AMD says new 'Shanghai' chip is ready to go

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bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
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Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I agree. The whole "DDR3 only" thing with i7 is going to drive up system cost by another $150-$300 bucks for jsut about everyone who doesn't have a DDR3 system already.

Using lowest prices from Newegg:

3GB (3 x 1GB) DDR3-1333 costs $105
6GB (3 x 2GB) DDR3-1333 costs $204

4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2-800 costs $66
4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2-1066 costs $88

That's hardly a $150 - $300 difference, more like $50 - $100. Not to mention DDR3 prices should continue to drop in the coming months whereas DDR2 prices have effectively 'bottomed out'.

Plus the mobo cost, it'll be high for 6-9 months because the LGA1366 market volume itself will be paltry low. No volume manufacturing to offset the costs of those spiffy 8-layer PCB mobos.

LGA1366 is targeted at high end / enthusiasts. It's actually not that expensive if you compare it to existing high end platforms. X58 mobos start from $300, maybe $350 - $400 for a top end model. A decent X48 mobo costs $250, top end models cost $300+. At most, we're looking at a $50 - $100 difference, and you get both CF and SLI support with X58 - check out how much a top end 790i mobo costs. ;)

And then you have the cost of the i7 itself...$300 for the cheapest (give or take).

Which gives far better multi-threading performance (20 - 50%) and equivalent or better single-threaded performance than a $330 Q9550.

And for all that you do get an absolute bandwidth monster...you aren't spending the money and getting nothing in return, but the challenge is going to be finding applications that run like dogs on existing (and much cheaper) DDR2-based Yorkfield and upcoming Deneb platforms.

Agreed, everyone should consider carefully whether their usage will benefit from Nehalem before buying. For example, most gamers would be best served with an E0 stepping C2D @ 4.5GHz until games become more multi-threaded.

i7 has about as much market potential (for the next 6-9 months) as Skulltrail has enjoyed for the past 6 months. Spendy ram (FBDIMM vs DDR3) and 8 threads that have access to loads of bandwidth but no killer apps demanding it. So the world will look with amazement, as we did with Skulltrail, and we'll go about our business of buying Yorkie's and Deneb's. IMO.

I respect you opinions a lot IDC but that is seriously laughable. As much market potential as Skulltrail due to DDR3 and lack of killer MT apps?! Please. Check above where I compared DDR2 to DDR3 prices, the difference is not nearly as great as it was 6 months ago, and is shrinking by the day. Not to mention Skulltrail CPUs costs $1500, a $300 i7 920 will provide equivalent or better performance in most cases.

several problems here:

1 is that you're comparing 2gb sticks of ddr2 to 1gb sticks of ddr3 for cost. compare 3x1gb ddr3 to 2x1gb ddr2 (as both of those are certainly the bare minimum that an enthusiast would consider atm) and you get closer to $100 minimum difference.

Another issue is that while you do have sli with x58, the cheaper ($300-ish) mobos don't have the nforce 200 on them and thus are only good for 2 cards. higher end sli mobos will be a LOT more expensive but will still cater to nvidia enthusiasts, leaving a market for either 890i mobos or x58's with nforce 200's on them.

Finally, nehalem is not arriving during a booming economy. Most of us these days don't mind spending an extra couple hundred to get a q9450 or q9550 instead of an e8400, say, but how many people will be unaffected by the current economic problems in the next few months? I believe that the VAST majority of previously price-insensitive purchasers such as myself and IDK, will think twice before spending $300-500 more for a complete system upgrade unless we really see a significant jump in performance for our specific apps. I was completely on the nehalem bandwagon a couple of months ago but now I'm probably going to just sit this round out. If I didn't already have a good system I'd probably buy a penryn system now or maybe wait a few months and compare prices on the 45nm amd systems with penryn, but I'd certainly NOT blow $1000+ a new nehalem.
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
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Originally posted by: bryanW1995
several problems here:

1 is that you're comparing 2gb sticks of ddr2 to 1gb sticks of ddr3 for cost. compare 3x1gb ddr3 to 2x1gb ddr2 (as both of those are certainly the bare minimum that an enthusiast would consider atm) and you get closer to $100 minimum difference.

