AMD's response to Titan?

[notty22]

Titan is not a short lived product, that rumor was addressed at launch.

Retail boards based on this design- manufacturers world-wide
http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/1996/NVIDIA_GeForce_GTX_Titan.html

 

[Eureka]

Both AMD and Nvidia have been releasing new video card series every year since they got into the business. They were also both able to refresh their 40nm lineup in 2011, and AMD managed to beat Nvidia to the market in both 40 and 28 nm chips.

So:

I assume you have a reason to assume AMD would somehow not be able to refresh their 28nm lineup like they did with the 40nm GPUs?

You do realize that AMD is stretched to the limit right now? Yes, they have the better consumer card at the moment, but it's virtually a miracle for them. Nvidia, on the other hand, had this chip in development for years and only now just released it for consumers.

Sorry, but AMD is floating by at the moment. IMO, AMD is better off folding and selling their GPU department to a company with the resources to make something truly work.

 

[-Slacker-]

You do realize that AMD is stretched to the limit right now? Yes, they have the better consumer card at the moment, but it's virtually a miracle for them. Nvidia, on the other hand, had this chip in development for years and only now just released it for consumers.

Sorry, but AMD is floating by at the moment. IMO, AMD is better off folding and selling their GPU department to a company with the resources to make something truly work.

Then this is the evidence for stating that they have nothing ("you cant make something out of thin air")? That they're doing badly financially?


"Nvidia, on the other hand, had this chip in development for years and only now just released it for consumers."

Is there a source that confirms the development process for the geforce Titan was particularly long compared to other high end models from nvidia?

Also, what does the presumably long development time of a 550 mm^2 card have to do with the ability of another manufacturer to bring a new product to the market? Will AMD have to design a comparably sized chip just to compete?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Both AMD and Nvidia have been releasing new video card series every year since they got into the business. They were also both able to refresh their 40nm lineup in 2011, and AMD managed to beat Nvidia to the market in both 40 and 28 nm chips.

So:

I assume you have a reason to assume AMD would somehow not be able to refresh their 28nm lineup like they did with the 40nm GPUs?

The time of yearly GPU refreshes is gone. AMD also reaffirmed it.

And 20nm is far far away. So tell me what single 28nm GPU AMD can counter a Titan with?

 

[-Slacker-]

The time of yearly GPU refreshes is gone.

Why?

And 20nm is far far away.

It doesn't have to be 20nm. The 6970 and gtx 580 refreshes were built on the same 40nm process as the previous lineups.

So tell me what single 28nm GPU AMD can counter a Titan with?

The burden of proof would have to be on you, but I don't mind speculating, since you ask:

AMD doesn't have to make a 550^2 gpu like Nvidia, given the relatively low clock speed that the Titan is running at. They don't even have to make something equal, or faster - it just has to be faster than the hd 7970GE.

The 6970 was only 20% faster than the 5870, and that was enough to sell.

 

[Ferzerp]

You realize that given the same performance level, nvidia tends to outsell AMD even when they're priced higher, right?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Why?

Due to the expanded time between node shifts and the design costs.

Remember this?

It doesn't have to be 20nm. The 6970 and gtx 580 refreshes were built on the same 40nm process as the previous lineups.

The burden of proof would have to be on you, but I don't mind speculating, since you ask:

AMD doesn't have to make a 550^2 gpu like Nvidia, given the relatively low clock speed that the Titan is running at. They don't even have to make something equal, or faster - it just has to be faster than the hd 7970GE.

The 6970 was only 20% faster than the 5870, and that was enough to sell.

There isnt much to do for AMD, besides making a whole new bigger chip that takes a very long time.

And speedwise its already done. HD7970GE. Its how far you can push it currently.

 

[AnandThenMan]

You do realize that AMD is stretched to the limit right now? Yes, they have the better consumer card at the moment, but it's virtually a miracle for them.

A miracle, really? Or maybe AMD's engineers were just better at bringing out higher performing hardware sooner than Nvidia this round. And of course it has happened with previous generations as well. Stupid statement is stupid.

Sorry, but AMD is floating by at the moment.

Another dumb statement, but assuming true, that doesn't exactly paint Nvidia in a postive light, beaten by a company that is barely scraping by.

