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Looks like customers are reaching out to AMD to produce ARM-based products through their semi-custom division. That's . . . interesting. Why aren't they going to Ampere instead? Is Ampere saying "no"?
Oh, I guess it wasn't all that well known then. I'm totally serious about what it is, and it didn't tape-out on 14nm but rather a different node.
Aaaand that's my input on K12 done for the day
I think AMD has a lot of advantages over Ampere. For one, AMD is a much larger company with more resources to help partners. The same advantage that Intel has over AMD.
AMD has superior packaging technology compared to Ampere. I assume that AMD's infinity fabric (consider the next gen) will save on product costs, and increase the max frequency of the highest sku due to chiplet binning. AMD already has 3D stacking for cache and I'm sure we will see more with Zen 4.
AMD can share the same socket and platform with the already established platform. This will save on costs since it is massed produced. In addition, AMD can integrate its CDNA chips and Xilinx chips.
Nope, K12 was at TSMC, first version on 16FF for 2017, since 2015 and second version on 12FF for 2018, since 2017.Was it 22FDX?
Looks like customers are reaching out to AMD to produce ARM-based products through their semi-custom division. That's . . . interesting. Why aren't they going to Ampere instead? Is Ampere saying "no"?
Bingo.Nope, K12 was at TSMC, first version on 16FF for 2017, since 2015 and second version on 12FF for 2018, since 2017.
16FF+ with ARMv8.0-A+, 12FFC with ARMv8.2-A+ w/ optional SVE supported which was a Jan 2017+ addition*.EDIT: Although I'm not sure about the whole first version/second version bit.
Plus, AMD is also acquiring Xilinx that has some Arm in its portfolio.
I call BS on this one.
Fair point, that is true. Xilinx FPGAs do make use of ARM cores.
Kumar did come out and say that their semi-custom customers want ARM solutions. It might not have been the main focus of the interview, but . . .
While he did, it wasn't the way you seem to imply. The interviewer's only mention of ARM is this:The interviewer pressed him.
While he did, it wasn't the way you seem to imply. The interviewer's only mention of ARM is this:
"It's not just your other x86 competitor trying to rejuvenate itself, it's also some vertically integrated folks doing ARM-based processors A6, et cetera."
Kumar's response containing ARM is this:
"I'll tell you from my standpoint, when you look at compute solutions, whether it's x86 or ARM or even other areas, that is an area for our focus and investment for us. (...) And it's really the solutions that are important, we know compute really well even ARM as you referenced, we have a very good relationship with ARM, and we understand that enroll customers want to work with us with that particular product to deliver the solutions, we stand ready to go ahead"
So it's essentially going, paraphrasing: "You not only face a rejuvenating x86 competition, but also ARM-based competitors." - "ARM is not a competitor, it's an area of investment for us that our customers can choose to pick as well." In short, embracing the potential competition.
Full transcript of that interview for those interested:
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.'s (AMD) Management Presents at Deutsche Bank Technology Conference 2021 (Transcript)
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (NASDAQ:NASDAQ:AMD) Deutsche Bank Technology Conference 2021 September 10, 2021 2:05 PM ETCompany ParticipantsDevinder Kumar -...seekingalpha.com
Then we agree. That's not what's called "lip service" as you did before though, quite the opposite as Kumar states AMD is prepared to serve such requests by customers.My interpretation is: "If Amazon asked us to make an Arm based Epyc, which they would use throughout the ASW cloud, we would make Arm based Epyc for them, but we are not developing Arm based Epyc on our own"
Were any wafers produced?Bingo.
Zen also taped out on N16 as well.
EDIT: Although I'm not sure about the whole first version/second version bit.
And the subtext, provided by Andrie and Ian, is that would require an ‘investment' on the part of said customers; as is the norm for semi-custom work. Anyway, quite an interesting advertisement that AMD is open to developing ARM CPUs as part of a semi-custom solution. Even though they are not interested in developing and selling their own ARM based CPUs in general. I take this to mean that AMD would be happy to take an ARM design directly from ARM and implement it as part of a customer solution vs doing a ground up custom ARM design - the latter approach would be far too expensive for most companies not named Apple.While he did, it wasn't the way you seem to imply. The interviewer's only mention of ARM is this:
"It's not just your other x86 competitor trying to rejuvenate itself, it's also some vertically integrated folks doing ARM-based processors A6, et cetera."
