the dollar, shortly after the rest of the world will follow suit and we'll be stuck with all this monopoly money. We will be economically crushed by our arrogance and ignorance. We cannot grow ourselves out of this hole if we do not make efforts to greatly shrink the hole. Without taking harsh drastic cuts to our budget, not just cutting future increases to the budget like both Obama and Romney want to do, we're going to collapse under our own weight.

 

[Engineer]

Isn't Reagan the one who pegged the Chinese currency to our own at a 3 to 1 exchange rate? BTW Romney has no clue whatsoever when it comes to what's going on with our currency and what China is doing with theirs and their economy. China is going to dump the dollar, shortly after the rest of the world will follow suit and we'll be stuck with all this monopoly money. We will be economically crushed by our arrogance and ignorance. We cannot grow ourselves out of this hole if we do not make efforts to greatly shrink the hole. Without taking harsh drastic cuts to our budget, not just cutting future increases to the budget like both Obama and Romney want to do, we're going to collapse under our own weight.

Sounds like we need to strap on a big rock and proceed off the cliff then.

 

[werepossum]

For the above argument: You can't tax quality. If the Asian stuff is simply better then thats what people will gravitate towards eventually. Also, they can make stuff for a fraction of the average american worker. And our government is not likely to put 1000% tariffs on goods.

Oh, and theres nothing you can do about illegal immigrants working here for half minimum wage, cuz thats what improves the bottom line for businesses who turn around woo politicians with the money they saved.

Government used to put 100% tarifs on things at times. The first time I ever called a politician was when RAM suddenly skyrocketed a day before I went to order my parts for a new build. My Representative was utterly useless (didn't know locally, couldn't work their phone system to transfer me to D.C. without cutting me off a half dozen times, and the lady in D.C. was also clue-impaired), Senator Al Gore's office blew me off once they had my name and realized I wasn't someone important, but finally Senator Jim Sasser's office had the answer. Korean RAM manufacturers were dumping product below cost to buy the market, so the President (Reagan or Bush I, I forget - hell, maybe even Carter) slapped a 100% tariff on Korean RAM. That's a good reason for prices to skyrocket. Trouble is, we've signed so many free trade agreements that we can't do things like that anymore. Now we've got, what, maybe two small manufacturers still making any RAM in the USA?

One tiny bright spot - I had to rebuild a toilet this weekend, and Lowes had a brand called Korky that is made in the USA. Unfortunately I couldn't get one of those dual flush kits like I wanted, they're all made in China, but finding anything made in the USA today is a score. Seems to me that Lowes and especially Ace are actually doing a little better at offering American-made (or at least Mexican-made) alternatives.

 

[bfdd]

Sounds like we need to strap on a big rock and proceed off the cliff then.

No, we need to get our economics in order. We can't keep up the non-sense voodoo economics we currently have any longer. We MUST cut back period. We must get rid of the Fed and have sensible monetary policy, we must get rid of entitlements that are strangling us, we must get rid of the huge military that's holding us back. If we don't get our spending and debt under control now, we're fucked. If we keep fucking around with half assed measures that the Republicans and Democrats spit out, we'll continue to be strapped to that big rock and they'll push us right off the cliff. Things need to change drastically, that's the only way we can save any of it.

 

[shortylickens]

Government used to put 100% tarifs on things at times. The first time I ever called a politician was when RAM suddenly skyrocketed a day before I went to order my parts for a new build. My Representative was utterly useless (didn't know locally, couldn't work their phone system to transfer me to D.C. without cutting me off a half dozen times, and the lady in D.C. was also clue-impaired), Senator Al Gore's office blew me off once they had my name and realized I wasn't someone important, but finally Senator Jim Sasser's office had the answer. Korean RAM manufacturers were dumping product below cost to buy the market, so the President (Reagan or Bush I, I forget - hell, maybe even Carter) slapped a 100% tariff on Korean RAM. That's a good reason for prices to skyrocket. Trouble is, we've signed so many free trade agreements that we can't do things like that anymore. Now we've got, what, maybe two small manufacturers still making any RAM in the USA?

One tiny bright spot - I had to rebuild a toilet this weekend, and Lowes had a brand called Korky that is made in the USA. Unfortunately I couldn't get one of those dual flush kits like I wanted, they're all made in China, but finding anything made in the USA today is a score. Seems to me that Lowes and especially Ace are actually doing a little better at offering American-made (or at least Mexican-made) alternatives.

Yup, I lost my job when Hynix shut down. Even a 100% tariff couldnt make us competitive. We had Koreans come over for 18 month work programs and I learned a lot from them. They get by on a small fraction of what we do, they are smarter, more willing to change, harder working, and complain less.