IMO, AMD is better off folding and selling their GPU department to a company with the resources to make something truly work.

You're on a roll.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Remember the current GPUs started design several years ago.

 

[dragantoe]

lol a gaming firepro w9000

 

[Vesku]

Why?

It doesn't have to be 20nm. The 6970 and gtx 580 refreshes were built on the same 40nm process as the previous lineups.

Why? Wafer costs mainly. Nvidia and AMD have both grumbled publicly about how going from 40nm to 28nm actually reversed the trend of lower cost per die due to a significant jump in cost per wafer.

The release of the Titan is itself a confirmation of longer wait for next gen. Nvidia wouldn't be releasing this card if they expected to roll out a GTX 780 in 6 months that will match or beat it.

 

[-Slacker-]

You realize that given the same performance level, nvidia tends to outsell AMD even when they're priced higher, right?

So?

Due to the expanded time between node shifts and the design costs.

Remember this?

Yeah. I remember AMD denied the rumor:

http://news.techeye.net/chips/amd-denies-graphics-card-rumours

There isnt much to do for AMD, besides making a whole new bigger chip that takes a very long time.

Is there some unique challenge that would prevent them from making a bigger chip this year, like they did with the hd 6970? Or are you saying that they haven't been working on a refresh lineup and would have to start from scratch?

And speedwise its already done. HD7970GE. Its how far you can push it currently.

How do you know that and, if true, why would that stop them from making a refresh lineup?

Why? Wafer costs mainly. Nvidia and AMD have both grumbled publicly about how going from 40nm to 28nm actually reversed the trend of lower cost per die due to a significant jump in cost per wafer.

Then going from 28nm to 28nm won't be as expensive.

The release of the Titan is itself a confirmation of longer wait for next gen. Nvidia wouldn't be releasing this card if they expected to roll out a GTX 780 in 6 months that will match or beat it.

Could you maybe rephrase that a bit? I'm not entirely sure if I see the connection to longer periods between releases.

Remember the current GPUs started design several years ago.

But that's not different from previous development times, including the 2 generations of 40nm chips...

Again, how does that relate to AMD not being able to release a refresh for their 7000 lineup?

What's different this time?

 

[Vesku]

Going from 28nm to 28nm probably isn't worth the R&D costs if the only SKU that outperforms your top die is in the $1000 bracket. If they feel a marketing need to respond, a dual gpu option is the most likely response.

Rephrasing regarding Titan meaning next gen is a while off: Nvidia wouldn't be releasing Titan if they had any intention of launching their next generation GPUs in the next 6 months. Which puts the generation gap to 1.5 years +. They must also be quite confident AMD won't be releasing their 7970 replacement soon, either. Nvidia is quite proficient in the marketing department, risking the Titan getting overshadowed in 6 months is not something I'd expect from them.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yeah. I remember AMD denied the rumor:

http://news.techeye.net/chips/amd-denies-graphics-card-rumours

Is there some unique challenge that would prevent them from making a bigger chip this year, like they did with the hd 6970? Or are you saying that they haven't been working on a refresh lineup and would have to start from scratch?

How do you know that and, if true, why would that stop them from making a refresh lineup?

I am sure we can all agree that the current GPUs have now been there for 15 months. And there is no sign of any change

Plus the entire HD7xxx line got renamed into HD8xxx for OEMs. Also showing nothing new is around the corner.

The HD6970 and variants was planned years ahead of its launch. It wasnt made in a year or suddenly doing some lunchbreak.

And speedwise, its pretty obvious.

Not sure what you are advocating for. But its not gonna happen.

 

[ShintaiDK]

But that's not different from previous development times, including the 2 generations of 40nm chips...

Again, how does that relate to AMD not being able to release a refresh for their 7000 lineup?

What's different this time?

You are looping around now.

 

[2is]

Do they need to? It's a 1000$ card....

So release a competitive product for $800 and sell many times more. The fact that its $1000 is more of a reason to compete, not less.

 

[Vesku]

If Nvidia moves 100,000 Titans this year that's $100 million spent MSRP, Nvidia's profit will be a % of that (40~?). This is fine for Nvidia since it's a rebadge of a product already paid for by it's primary GPGPU market. AMD would be lucky to recoup up front costs if they were going to create a custom response.

