AMD Ryzen 3000 Builders Thread

[DrMrLordX]

I have no idea why they would need X590.

@B-Riz

By the time mobo manufacturers started getting rid of ISA cards, it was a long time in coming. The last ISA card I ever got was my Ensoniq Soundscape Elite. I replaced it with an AudioPCI on my k6-233 machine in '97 (at the time, there were still people buying ISA Soundblasters and such). It took awhile to get rid of that horrid old slot and embrace PCI for everything else.

AGP mostly co-existed with PCI, and it wasn't necessarily expensive to implement either (that I recall), so it didn't produce a lot of negativity. The big difference between pre-AGP and post-AGP is that 3D accelerators in the pre-AGP world were often standalone cards. So you had to have a Voodoo2 and a Matrox Millenium, for example. AGP cards were almost entirely 2d+3d accelerators which finally came into their own once AGP became prevalent. I think a lot of people liked only having to buy one graphics card and not wind up with something like an early Riva 128 or Voodoo Rush in the process.

PCIe 4.0 isn't offering much else besides more bandwidth and more power demands.

 

[Tup3x]

X570 is likely a quick ghetto mod because there really isn't any other way to get PCI-E 4 support than reuse the io chip. I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a "proper" chipset next year (or something from Asmedia). X590 could be a replacement rather than upgrade. My gut tells me to avoid first generation PCI-E 4 mobos.

 

[jackstar7]

Rumors abound: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/x590-chipset-x570-amd-bios,39660.html

 

[DrMrLordX]

X570 is likely a quick ghetto mod because there really isn't any other way to get PCI-E 4 support than reuse the io chip. I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a "proper" chipset next year (or something from Asmedia). X590 could be a replacement rather than upgrade. My gut tells me to avoid first generation PCI-E 4 mobos.

There's more to X570 than just PCIe 4.0 . AMD has apparently mandated specific RAM trace topology ("daisy chain" over "T-topology"), for example.

 

[JDG1980]

Frankly, all this hate on PCIE 4 is strange; did everyone complain when ISA was going away and PCI was coming in? Or PCI disappearing and AGP coming in? Or AGP disappearing and PCIE coming in?

The difference is that there were real benefits for those transitions. As of right now, it seems that PCIe 4.0 is a solution looking for a problem - at least with regards to anything short of extremely demanding professional applications. Video cards don't need it; even the RTX 2080 Ti performs 97-98% as well with PCIe 3.0 x8 compared to x16, so it's clear that the bus is not currently a bottleneck for them. (And SLI/Crossfire is largely a thing of the past now.) The best SSDs can maybe saturate a x4 slot, barely; the performance gains from PCIe 4.0 with a single drive are going to be small.

In exhange for virtually non-existent real-world performance gains, we now have to put up with the noise and unreliability of a chipset fan. That is the primary reason why X570 is being panned.

 

[UsandThem]

The difference is that there were real benefits for those transitions. As of right now, it seems that PCIe 4.0 is a solution looking for a problem - at least with regards to anything short of extremely demanding professional applications. Video cards don't need it; even the RTX 2080 Ti performs 97-98% as well with PCIe 3.0 x8 compared to x16, so it's clear that the bus is not currently a bottleneck for them. (And SLI/Crossfire is largely a thing of the past now.) The best SSDs can maybe saturate a x4 slot, barely; the performance gains from PCIe 4.0 with a single drive are going to be small.

In exhange for virtually non-existent real-world performance gains, we now have to put up with the noise and unreliability of a chipset fan. That is the primary reason why X570 is being panned.

I don't think having PCIe 4.0 on the motherboard was for the GPU's benefit at this point in time. To me, and from what I read about the the X570 chipset's high power consumption, was for the benefit of the upcoming NMVe drives. The current top-of-the-line NVMe drives have already pretty much tapped out what PCIe 3.0 can give them.

 

[B-Riz]

I have no idea why they would need X590.