Americans could probably compete on the non-monetary issues, if we werent so spoiled, self-entitled, lazy, and stupid. But we will never compete on salaries. We will always be the most expensive workers in the world.

 

[shortylickens]

The internet generation will have no idea what its like to get their hands dirty. There are some of the inet generation that will go into the blue collar workforce, but for the most part, we are talking about a generation of paper pushers.

Unless a nation produces something, we are not adding to the overall wealth. Building an iphone in china, then some 25 year old kid buying that phone in Texas does not add to the wealth of a nation.

In 20 - 25 years when my generation retires, how is the inet generation supposed to pay my retirement and medical needs? They are not producing anything the world wants to buy.

If we think times are rough now, what is it going to be like in 20 years? I say 20 years because the baby-boomers will be needed constant medical care, and generation X will be retiring.

If we think the baby boomer generation is going to cost a fortune retiring, what is going to happen when gen X and the baby boomers are both retired?

I'm IN generation X, and theres no way in hell we will be able to retire in 20 years.
And the Boomers have been retiring for a while. We are not getting their jobs. Their jobs are disappearing or going overseas.

 

[RampantAndroid]

More 1% braggarts

Errr....no, more people with the right skills at the right time. Getting offers does not equate to being the 1%. I'm in the tech industry and you'd have to call me the top 25%. All you need do is have a good looking linkedin profile and you'll get recruiters mailing you left and right. I've got a job I'm quite happy with so I just ignore it most of the time...though I do some interviews just to make sure I'm on my toes/have options open...

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Errr....no, more people with the right skills at the right time. Getting offers does not equate to being the 1%. I'm in the tech industry and you'd have to call me the top 25%.

Come on man!!!! I like being in the 1% and laughing at McOwned's whining.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Come on man!!!! I like being in the 1% and laughing at McOwned's whining.

He does whine about people who have steady jobs being evil 1%ers pretty often, from what little I've seen. It's like a bad joke...

 

[Auric]

In other words, it's not the economists and politicians that are incompetent, it's the American public (especially those middle class workers) that believed (and some still do) that this is a great benefit to the American society.

But it's free, like 'Mericah, so it must be good. Also, cheap gadgets (shiny shiny!).

This is how capitalism works. If it is more cost effective to eat your own legs then you eat your own legs so this quarter's financials look better, the stock goes up 10%, and you get a bonus.

Next quarter are the arms....

In all seriousness, there is no incentive to do the "right" ("right" being a subjective term) thing in a capitalist economy. This isn't an indictment of capitalism, that's just the way it works. So when we see people shipping jobs overseas that's really a reflection of ourselves -- we want everything, we want it cheap, and we don't care who we have to step on to make it happen.

Yes, but the problem is not really captialism per se but rather public corporations. The impetus for short-term gain is akin to that of public office. Which explains the awful results of their collusion.

 

[Dulanic]

You are going to blame it on advertising? This shit started back in the 70's and we were warned back then by a lot of those same corporations that we would lose jobs. I remember the billboards back then that said every time you buy and import car 1.5 Americans will lose thier jobs. Now it is convient to blame it on the same corporations that warned us what would happen. In 2006 the US had a nearly $800 Billion trqade deficit. You have to be out of your mind to think that a deficit like that is anything but catastrophic to American jobs.

That's right corporations are our saviors! They tried to save us! Partisan bullshit. What is killing us is the lack of leadership from both sides of our country. The majority of consumers will always look out for their bottom line, that bottom line is is saving expenses and receiving income. The majority of corporations will always look out for their bottom line that bottom line is saving expenses and creating revenue.

The only way around this is for incentives or penalties are created to move that demand where it needs to be to support the country. That can be done via tax incentives/penalties, tariffs etc...It is consumers job to be concerned about their own well being. It is the corporations job to be concerned about their profit. Both do so by viewing the short term impact not the long term. It is the governments job to care about BOTH in the long term. The downside is the government is not doing it's job. The reason for that is discussed in 1000 other threads and there isn't one reason.

 

[piasabird]

My wife worked at a bank and Bank of America (BAC) hired people in india to review all the checks with some kind of a system on their network. I think this is going too far. To think someone in another country has access to your financial records is a bit much. At every turn we are outsourcing jobs. Solar panels made in China? Electric Car Charging stations made in India. This is what we got from the Green Industry. Everything is made in another country.

We need to do something to bring back jobs to America. Other countries are doing this!

 

[thelastjuju]

We no longer provide opportunities for ordinary, blue collar Americans to earn a living like we used to, and we're becoming a bit too proud of that. We just look down our noses at them, front like they didn't "work hard enough", and pretend like this sort of thing won't have any long term consequences.