 

[Keysplayr]

So release a competitive product for $800 and sell many times more. The fact that its $1000 is more of a reason to compete, not less.

Maybe they can release a Dual Tahiti Card (actually made by AMD) and sell it for 800.00.

 

[AnandThenMan]

If AMD broke even by having a comparable GPU to Titan, that would be a win for them. But I don't think they can do it not enough volume.

Maybe they can release a Dual Tahiti Card (actually made by AMD) and sell it for 800.00.

Why bother, you can buy 3 7970's and still be cheaper than a Titan.

 

[-Slacker-]

I am sure we can all agree that the current GPUs have now been there for 15 months. And there is no sign of any change

But that's not what you first posted; You said "You can't make something out of thin air.", by which I assume you were implying that they didn't have, or weren't working on anything. That's not the same as saying that a gpu release this year is unlikely, or even uncertain.

[/quote]The HD6970 and variants was planned years ahead of its launch. It wasnt made in a year or suddenly doing some lunchbreak.[/QUOTE]

That's one of the things I've been trying to clarify for the previous one or two posts - how do you know that the sea islands series wasn't also planned for years?

Going from 28nm to 28nm probably isn't worth the R&D costs if the only SKU that outperforms your top die is in the $1000 bracket. If they feel a marketing need to respond, a dual gpu option is the most likely response.

A few things to consider:

-AMD doesn't know weather or not nvidia is planning to release a consumer geforce lineup.
-The Titan's $1000 price tag has only been known (read: confirmed) for half a month.
-If the Titan is too expensive to compete with any of AMD's gaming cards, then all the more reason to release new chips and secure the high end market. Nvidia would have no competition in the low market share ultra-enthusiast space (had to come up with a new tier for a $1000 card ), while AMD would be free to tear it up in the high end space for some much needed revenue.

You are looping around now.

No, I am trying to figure out how you know that AMD isn't going to release a new round of cards in the following months. I am begging to suspect that you don't actually know it, but you're determined not to lose the argument. That would explain why you couldn't back up your claim directly even after several posts, and have fallen back on anecdotal arguments.

 

[notty22]

If AMD broke even by having a comparable GPU to Titan, that would be a win for them. But I don't think they can do it not enough volume.

Why bother, you can buy 3 7970's and still be cheaper than a Titan.

Why did AMD bother in the past?

 

[Jacky60]

AMD has a small pair of breasts with which to respond.

 

[Vesku]

A few things to consider:

-AMD doesn't know weather or not nvidia is planning to release a consumer geforce lineup.
-The Titan's $1000 price tag has only been known (read: confirmed) for half a month.
-If the Titan is too expensive to compete with any of AMD's gaming cards, then all the more reason to release new chips and secure the high end market. Nvidia would have no competition in the low market share ultra-enthusiast space (had to come up with a new tier for a $1000 card ), while AMD would be free to tear it up in the high end space for some much needed revenue.

AMD can be quite confident there will be no 500mm2 GPGPU chips being brought down into the mainstream GPU line unless AMD itself pressures Nvidia into doing so.

Although the $1000 MSRP wasn't known it was known it would be quite expensive, thanks to it's die size.

If AMD was focused on dominating the ultra-enthusiast space I would have expected to see a chip above the 7970 by now. They would have designed it along with the rest of the 7000 series line up. Pretty much since the 4000 series ATI/AMD has been about mainstream GPUs.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Pretty sure Nvidia is still outselling AMD from $100-$500 overall, so at this point the ball is in AMD's court... Nvidia has the stack this gen, and the market share to back it up.

AMD should have focused on a refresh instead of boost and GHz cards, those don't change perceptions very well it seems.

 

[-Slacker-]

AMD can be quite confident there will be no 500mm2 GPGPU chips being brought down into the mainstream GPU line unless AMD itself pressures Nvidia into doing so.

All GF gpus since the 8800gtx, with the exception of the 9800gtx rebrand, were built at around 500mm^2; The gtx 280 is the largest nvidia gpu at 570mm^2, and it was released when all AMD had was the scrubby hd3870, which couldn't even outperform nvidia's last gen.

So ... yeah...