As I see it we have 3 choices if we want a fast machine: 1. Buy an AMD 2000 and live with the heat problems, fan noise and hope we chose the best chipset offered this week. 2. Bite the bullet a get a P4 2.2 G and an Intel chipset board. Fewer problems, but we may have to pack our lunch for the next year to pay for it. 3. Get a P4 1.6 and hope it overclocks without heat, stability or other problems. Choice 1 and 3 appear the same to me?fast, cheap, but potently problematic. Is a P4 1.6 over clocked to 2.2G any more stable than a AMD 2000 not overclocked?? Is it any faster?? The answer to both questions is probably no. Choice 2 is the best if you can afford it. Thoughts gentlemen??? R.
AMD vs Intel--again
- Thread starter RickH
- Start date
<< 1. Buy an AMD 2000 and live with the heat problems, fan noise and hope we chose the best chipset offered this week. >>
I would never buy a 2000+. If you want 2000+ speed, buy a 1700+ or 1800+ and overclock it to 2000+ speed.
<< Bite the bullet a get a P4 2.2 G and an Intel chipset board. >>
For the same reasons, I can't imagine anyone would buy a 2.2, when the 1.6A will run the same speed with default voltage and the stock Intel heatsink, and costs less than a third as much. Well, if you want to try and overclock to 3.0GHz, I guess you have to go with the 2.2. Though if I really wanted a 3.0GHz machine, I'd wait until May when the 2.2 drops to $220.
<< 3. Get a P4 1.6 and hope it overclocks without heat, stability or other problems. Choice 1 and 3 appear the same to me?fast, cheap, but potently problematic. >>
You don't have to worry about heat with the new P4 unless you are doing some extreme overclocking (2800-3000+MHz). A P4 overclocked to 2600-2700MHz still puts out less heat than a stock Athlon XP 2000+.
<< Is a P4 1.6 over clocked to 2.2G any more stable than a AMD 2000 not overclocked?? Is it any faster?? The answer to both questions is probably no. >>
Some AMD systems (using VIA, SIS) chipsets can take more effort to get stable, but once you've got your system setup how you want it, it should be just as stable as an Intel system. As for performance, the 2.2G will be faster in benchmarks in perhaps 60% of apps and games, and the 2000+ will be faster in perhaps 40% of apps and games. In reality, you are not going to be able to tell the difference unless you run benchmarks. If you run the 1.6A at 2400MHz (which every 1.6A chip with the right motherboard will do with the stock Intel heatsink), as it will do with slightly increased voltage, then it will outperform the 2000+ in perhaps 90% of apps and games, but even then, you probably won't be able to tell a difference unless you run benchmarks. If you OC the 1.6A to 2550-2650MHz, as you may or may not be able to do, then you probably will notice a difference, at least in a few games and in media type tasks (MP3 and DIVX encoding, etc), but will most likely not tell a difference in general windows usage, or even most games (I mean, how many people can really tell a difference between 58fps and 70fps, or 300fps and 220fps?).
Here is my 2 cents...the P4 o/c ed maybe faster but it has SSE2...nice
also less cooling is needed for o/cing so it will be quieter..you can probably use quieter fans that is....
I just built a Amd 1700@1650(11x150) on abit kr7a-raid..cost more than a P4 1.6a with asus p4B266..I wish I knew how close time wise the P4 northwood was to my decision to upgrade...about 6wks...
I love amd setup but would prefer the the P4..run cooler and in FL by summer I bet my 150 fsb will need to drop down for stability
also less cooling is needed for o/cing so it will be quieter..you can probably use quieter fans that is....
I just built a Amd 1700@1650(11x150) on abit kr7a-raid..cost more than a P4 1.6a with asus p4B266..I wish I knew how close time wise the P4 northwood was to my decision to upgrade...about 6wks...
