AMD's X2 A Failure Over At Tom's

[sandorski]

It is a wonky setup, but not entirely without merit. As part of a larger regimen of tests, this one could be very informative, but as it stands it seems oddly skewed towards the P4 and not really about determining which is the better processor for anyone in particular.

Consider first, how many of us would use a computer in this way? I know I sure as hell wouldn't be using that many Intensive tasks at once, hell I'd be lucky to use that many different intensive tasks within a week.

Secondly, what if ones useage of Intensive Tasks isn't 4, maybe it's 2, 3, 5. Does this test mean anything to those, which I'd hazzard a guess is the vast majority, who use other than 4 intensive tasks? Doesn't it seem logical that other tests should be done comparing 2(A64 max threads),3(A64 Max threads +1).5(P4 Max Threads +1) Intensive tasks as well?

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Pariah
It's a platform stability test. CPU's running under their designed environment are very rarely the cause of system instability. It's the stability of the entire platform that anyone should care about. Drivers, software, and hardware all play a role in system stability. Since the drivers and software are the same between the 2 systems, then that leaves the hardware as the deciding factor.

If anything this test is slanted in favor of AMD. In an attempt top make the hardware as comparable as possible, THG decided to go with Gigabyte motherboards. Nothing against Gigabyte who makes a quality product, but if my number one priority was stability, I would go with an Intel motherboard. In an ideal scenario the AMD CPU would be tested on an AMD motherboard while the Intel would be tested on an Intel board. Since AMD doesn't make boards, that's clearly not an option, so THG decided to go with the same 3rd party for both CPU's.

If it's a stability test, why not stop the test at the first crash, or use the uptime over number of crashes as the primary benchmark? Also, if it is a stability test, they should be running more combinations for a good test of that. If it's just for hardware stability, they shouldn't be using Windows, and should be using more than one chipset.

If the voltages ripple too far, a stress test should be done with that PSU.
If anything overheats, that part has FAILED the stress test. Period.
As it is, it just isn't much a test.

Why not just several runs in series of the normal benchmark suit, with multiple tasks running, and make that part of the next normal review?

 

[imported_BikeDude]

Originally posted by: Pariah
Gigabyte who makes a quality product, but if my number one priority was stability, I would go with an Intel motherboard. In an ideal scenario the AMD CPU would be tested

Incidentally, where I work, the one motherboard that has given us the most grief is a standard Intel motherboard with the 865 chipset. It kept producing bluescreens one after another. We switched everything, PSU, CPU, memory, disk and motherboard (same type though). I think the solution was populating three memory sticks instead of two (effectively disabling dual channel). They're surely not a magic cure against all ills. Instead Intel leave out features (what, no firewire support?) and ask for more money.

Not to mention that time I had a SE440BX motherboard that didn't let me press any keys under Win98. (not a problem as they fixed that fairly quickly with a BIOS upgrade, and I wasn't going to use Win98 for long anyway)

All in all, I do agree Intel usually use quality components and err on the safe side. I'm not, however, going to buy an Intel motherboard thinking "100% bug free!". (I like their network controllers though, specially now that they finally added better VLAN support in their drivers)

 

[oogabooga]

When has tom's been accurate it's been a long time since...

all tests seem biased lately, but at tom's i always feel as though i can predict who'll win before i even read the article.

 

[Pariah]

If it's a stability test, why not stop the test at the first crash, or use the uptime over number of crashes as the primary benchmark?

Any test like this is more accurate the longer you run it. This isn't rocket science. Just because one of the systems crashes doesn't mean the other system won't be the one to crash the next 5 times in a row. The update page does have current uptime for each system posted.

If it's just for hardware stability, they shouldn't be using Windows, and should be using more than one chipset.

Again, it is a platform test which includes the OS you run. What's the point of running the test under an OS that 90% of the world doesn't use? I don't care how stable the system runs on an OS I don't use. I don't see how XP would play any role in the results here. I literally could not tell you the last time my system has crashed and it runs at 100% load 24-7. For 2 systems like the ones being tested which are clean installed for the purpose of these tests, there is no reason to believe that Windows would have any impact on stability.