@B-Riz

By the time mobo manufacturers started getting rid of ISA cards, it was a long time in coming. The last ISA card I ever got was my Ensoniq Soundscape Elite. I replaced it with an AudioPCI on my k6-233 machine in '97 (at the time, there were still people buying ISA Soundblasters and such). It took awhile to get rid of that horrid old slot and embrace PCI for everything else.

AGP mostly co-existed with PCI, and it wasn't necessarily expensive to implement either (that I recall), so it didn't produce a lot of negativity. The big difference between pre-AGP and post-AGP is that 3D accelerators in the pre-AGP world were often standalone cards. So you had to have a Voodoo2 and a Matrox Millenium, for example. AGP cards were almost entirely 2d+3d accelerators which finally came into their own once AGP became prevalent. I think a lot of people liked only having to buy one graphics card and not wind up with something like an early Riva 128 or Voodoo Rush in the process.

PCIe 4.0 isn't offering much else besides more bandwidth and more power demands.

Yes, other new buses were not as disruptive as this, but, technology changes in fits and spurts.

Many have been critical of something we actually know very little about right now; it may seem excessive and a money grab now, but what of the future?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I imagine there is a physical layout component / additional design considerations that had to be implemented to run the high frequency memory that cannot be back ported to an already made board.

A good X570 board costs what it costs for a reason; human hours spent developing and testing still have to be paid for.

I *could* see better memory support with Zen2 on lower boards, but that would be because the chip has a new memory controller on it.

Frankly, all this hate on PCIE 4 is strange; did everyone complain when ISA was going away and PCI was coming in? Or PCI disappearing and AGP coming in? Or AGP disappearing and PCIE coming in?

Like, so many people here are angry about technological progress and the cost associated with it now.

A mid to high end PC has never ever ever been cheap; let's all go back and re-calculate the 2019 dollars costs of 1980's Apple computers / 8088 computers.

No pcie 4 hate here, just not sure it’s atm the moment it’s worth the extra drag.
$40-60 extra cost
Chipset fan
extra features I’ll likely never use
More heat & things to break

I’d love a pcie 4 board just not sure I want all the other stuff.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

X590? We have another tier ?

My personal guess is this will be the HEDT board

 

[B-Riz]

No pcie 4 hate here, just not sure it’s atm the moment it’s worth the extra drag.
$40-60 extra cost
Chipset fan
extra features I’ll likely never use
More heat & things to break

I’d love a pcie 4 board just not sure I want all the other stuff.

Yeah, I understand, not lambasting your thoughts.

I am excited for the new features, but I *know* I am paying an early adopter tax for all of this.

Honestly, I am excited about OC on a 3600 / 3600X / 3700X at some point, after the fun has been had with the 3900X.

 

[Snarf Snarf]

The other option is seeing if I can get sound out to an external headphone amp without leaving it as basic 2 channel, having sound in games cut hard from one ear to the other is really jarring .

You might be able to use the virtual processing from an on board audio chipset or sound card while passing through the signal to a better amp or DAC using TOSLINK S/PDIF (I used to do this before switching to a USB DAC) to keep the surround emulation but with better fidelity. That kind of combo device is likely to cost you over $200 (Topping DX3 Pro comes to mind).

I'm kind of in the same boat, I love these second and third from top of the stack motherboards but almost all of them include some sort of DAC that I have no interest in because I run everything through external HiFi gear.

I'm very intently waiting on reviews for the Aorus Master and Ultra to compare to the ASUS Hero board to see which one is eventually going to be mine with the 3900x.

 

[Adul]

I thought this was a build thread?

I am going to be replacement my 2700x and x470 prime mb with a 3900x and not sure what MB yet. Leaning toward MSI at this point. I will gift my old CPU and MB to my cousins kid who is going to MIT and a crapy PC as it is.

 

[William Gaatjes]

The difference is that there were real benefits for those transitions. As of right now, it seems that PCIe 4.0 is a solution looking for a problem - at least with regards to anything short of extremely demanding professional applications. Video cards don't need it; even the RTX 2080 Ti performs 97-98% as well with PCIe 3.0 x8 compared to x16, so it's clear that the bus is not currently a bottleneck for them. (And SLI/Crossfire is largely a thing of the past now.) The best SSDs can maybe saturate a x4 slot, barely; the performance gains from PCIe 4.0 with a single drive are going to be small.