Kumar's response containing ARM is this:
"I'll tell you from my standpoint, when you look at compute solutions, whether it's x86 or ARM or even other areas, that is an area for our focus and investment for us. (...) And it's really the solutions that are important, we know compute really well even ARM as you referenced, we have a very good relationship with ARM, and we understand that enroll customers want to work with us with that particular product to deliver the solutions, we stand ready to go ahead"
So it's essentially going, paraphrasing: "You not only face a rejuvenating x86 competition, but also ARM-based competitors." - "ARM is not a competitor, it's an area of investment for us that our customers can choose to pick as well." In short, embracing the potential competition.
Full transcript of that interview for those interested:
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.'s (AMD) Management Presents at Deutsche Bank Technology Conference 2021 (Transcript)
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (NASDAQ:NASDAQ:AMD) Deutsche Bank Technology Conference 2021 September 10, 2021 2:05 PM ETCompany ParticipantsDevinder Kumar -...seekingalpha.com
Then we agree. That's not what's called "lip service" as you did before though, quite the opposite as Kumar states AMD is prepared to serve such requests by customers.
Of course it would require an investment of the customer, that's what the whole semi custom business is all about, chip design for hire. But it's also good business strategy for AMD R&D to keep holding all cards even after efforts to pursue a market launch of K12 were shelved in favor of full focus on the x86 market. After all AMD uses ARM core and IP in every chip anyway, and K12 shared most designs with Zen. So while that would need being updated (most notably the frontend part as @uzzi38 rightfully pointed out) even that would not need a ground up design effort anymore, the ground work had been already done.And the subtext, provided by Andrie and Ian, is that would require an ‘investment' on the part of said customers; as is the norm for semi-custom work. Anyway, quite an interesting advertisement that AMD is open to developing ARM CPUs as part of a semi-custom solution. Even though they are not interested in developing and selling their own ARM based CPUs in general. I take this to mean that AMD would be happy to take an ARM design directly from ARM and implement it as part of a customer solution vs doing a ground up custom ARM design - the latter approach would be far too expensive for most companies not named Apple.
Why would they? Semi custom stuff appears on the customers' roadmaps, that's the whole point.Using a little more precise language: Are high end Arm cores on AMD roadmap? Is AMD investing its own money into a high end Arm cores
Of course it would require an investment of the customer, that's what the whole semi custom business is all about, chip design for hire. But it's also good business strategy for AMD R&D to keep holding all cards even after efforts to pursue a market launch of K12 were shelved in favor of full focus on the x86 market. After all AMD uses ARM core and IP in every chip anyway, and K12 shared most designs with Zen. So while that would need being updated (most notably the frontend part as @uzzi38 rightfully pointed out) even that would not need a ground up design effort anymore, the ground work had been already done.
Indeed that's rather unlikely (though I do think they keep doing R&D on ARM cores to some degree). That's exactly why I wrote earlier in the thread that I don't expect custom ARM cores to be involved in this, just AMD's IPs concerning uncore, interconnects, graphics and packaging.They would need to spin CPU design teams back up that have been disbanded or reassigned. The customer would need to accept that AMD has no roadmap to further develop the ARM core- this is a one-and-done deal, unless the customer pays again for the next round of CPU development too.
The point of semicustom is to reuse AMD's existing IP with relatively small modifications. For a reasonable price, you get a chip tailored to your needs. What you are describing is not SEMIcustom, it's almost entirely custom.
Strange. They won't use Ryzen but they'll hire AMD to make a custom ARM CPU?
Really odd indeed. On the other hand due to the Xbox consoles there should be plenty knowledge at Microsoft about AMD's semi custom business so maybe that's the tangent that made this possible. If that rumor is true to begin with, that is.