BikeDude, pick any product ever made and someone has had a bad experience with it. That said, given the choice of the most stable Windows platform, I would go with Intel CPU and motherboard. If I had to choose 3rd party, I would go with Intel and Supermicro.

 

[impemonk]

Originally posted by: Brian23
I don't understand THG website. It looks like they don't give any benches or draw any conclusions.

What I don't understand is why Chucky Cheese pizza is so delciouso? Fufufuffufuuzeeeee

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: n7
The sad thing about this thread is how the OP posted this to incite a flame war...& he got one...

He is apreantly also a fan boy of AMD X2 and is disapointed that It is not living up to what ever expectations he has, that is why he started it. Poor Intel Basher doesn't get his way.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: Pariah

Why test exactly 4 tasks instead of 3, 5, 6? Why not add in 3dsmax 3D rendering, and/or linux kernel compiles, and/or ....
a) The number was picked at random, for no particular reason, and the results are either correct or false

It's not random at all, but apparently you're too busy trolling along to figure it out yourself. The P4 is seen as FOUR CPU's to windows. So in order to make sure the CPU is stressed as much as possible, how many applications do you need to run? A 5 year old can get this one. Four.

and the number was picked to give trolls like porkster ammunition for "X2 is lousy at multitasking" spews. If so, it's a lousy test design since the AMD will hammer the P4 on 3 tasks, the P4 will race ahead on the fourth, and we gain much less information than we would with a comparison of both machines running just 3 tasks.

No it wasn't, the problem is you're too dumb to see what this article is testing. The benchmarks are completely irrelevant to the point of the article.

The only reason the apps were chosen is because they are commonly used applications. The applications serve no purpose at all except to generate a 100% CPU load on each system. There is no reason to pick over 4 applications since neither CPU can technically run that many simultaneously. Once a 100% load is generated on each system, the goal has been achieved to test its stability. Whether the system is running 4 Lame encodings or 50 won't make any difference in the results, since a CPU bound 100% load can neither be hard or easier than CPU bound 100% load generated under different applications.

If you're going to waste your time trolling in a thread, at least troll about what the article is actually testing, instead of why your favorite CPU isn't performing the way you want it to, when that isn't even the point of test.

THG could easily put both systems under 100% CPU load on all available cores and/or logical CPUs without using four different applications. Case in point: a 3D modelling app can use all available physical or logical CPUs to render. Even my crummy Caligari trueSpace 4.3 has that capability, which is one reason I've owned three (Intel-powered) dualies.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Duvie
You dont have to rig the apps you "know nothing"....many who have played with OS and apps know you could manipulate priority, having specific apps in foreground or background effects their priority, and overall how you start an app in certain orders will give precedent over others.....Use your fvcking brain....

Originally posted by: Googer
Calm down troll....... I am well aware that prority can be manipualted and the forground window gets top processing priority over all other applications, I am smarter than you might believe me to be.

Originally posted by: Duvie
So googer you are calling me a troll???

Yes I am calling you what you are. :shocked:

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: impemonk

Originally posted by: Brian23
I don't understand THG website. It looks like they don't give any benches or draw any conclusions.

What I don't understand is why Chucky Cheese pizza is so delciouso? Fufufuffufuuzeeeee

Do you like chocolate pudding?

*waits to see who gets this one*

 

[Pariah]

The applications are irrelevant. I've never seen a Caligari benchmark on THG. They used what they had available and what they thought would do the job. I couldn't care less what they used, it should not have any affect on the outcome of the results, so I see no point in arguing over the choices they made.

 

[mechBgon]

Never seen a 3DS Max or Lightwave benchmark at THG either? Anyway, from your previous post, they posture that this setup somehow represents "typical usage conditions," which I think is stretching things. Don't you?