I love amd setup but would prefer the the P4..run cooler and in FL by summer I bet my 150 fsb will need to drop down for stability
Have you seen the reports of dead Northwood 1.6s after a week of overclocking?? Lets give it another couple of weeks and see. I overclocked Celerons and P3s for years on BX/GX boards with good results. I have tried to love the AMDs, but if you need your machine to work 100% of the time, Intel is the answer. There is a reason that Compaq & Dell use Intel--- it works. Anadtech readers love to putdown these machines, but there are millions of them in business and government, crappy old P500 machines running 24/7/365 without even a CPU fan. I have personally worked on probably10 socket A boards with friends trying to overcome problems. What a pain. I built a junk computer last year with a LX chipset MB and a P300 I found in a draw--it had no problems. When AMD makes it's own chipsets again, I will give them a try. Until then I would rather pay more money then waste time on a bad MB/CPU combo.
every athlon system i have ever seen works 100% of the time. some companies use Intel for the same reason that some companies use Apples: because they always have. a friend of mine just built a 2.2 gHz northwood system, and it is really quiet (it has the a vantec cooler and with a 70mm fan on top, and 4 80mm case fans). if you can't stand fan noise, then the p4 is the way to go. he did pay through the nose, though 
.
--jacob
.--jacob
well, i just bought an MSI 645 Ultra w/ the Northwood 1.8. I'm matching that up w/ my 512 MB or 2400 Corsair ram. hope to see around 2.2 in OC. i'm not gonna push the OC thing. well, i might, cause i have an Alpha 8045 to put on that thing if it fits.
anyway. right now, i think intel is definitely the way to go.
oh btw, the northwood MSI combo above costed me 290 at Newegg.com. good price if you ask me.
anyway. right now, i think intel is definitely the way to go.
oh btw, the northwood MSI combo above costed me 290 at Newegg.com. good price if you ask me.
<<There is a reason that Compaq & Dell use Intel--- it works.>>
RickH:
Compaq uses Intel as well as AMD, so far as i know, Dell is the only major desktop computer manufacturer that doesn't use AMD.
RickH:
Compaq uses Intel as well as AMD, so far as i know, Dell is the only major desktop computer manufacturer that doesn't use AMD.
My 1.8A is at 2.38Ghz and 132FSB (P4B266, if you go to 133 and above you only have 1:1 memory, will be fixed in bio update), I'm using the AVC Sunflower cooler, and my temps are 30c idle 37c load. The northwoods run cool. If you get a good mobo and some quality ram like crucial, getting to 133FSB is not a problem, people are getting 150 FSB on air cooling alone.
If you get a 1.6, at 133FSB you'll have 2.12Ghz, stock cooling will do that, but you'd be even cooler if you get a better HSF.
If you get a 1.6, at 133FSB you'll have 2.12Ghz, stock cooling will do that, but you'd be even cooler if you get a better HSF.
I would definitely go with AMD.
I have:
AMD Athlon T-Bird 1.4GHz
Epox 8KHA+ Motherboard
Crucial 256MB PC2100 DDR RAM
Gainward GeForce3
Western Digital 40GB ATA100/7200RPM
Seagate Barricuda 40GB ATA100/7200RPM
Alpha Pal8045 Heatsink
Arctic Silver II Thermal Paste
(CPU Temp: 41C Idle, 45C under load)
(3Dmark2001: 7405)
It's really quite. I don't know why people would pay so much more money to get Pentium. Athlons can clearly outperform Pentiums for much less money. People who complain about noise and heat, go do some research. I have 3 case fans (22dBa) to keep the case temperature to about 25-28C. My friend has even quiter system. I can't even hear any noise on his computer. Both of our computers are quiter than my brother's Pentium 1.4GHz system and MUCH faster. I'm sure you can get the temperature down to like 38C idle with Athlon XP's and another 2C degrees when you use Arctic Silver III. I'm sure Pentiums are fast and stable. You won't have go through all those hardwork like Athlons, but isn't that what we want? I know I wanna go search for the best setup possible and make it a really good system. Athlons are really stable. Those of you who think Athlons crash alot, do you really think it's from the CPU??? The only reason I would consider going for Pentium is because of their RDRAM. You can proly get a dual Athlon MP chips with the ammount of money you are willing to get a Pentium system. Let me know what your final decision is, because I would like to know. ;-):Q