Thats because Vista needs more than 2GB to perform optimally. I'm talking about a fairly high end system here (something comparable to Nehalem!), nobody is going to use 2GB of RAM on a high end build, especially DDR2 which is so cheap.

But if you really want to compare prices at the 2GB level, we're looking at $30 for 2GB DDR2-800 Kingston ValueRAM kits, compared to $50 (after MIR) for 2GB DDR3-1333 OCZ Reapers. (again, using Newegg prices)

Btw, I know I'm limiting Nehalem to 'only' dual channel DDR3... but it makes virtually no difference compared to tri-channel: http://img253.imageshack.us/im...115everestthumbiz7.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/im...6265/cod4triplelz1.jpg

In fact one could argue that 4GB of dual channel DDR3 is the 'optimal' balance between RAM capacity and price/performance for Nehalem.

Another issue is that while you do have sli with x58, the cheaper ($300-ish) mobos don't have the nforce 200 on them and thus are only good for 2 cards. higher end sli mobos will be a LOT more expensive but will still cater to nvidia enthusiasts, leaving a market for either 890i mobos or x58's with nforce 200's on them.

Non NF200 equipped mobos can still do 3 way SLI, but at 16x/8x/8x. Frankly I find dual SLI/CF more than sufficient for even 2560 x 1600 gaming, the scaling on the 3rd GPU is generally quite poor, due partly to overhead issues and CPU bottlenecking:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3183&p=4
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
How did this thread get to be about Nehalem? I read this to find out about the developments of Deneb. I get my Nehalem information here.

I am getting impatient waiting around for these two processors to be released. I really want to know how they perform! Maybe I will take a break from Anandtech forums for a few weeks, and when I come back more info will be available :)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: Martimus
Maybe I will take a break from Anandtech forums for a few weeks, and when I come back more info will be available :)

I'm thinking the same thing. All we are getting is rehashed weblinks on already disproven (because of outdated CPU stepping) leaked benchmarks but the rhetoric is hotting up.

I'm thinking to enjoy what's left of these last warm Autumn days and I'll be seeing you fine folks in a month or so when we got some real data to beat our thinly veiled biases against ;)
 

nerp

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,865
105
106
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Martimus
Maybe I will take a break from Anandtech forums for a few weeks, and when I come back more info will be available :)

I'm thinking the same thing. All we are getting is rehashed weblinks on already disproven (because of outdated CPU stepping) leaked benchmarks but the rhetoric is hotting up.

I'm thinking to enjoy what's left of these last warm Autumn days and I'll be seeing you fine folks in a month or so when we got some real data to beat our thinly veiled biases against ;)

C'mon bro. At least lurk and chime in to correct incorrect information. A line or two will do. We don't need your epic explanations every post! :)

 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Martimus
Maybe I will take a break from Anandtech forums for a few weeks, and when I come back more info will be available :)

I'm thinking the same thing. All we are getting is rehashed weblinks on already disproven (because of outdated CPU stepping) leaked benchmarks but the rhetoric is hotting up.

I'm thinking to enjoy what's left of these last warm Autumn days and I'll be seeing you fine folks in a month or so when we got some real data to beat our thinly veiled biases against ;)

That isn't a bad idea. Maybe I will take a week off of work, and go on a cruise. It is still warm, and it wouldn't cost too much to drive to NY and go from there. Plus, I won't have to be at work during the break ... this is sounding like a better idea the more I think about it.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,787
136
How did this thread get to be about Nehalem? I read this to find out about the developments of Deneb. I get my Nehalem information here.

"Topic Summary: Shanghai will outperform Barcelona by about 20 percent"

We aren't really off topic.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
How did this thread get to be about Nehalem? I read this to find out about the developments of Deneb. I get my Nehalem information here.

"Topic Summary: Shanghai will outperform Barcelona by about 20 percent"

We aren't really off topic.

What does Shanghai or Barcelona have to do with Nehalem?
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
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Originally posted by: Martimus
What does Shanghai or Barcelona have to do with Nehalem?