 

[Pariah]

Typical applications, yes, usage, no.

 

[Chode Messiah]

I think we should ban the intel fanboi troll

 

[fierydemise]

Wow this is just like the video forum

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Googer

Originally posted by: Duvie
You dont have to rig the apps you "know nothing"....many who have played with OS and apps know you could manipulate priority, having specific apps in foreground or background effects their priority, and overall how you start an app in certain orders will give precedent over others.....Use your fvcking brain....

Originally posted by: Googer
Calm down troll....... I am well aware that prority can be manipualted and the forground window gets top processing priority over all other applications, I am smarter than you might believe me to be.

Originally posted by: Duvie
So googer you are calling me a troll???

Yes I am calling you what you are. :shocked:

Well I think most here would disagree with that, but coming from a moron such as yourself I doubt most will pay attention to it, Goober....

I am sorry lately your beloved INtel has not been doing well against the evil AMD....I guess you cant stroke your epenis enough and feel the need to attack me when the argument was between pabster and I ...no one needs your comments and mine were never directed at you.....

Please feel free to discredit anything I said....For if I was a troll that should be pretty easy for a semi smart person..i know that may be a bit difficult for you, Goober....

 

[porkster]

Originally posted by: DuvieAlso anyone who has done this knows process priority can be effected by order of starting apps, whether an app is in the foreground or minimized to the background....I can skew these results 2-3 different ways....Since the result can be skewed one should really question any results until verified by others......Toms test are already renowned for being impossible to duplicate...

Even if there is an issue with HT being given a better change at balancing the load, the AMD is struggling. You could honestly say that if the OS was forced to balance the load for the AMD X2's inconsistencies, the scores on the benchmarks would be very poor and make the Intel the far better choice for new system purchasers and upcoming Longhorn.

.

 

[EightySix Four]

I also stand up for duvie... googer... I hate to say it but your a moron... You just called one of the users I have the most respect for on this whole site a troll.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: porkster

Originally posted by: DuvieAlso anyone who has done this knows process priority can be effected by order of starting apps, whether an app is in the foreground or minimized to the background....I can skew these results 2-3 different ways....Since the result can be skewed one should really question any results until verified by others......Toms test are already renowned for being impossible to duplicate...

Even if there is an issue with HT being given a better change at balancing the load, the AMD is struggling. You could honestly say that is the OS was force to balance the load for the AMD X2's inconsistencies, the scores on the benchmarks would be very poor and make the Intel the far better choice for new system purchasers.

.

It may be if the person was attempting to run 4 cpu intensive apps on a regular basis, and needs this type of multitasking ability....If they need 3 cpu intensive apps I am not sure as you have stated if the little cpu usage that even the intel system is giving the Divx system would make up enough...I would say it couls be pretty damn close. The gaming could equal out, the winrar would still likely go to AMD, but the lame encoder if the SMT one could take the biggest leap an go slightly into Intel favor.....

It really depends....it depends on the apps ppl use and it depends on how the apps are threaded...

remember one thing this is for HT enabled dual cores which are only the 840 EE ($1000 dollar plus cpu).....This does not translate down to the more bread and butter line of dual cores which theoretically will hit that same wall at 4 cpu intensive apps....right???

 

[porkster]

Originally posted by: BFG10KThis is the some of the biggest BS I've seen in a long time. The A64 currently has the most powerful FPU available in a desktop processor.

You just have to look that the world results database of SiSoftware's Sandra to use the lack of FP power on the AMD range.

.

 

[Duvie]

The funny thing is about a year and a half ago when I was trying to show the benefits of ht and multitasking and put together test that had less cpu intensive apps then this you all said I was full of it and no one would need to do that much at once....Now you prescribe to this as a reflection of what ppl will use these for??? I doubt it.....Ppl will game and encode, yes....Ppl will game, encode and maybe have some file scanning going at the most.....Ppl like me will have folding at home going while still plugging away at my main uses of encoding or rendering.....