I have:
AMD Athlon T-Bird 1.4GHz
Epox 8KHA+ Motherboard
Crucial 256MB PC2100 DDR RAM
Gainward GeForce3
Western Digital 40GB ATA100/7200RPM
Seagate Barricuda 40GB ATA100/7200RPM
Alpha Pal8045 Heatsink
Arctic Silver II Thermal Paste
(CPU Temp: 41C Idle, 45C under load)
(3Dmark2001: 7405)
It's really quite. I don't know why people would pay so much more money to get Pentium. Athlons can clearly outperform Pentiums for much less money. People who complain about noise and heat, go do some research. I have 3 case fans (22dBa) to keep the case temperature to about 25-28C. My friend has even quiter system. I can't even hear any noise on his computer. Both of our computers are quiter than my brother's Pentium 1.4GHz system and MUCH faster. I'm sure you can get the temperature down to like 38C idle with Athlon XP's and another 2C degrees when you use Arctic Silver III. I'm sure Pentiums are fast and stable. You won't have go through all those hardwork like Athlons, but isn't that what we want? I know I wanna go search for the best setup possible and make it a really good system. Athlons are really stable. Those of you who think Athlons crash alot, do you really think it's from the CPU??? The only reason I would consider going for Pentium is because of their RDRAM. You can proly get a dual Athlon MP chips with the ammount of money you are willing to get a Pentium system. Let me know what your final decision is, because I would like to know. ;-):Q
<< I would definitely go with AMD. I have: AMD Athlon T-Bird 1.4GHz Epox 8KHA+ Motherboard Crucial 256MB PC2100 DDR RAM Gainward GeForce3 Western Digital 40GB ATA100/7200RPM Seagate Barricuda 40GB ATA100/7200RPM Alpha Pal8045 Heatsink Arctic Silver II Thermal Paste (CPU Temp: 41C Idle, 45C under load) (3Dmark2001: 7405) It's really quite. I don't know why people would pay so much more money to get Pentium. Athlons can clearly outperform Pentiums for much less money. People who complain about noise and heat, go do some research. I have 3 case fans (22dBa) to keep the case temperature to about 25-28C. My friend has even quiter system. I can't even hear any noise on his computer. Both of our computers are quiter than my brother's Pentium 1.4GHz system and MUCH faster. I'm sure you can get the temperature down to like 38C idle with Athlon XP's and another 2C degrees when you use Arctic Silver III. I'm sure Pentiums are fast and stable. You won't have go through all those hardwork like Athlons, but isn't that what we want? I know I wanna go search for the best setup possible and make it a really good system. Athlons are really stable. Those of you who think Athlons crash alot, do you really think it's from the CPU??? The only reason I would consider going for Pentium is because of their RDRAM. You can proly get a dual Athlon MP chips with the ammount of money you are willing to get a Pentium system. Let me know what your final decision is, because I would like to know. ;-):Q >>
are u a zlot or something. my god. i couldnt just ignore this.
"can clearly outperform Pentiums for much less money. " 1.6A + P4B266-C not really; if u havent noticed, 1.6 @ 2.2+
gah. i dont even want to start tearing this apart. good night. im lazy to contradict all of ur statements.
<< I would definitely go with AMD. >>
So would many people.
<< It's really quite. >>
let me finish this; simple.
<< I don't know why people would pay so much more money to get Pentium. >>
Last I checked, the 1.6A Northwood costs $145 on pricewatch. That is the 4th fastest P4 out there. In contrast, an AthlonXP 1.5 GHz costs $114 on pricewatch. I wouldn't call that "so much more" considering that's an OEM package with the AthlonXP and a retail package with the P4 on pricewatch. The retail comes with a very good heatsink/fan while with the AthlonXP, you'll have to buy a separate heatsink/fan.
1.8 GHz Northwoods cost $199 on pricewatch for the retail package. In contrast, an OEM package AthlonXP 1.53 GHz (just like the 1.8A Northwood, is the third fastest of its group) costs $138 on pricewatch. Again, considering the retail vs OEM, not that big a difference.
For the top of the line, 2.2 GHz Northwood costs $475 on pricewatch and the AthlonXP 1.67 GHz costs $254.