Well, apart from the fact Shanghai will be the direct competitor to Nehalem... I guess not much. ;)

 

BLaber

Member
Jun 23, 2008
184
0
0
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: Martimus
What does Shanghai or Barcelona have to do with Nehalem?

Well, apart from the fact Shanghai will be the direct competitor to Nehalem... I guess not much. ;)

That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: BLaber
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: Martimus
What does Shanghai or Barcelona have to do with Nehalem?

Well, apart from the fact Shanghai will be the direct competitor to Nehalem... I guess not much. ;)

That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p

I forget where, but there actually is an AMD rep quoted as saying that Shanghai/Deneb is intended to solely compete with Harpertown/Yorkfield and not Nehalem.

Now if Nehalem doesn't dominate Yorkfield on the stuff which isn't >4 threaded then there could very well be some Deneb performance overlap in the apps of interest to a good deal many of us here in the forums.
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
0
Originally posted by: BLaber
That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p

LOL, thats just enthusiasts stating the obvious, I seriously doubt AMD will come out and say 'our chip is designed to compete against Intel's last gen products' - thats seriously bad PR. :p
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: BLaber
That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p

LOL, thats just enthusiasts stating the obvious, I seriously doubt AMD will come out and say 'our chip is designed to compete against Intel's last gen products' - thats seriously bad PR. :p

While they are referencing Shanghai and Harpertown in the following quote and link, it seems well within reason to extend the context of the quote to include Deneb and Yorkfield:

For all its strengths, those of you hoping Shanghai will vault Penryn entirely and drop squarely into Nehalem territory may well be disappointed.

AMD told Ars this week that Shanghai is explicitly and directly targeted at Intel's quad-core, Penryn-based Harpertown processor.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...hanghai-45nm-cpus.html
 

BLaber

Member
Jun 23, 2008
184
0
0
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: BLaber
That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p

LOL, thats just enthusiasts stating the obvious, I seriously doubt AMD will come out and say 'our chip is designed to compete against Intel's last gen products' - thats seriously bad PR. :p

Lol what according to you is BAD PR is actually AMD telling truth about Shanghai and Deneb and it would we foolish for AMD to do otherwise and spoil their image further. :laugh:
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
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OK I stand corrected, yet I'm still bemused how they can claim such massive gains in performance, yet only target the Harpertowns in server. Lets remember AMD is more competitive on the server front than desktop. If there really is a 35% improvement over Barcelona it should EASILY beat any Penryn based CPU, especially in server workloads, and even desktop - in fact with such improvements it should rival Nehalem, but clearly AMD knows it will fall short, according to that article by IDK.
 

BLaber

Member
Jun 23, 2008
184
0
0
Originally posted by: harpoon84
OK I stand corrected, yet I'm still bemused how they can claim such massive gains in performance, yet only target the Harpertowns in server. Lets remember AMD is more competitive on the server front than desktop. If there really is a 35% improvement over Barcelona it should EASILY beat any Penryn based CPU, especially in server workloads, and even desktop - in fact with such improvements it should rival Nehalem, but clearly AMD knows it will fall short, according to that article by IDK.

Well I hope Deneb does compete against Nehalem (wish full thinking) , thought it wasn't meant to accroding to AMD. :thumbsup:
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
0
Originally posted by: BLaber
Well I hope Deneb does compete against Nehalem (wish full thinking) , thought it wasn't meant to accroding to AMD. :thumbsup:

Well something doesn't add up, either the 35% figure is exaggerated or AMD knows something about Nehalem that we don't.

Anyway its no use speculating really, it'll all become clearer soon enough. :)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: BLaber
Well I hope Deneb does compete against Nehalem (wish full thinking) , thought it wasn't meant to accroding to AMD. :thumbsup:

Well something doesn't add up, either the 35% figure is exaggerated or AMD knows something about Nehalem that we don't.