I do a lot but most things dont take much....

Encoding (avi (xvid) to mpeg2 DVD)
downloading files with 360share
watching a CSI Xvid encoding
Folding Home in the background
Internet open occasionally checking on who is bad mouthing me....
ADT 2004 open and perhaps 3d modeling (not cpu intensive until you render (usually at end)) rendering in this app is heavily multithreaded so when I I am not encoding it will really take advantage of whatever cycles are left on the 2nd core....

That there is more then most will do and that is not anywhere near the load Toms is putting on the system....

 

[porkster]

Originally posted by: PariahJust because one of the systems crashes doesn't mean the other system won't be the one to crash the next 5 times in a row. The update page does have current uptime for each system posted.

True. Farcry isn't the most stable game. Also of note is that the P4 isn't getting the proper air duct?ing that is expected in specifications of usage, from Intel documentation.

I don?t see the extra crash an issue as the AMD was the first system to die and also the AMD X2 is using older material technologies for their silicon, so they have a better power an overclocking rate, but lose on heat tolerance. The reason why if the AMD fan happens to lose quality or speed it could risk data in a business environment. One could also say the AMD X2 would be worse at overclocking in a enthusiast environment as teh AMD range is already overclocked per silicon quality.

.

 

[porkster]

Today's $1000 CPU's are tomorrow's $200 CPU's.

I personally multitask my applications alot, so a good CPU is impotrant for my purchase choice. I need a CPU that is a good all rounder, not just tailored for winning single task benchmarks.

The Intel 840EE is the winner in the test, but lets see if the AMD is failure due to faults in design or another issue.

.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: porkster

Originally posted by: BFG10KThis is the some of the biggest BS I've seen in a long time. The A64 currently has the most powerful FPU available in a desktop processor.

You just have to look that the world results database of SiSoftware's Sandra to use the lack of FP power on the AMD range.

.

You actually consider Sisoft Sandra to be a benchmark to use for performance comparison?! It's only real purpose is comparing against a reference. Also, where is this mysterious (unGooglable) database to look at?

Edit: I have not been able to find any straight FPU benches (multimedia benchmarks include lots memory bandwidth, so the P4 should be winning in those) over a decent range of CPUs, except for this:
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030422/opteron-19.html
Not terribly new, but a solid test, even at Tom's, and showing very well that with straight FPU, the Athlons of all kinds are exceptionally good. The current AT G5 vs. Xeon vs. Opteon shows similar results, but doesn't have much of a range, and nothing within reach of most CPU buyers (even considering that the performance is dead even with the normal desktop counterparts for the Xeon 3.6 and Opteron 2.4).

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: porkster
Today's $1000 CPU's are tomorrow's $200 CPU's.

I personally multitask my applications alot, so a good CPU is impotrant for my purchase choice. I need a CPU that is a good all rounder, not just tailored for winning single task benchmarks.

The Intel 840EE is the winner in the test, but lets see if the AMD is failure due to faults in design or another issue.

.

HOw do you figure??? 1 out of 4 is the loss or just that the 4th test is getting no cycle from the cpu???

Tell me what you would be multitasking with???

Also tell me where you have seen the P4 beating the X2 in dual task (meaning 2)...They dont only dominate (yes dominate) in single task...

Looking at the numbers a bit more I would say that if the 20% extra was spread out (as it would likely) I dont see INtel still winning the majority of the test...

So...

1 task = AMD
2 task = AMD
3 task = likely AMD (some Intel)
4 task = Intel if you dont mind the slower performance (20-25%) in the first 3 task

You realluy need to find some more proof to base that on...

Also if you are waiting for this chip to be 200 you will be waiting a long time...look at what the P4 ee 3.2ghz and 3.4ghz chips (almost 1-1/2 years old) still are.....I doubt you will see these things 200 bucks..plus by then the more superior Intel dual core chip will be out and put all of that to shame anyways...