In conclusion, only at the top of the line model do the P4's costs "much more" than the AthlonXP's, at lower speed ratings, there is not that much difference.
<< Athlons can clearly outperform Pentiums for much less money. >>
Benchmarks says otherwise.
Anand's
Firingsquad
Tom's
Where do you see clearly outperforms? As for much less money, that was addressed above.
<< People who complain about noise and heat, go do some research. I have 3 case fans (22dBa) to keep the case temperature to about 25-28C. My friend has even quiter system. I can't even hear any noise on his computer. Both of our computers are quiter than my brother's Pentium 1.4GHz system and MUCH faster. >>
Considering the 1.4 is almost 2 years old now, congradulations, you beat it, wow. Anyway, with the same amount of research applied to a similarly focused P4 system, you can make it much quieter than a similarly configured (and performing) Athlon system. You don't even need case fans with a P4 system. Just the retail fan/heatsink which btw, is very good. And you've got yourself a very quiet and quite fast system. People who say "if you only spend a lot of time planning, you can avoid the down issues" keep forgetting how much that planning could improve the system that's already quite good.
<< I'm sure you can get the temperature down to like 38C idle with Athlon XP's and another 2C degrees when you use Arctic Silver III. I'm sure Pentiums are fast and stable. You won't have go through all those hardwork like Athlons, but isn't that what we want? >>
Not me. Work to get things better is one thing, work that could've been avoided for the same end results shows that someone has far too much spare time. If you're an enthusiast, just as much attention could be payed in putting together a P4 system, from water cooling to silent case fans to modifications, etc. without having to spend the time worrying about which Via chipset has the least issues.
<< I know I wanna go search for the best setup possible and make it a really good system. Athlons are really stable. Those of you who think Athlons crash alot, do you really think it's from the CPU??? >>
No one really claimed that. It's the entire solution that counts. And so far, single-processor Athlons don't have exactly the best array of chipsets to choose from. I don't want to spend time on something if I can avoid it with just as good end results. My CUSL2 (i815) has worked perfectly from day one, and my 440BX before that. And I have enough time to pay attention to other things, such as choosing the P3 with the right multiplier to allow maximum overclocking without going over the memory's rated speed.
<< The only reason I would consider going for Pentium is because of their RDRAM. You can proly get a dual Athlon MP chips with the ammount of money you are willing to get a Pentium system. Let me know what your final decision is, because I would like to know. ;-):Q >>
Ummm, no. 1.6A Northwood costs have been listed above and can overclock far beyond even the Athlon 1.67 GHz for less money. The 1.8A can do this with less risk of memory limitations. Be informed before you make blatantly overexaggerated or false statements. No one likes an Apple PR Wanna-be.
Well I build a few AMD comps over the last year and was quite impressed. I myself am running a p3. I was ready to jump back into the AMD scene and build one for myself when I got done with my deployment, then all of the sudden the 1.6a's come out and from what Ive seen so far you are almost guranteed to hit at least 133fsb as long as you have good memory(which really shouldnt be a problem) Now Im looking forward in getting a p4 1.6a along with a MSI Ultra 845-aru. Hope I can get as lucky as everyone else and at least hit 2.2 with it.
people, people.. Let's not get confused with P4 Woodie 1.6's. Their range of OC with "stock" HSF is between 2.2- 2.5+ Ghz with at stock Vcore or a tiny step increase. There are people who are chicken to push the 1.6's to more than 2.2 even though it'll let ya go higher. I'm saying this because I have seen too many of these incidents over at hardforum. Imagine if you put some Supercooling on those system with crazy amount of voltage, you *could* go 3.0+ Ghz on 1.6's who knows.. I didn't like any P4's.. until this. This got me impressed.
there were two things that got my attention with the pentium4. the first thing was the price and overclocking potential of the 1.6a. the second thing was seeing my friends 2.2 gHz n-wood system upclose. it is quiet, fast, super stable, and the heatsink mounting procedure rocks. my system already has the speed and stable parts down, but i would love to have the quietness and the heatsink mounting procedure that the p4 has. unless t-bred is going to come out in April, i think it will be p4 for me in the next month and a half, or so.