Anyway its no use speculating really, it'll all become clearer soon enough. :)

We can't rule out sandbagging. Maybe the 35% is real but the Harpertown comments are meant to set expectations low for the usual marketing reasons.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: BLaber
Well I hope Deneb does compete against Nehalem (wish full thinking) , thought it wasn't meant to accroding to AMD. :thumbsup:

Well something doesn't add up, either the 35% figure is exaggerated or AMD knows something about Nehalem that we don't.

Anyway its no use speculating really, it'll all become clearer soon enough. :)

We can't rule out sandbagging. Maybe the 35% is real but the Harpertown comments are meant to set expectations low for the usual marketing reasons.

I guess. That is what happened with their most recent video cards. They were comparing them to the 9800 GTX and the 8800 GT before they were released, but they were actually very competitive with the new nVidia GPU's instead. Of course these are apples and oranges, so the comparison is pretty weak. I personally have no expectations of Deneb competing with Nehalem (Or Shanghai competing on the server side), but I have already penciled in a competitor for the 9450 and 9550 for AMD. (Darn these false hopes! My future computer building plan is dependent on a cheaper 9550 or Deneb equivalent.) I hope I am right, and I feel it is entirely reasonable, but it wouldn't surprise me to be disappointed. I would be surprised if they do much better than that though.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: BLaber
That is not correct , AMD said Shanghai was not meant to compete with Nehalem but with Penryn or Yorkfield. :p

LOL, thats just enthusiasts stating the obvious, I seriously doubt AMD will come out and say 'our chip is designed to compete against Intel's last gen products' - thats seriously bad PR. :p

While they are referencing Shanghai and Harpertown in the following quote and link, it seems well within reason to extend the context of the quote to include Deneb and Yorkfield:

For all its strengths, those of you hoping Shanghai will vault Penryn entirely and drop squarely into Nehalem territory may well be disappointed.

AMD told Ars this week that Shanghai is explicitly and directly targeted at Intel's quad-core, Penryn-based Harpertown processor.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...hanghai-45nm-cpus.html

it is common knowledge that amd is about 18 mos behind intel right now. the shanghai successor COULD be competitive with nehalem, just like the phenom successor COULD be competitive with yorkfield.

@martimus: I think that deneb/shanhai being competitive with Q9550 is probably a best-case scenario :( I know he's gone now, but I just have to say it: DAMN YOU HECTOR RUIZ!!!
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
@martimus: I think that deneb/shanhai being competitive with Q9550 is probably a best-case scenario :( I know he's gone now, but I just have to say it: DAMN YOU HECTOR RUIZ!!!

We'll see. I have the feeling that AMD is back on their feet this round after all the adjustment with the purchase of ATI. That said, I expect them to be ~1 year behind, so I would hope their new chips are competitive with Yorkfield, or better since they don't have a new architecture scheduled for quite awhile after this. Just thinking of the long term I don't feel good about AMD 2 years down the road. But, maybe Bulldozer is on schedule, even though it seems to have disappeared from their roadmap. Who knows anyway?

I notice that I am rambling now. Sorry about that. Time to go to bed.
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
0
Its possible that a 3GHz Deneb will match a Q9550, in fact I'm quite convinced it will. If the preview numbers hold true, then Deneb is about equal to Kentsfield per clock. So putting a 3GHz Kentsfield / Deneb against a 2.83GHz Yorkfield, it should be a very even contest.

So just like today, AMD won't have the outright performance lead but it should have something good to compete in the mainstream market.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
I'm not sure if this was answered already, but I didn't see it as I skimmed the last few pages. Does anyone know if AMD is going to get the IMC/L3 speed up on Denab?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
I'm not sure if this was answered already, but I didn't see it as I skimmed the last few pages. Does anyone know if AMD is going to get the IMC/L3 speed up on Denab?

No you didn't miss it, there has been surprising little leaked about the Shanghai/Deneb core. Other than cache size, not much else has been leaked about the changes in the L3$.

One would presume the clockspeed has been increased, but then again it was never really clear why the L3$ clockspeed on Barcelona/Phenom was so much slower than the logic cores.

So it's pretty much an open mic for speculation on what changes AMD has made and to what extent the changes play a role in the AMD stated 20% IPC increase.