--jacob
--jacob
- Aug 22, 2001
- 28,446
- 20,452
- 146
<< Here is my 2 cents...the P4 o/c ed maybe faster but it has SSE2...nice
also less cooling is needed for o/cing so it will be quieter..you can probably use quieter fans that is....
I just built a Amd 1700@1650(11x150) on abit kr7a-raid..cost more than a P4 1.6a with asus p4B266..I wish I knew how close time wise the P4 northwood was to my decision to upgrade...about 6wks...
I love amd setup but would prefer the the P4..run cooler and in FL by summer I bet my 150 fsb will need to drop down for stability >>
Well said, these are my thoughts on the matter as well. I to live in FL. where unless you wish to pay enormous electric bills most of the year your O/Cing is limited due to increased room temps. For instance, I have it @72f right now but during the hotter months it'll be 78f in my computer room because the themistat is in another room and with 2 AMD systems you get the idea. Under the circumstances I believe the P4 1.6A system will cater far better to my requirements and getting rid of my noisy fans will be another plus.
This thing should be locked.
This is it period.
If you can not get a AMD system with a good motherboard in it to be stable you should not be building computers. Its the same for intel. Any motherboard can screw up the system, unfortunately since AMDs are cheap people think they can throw in <$90 boards and get a awesome system all the time, you can't. AMD, Intel, VIA, SiS, ALi chipsets are all stable, motherboards aren't.
Heat issues are stupid, the old P4s dished out more heat then athlons, and the new athlons (.13) should have less heat then the new p4s. The thinking that intel is much cooler all the time needs to disappear.
This is it period.
If you can not get a AMD system with a good motherboard in it to be stable you should not be building computers. Its the same for intel. Any motherboard can screw up the system, unfortunately since AMDs are cheap people think they can throw in <$90 boards and get a awesome system all the time, you can't. AMD, Intel, VIA, SiS, ALi chipsets are all stable, motherboards aren't.
Heat issues are stupid, the old P4s dished out more heat then athlons, and the new athlons (.13) should have less heat then the new p4s. The thinking that intel is much cooler all the time needs to disappear.
<< Heat issues are stupid, the old P4s dished out more heat then athlons, and the new athlons (.13) should have less heat then the new p4s. The thinking that intel is much cooler all the time needs to disappear. >>
Well, it's not particularly intelligent to speculate about how "things will be" in three or four months, when members need to decide what they are going to buy now. This thread discusses the current state of the industry and available processors; you can always speculate about what the future will hold, but that is not the intent of this thread.
One month ago, the Athlon was everyone's unquestioned choice for price/performance; now Intel is the leader. The price/performance lead may shift back to AMD in four months, depending on how high the Thoroughbred will clock, and how much AMD intends to charge for these processors. Intel may respond with further price cuts; it is already public knowledge that they intend to cut the price of the 2.2A (which will hit 2.7 to 3.1GHz) to $220 in May, with the 2.0A falling well below $200, while releasing a $$$ 2.4A that may clock in excess of 3.2GHz. The competition, and constant change of scenery, is what makes this all so exciting to discuss!
What is the best mobo for overclocking the 1.6A P4 with PC2100 DDR ?
Epox does not hawe any good mobo for P4 DDr ?
Thanx
Epox does not hawe any good mobo for P4 DDr ?
Thanx
I'm almost convinced by reading all posts on Northwood 1.6A for my next upgrade.
A few questions:
How does it compare to AMD XP1800+ or above in encoding video (MPEG, WMV, etc)? Have you seen any benchmark on this issue? To me, the speed of Office, business applications is non-critical. Who cares if it takes 2 sec or 2.1 sec in business application. Encoding video, 3D rendering takes hours to do. A processor's speed in perfroming these tasks is more important to me.
Does it require a huge Power supply like AMDs? Or any 300W PS will do?
What is the best Motherboard, memory to get for this CPU/
TIA,
cpliu
A few questions:
How does it compare to AMD XP1800+ or above in encoding video (MPEG, WMV, etc)? Have you seen any benchmark on this issue? To me, the speed of Office, business applications is non-critical. Who cares if it takes 2 sec or 2.1 sec in business application. Encoding video, 3D rendering takes hours to do. A processor's speed in perfroming these tasks is more important to me.
Does it require a huge Power supply like AMDs? Or any 300W PS will do?
What is the best Motherboard, memory to get for this CPU/
TIA,
cpliu
motoamd,
<< Don't AMD and Intel both now have high heat issues? or did that help Intel going to .13um? >>
Intel really got help with heat going from .18um aluminum to .13um copper. AMD will be going from a superior .18um copper process to a .13um process in about four months on the desktop, two months for notebooks. As it is now, a P4 1.6A overclocked to 2650MHz produces about the same amount of heat as a stock AMD Athlon 2000+ (1666MHz). An extra 1000MHz for the same core temperatures--that's pretty impressive, don't you think? It will be interesting to see how Thoroughbred's temperatures compare in four or five months.
CLiu,
<< How does it compare to AMD XP1800+ or above in encoding video (MPEG, WMV, etc)? Have you seen any benchmark on this issue? >>
With the right motherboard, every 1.6A should do 2.4GHz with slightly increased voltage. As you can see right here at Anand's and right here at Tomshardware, the P4 1.6A @ 2.2GHz outperforms the Athlon XP 2000+ by 7% and the 1800+ by 13% in MPEG4 encoding. Take the 1.6A up to 2.4GHz and it outperforms the XP 2000+ by 12.5%, and the 1800+ by 18%. For MP3 audio encoding, the 1.6A @ 2.4GHz outperforms the Athlon XP 2000+ by 13% and the 1800+ by 24%; it also outperforms the watercooled Athlon XP 2300+ with a 155MHz bus by 3%. Your actual P4 performance should be even better, because Tom used a base 110MHz memory bus for the 2.4GHz P4, while you will be using even faster memory.
<< Does it require a huge Power supply like AMDs? Or any 300W PS will do? What is the best Motherboard, memory to get for this CPU/ >>
300W is more than enough for the P4, although for overclocking, the more voltage you put on the 12V line, the better. As far as motherboards, people have had the best results with the Asus P4B266 and P4S333; the Abit board should also be good once they get the bugs out with a bios update.
<< Don't AMD and Intel both now have high heat issues? or did that help Intel going to .13um? >>
Intel really got help with heat going from .18um aluminum to .13um copper. AMD will be going from a superior .18um copper process to a .13um process in about four months on the desktop, two months for notebooks. As it is now, a P4 1.6A overclocked to 2650MHz produces about the same amount of heat as a stock AMD Athlon 2000+ (1666MHz). An extra 1000MHz for the same core temperatures--that's pretty impressive, don't you think? It will be interesting to see how Thoroughbred's temperatures compare in four or five months.
CLiu,
<< How does it compare to AMD XP1800+ or above in encoding video (MPEG, WMV, etc)? Have you seen any benchmark on this issue? >>
With the right motherboard, every 1.6A should do 2.4GHz with slightly increased voltage. As you can see right here at Anand's and right here at Tomshardware, the P4 1.6A @ 2.2GHz outperforms the Athlon XP 2000+ by 7% and the 1800+ by 13% in MPEG4 encoding. Take the 1.6A up to 2.4GHz and it outperforms the XP 2000+ by 12.5%, and the 1800+ by 18%. For MP3 audio encoding, the 1.6A @ 2.4GHz outperforms the Athlon XP 2000+ by 13% and the 1800+ by 24%; it also outperforms the watercooled Athlon XP 2300+ with a 155MHz bus by 3%. Your actual P4 performance should be even better, because Tom used a base 110MHz memory bus for the 2.4GHz P4, while you will be using even faster memory.
<< Does it require a huge Power supply like AMDs? Or any 300W PS will do? What is the best Motherboard, memory to get for this CPU/ >>
300W is more than enough for the P4, although for overclocking, the more voltage you put on the 12V line, the better. As far as motherboards, people have had the best results with the Asus P4B266 and P4S333; the Abit board should also be good once they get the bugs out with a bios update.
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