In exhange for virtually non-existent real-world performance gains, we now have to put up with the noise and unreliability of a chipset fan. That is the primary reason why X570 is being panned.

Well, PCIe 4.0 is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0.
It kind of defeats the purpose but at least Current GFX cards that are not PCIe 4 can be used. The same goes for SSD.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I am going to be replacement my 2700x and x470 prime mb with a 3900x and not sure what MB yet. Leaning toward MSI at this point.

Not sure what to think about MSI's offerings. #1 plus so far is that they've gone out of their way to mitigate fan noise from the chipset without using a funky solution like a large aluminum plate. Also, their top-end board has a 14+4 config which nobody else has - not even Gigabyte. Those two extra phases in the secondary might not count for much.

 

[IEC]

Not sure what to think about MSI's offerings. #1 plus so far is that they've gone out of their way to mitigate fan noise from the chipset without using a funky solution like a large aluminum plate. Also, their top-end board has a 14+4 config which nobody else has - not even Gigabyte. Those two extra phases in the secondary might not count for much.

It's actually a doubled configuration for the vCore phases, but if they implemented it properly it should be comparable to the Aorus Extreme. Either way, massive overkill. Especially the 4x 70A on the SOC phases, LOL. Which per MSI (via Buildzoid) can help with overclocking <redacted> but if history is any indication you probably don't need more than 2 phases on the SOC. I would be very surprised if the massively overkill SOC VRMs made a substantial difference.

Now as far as memory overclocking, MSI in my estimation had the best memory compatibility overall since the 1st gen Ryzen days. I was able to hit 3600MHz DDR4 on a $50 MSI B350 mATX motherboard. Every memory kit I own worked without complaint at XMP settings in that board, now that I think about it. Their top-end X570 board has a beefy 8-layer PCB so it will be interesting to see how memory clocks on it.

MSI's vcore VRMs on the other hand were definitely meh with the X370/B350 generation (required active airflow in some cases), but they beefed it up considerably with X470/B450. X570 is looking like another step up, but we'll have to wait for reviews to see what the sweet spot is as far as VRM capability required for overclocking.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Not sure what CPU I'll be getting but for the RAM it'll effeminately be 3733 cl17. The board will be an X570 but what I don't know. It seems these are always the trickiest to decide on due to what features are wanted vs what the board has. Rarely will one board have everything I'd like on it.

 

[CHADBOGA]

A mid to high end PC has never ever ever been cheap; let's all go back and re-calculate the 2019 dollars costs of 1980's Apple computers / 8088 computers.

Why do we have to go back 35 years, when 5 years will do?

There is no justification for going back 35 years.

 

[Topweasel]

Why do we have to go back 35 years, when 5 years will do?

There is no justification for going back 35 years.

But if you go back 8-10 they weren't that bad a Phenom II or Core 2 Quad and a top end video card and you got a highend machine for around 1500 or less. Heck even 5 years ago it wasn't to bad. But as HDET pulled away from the 4 cores 16 lanes of the i7's that they started to go back up again.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It's actually a doubled configuration for the vCore phases, but if they implemented it properly it should be comparable to the Aorus Extreme.

Only difference is frequency response, which may make a difference in extreme OC situations where even slight voltage dips or ripple causes a crash. Shouldn't be a big deal even for most high-end systems.

Either way, massive overkill. Especially the 4x 70A on the SOC phases, LOL.

Exactly. How much power does the RAM need? Not that much.

Now as far as memory overclocking, MSI in my estimation had the best memory compatibility overall since the 1st gen Ryzen days. I was able to hit 3600MHz DDR4 on a $50 MSI B350 mATX motherboard. Every memory kit I own worked without complaint at XMP settings in that board, now that I think about it. Their top-end X570 board has a beefy 8-layer PCB so it will be interesting to see how memory clocks on it.

MSI's vcore VRMs on the other hand were definitely meh with the X370/B350 generation (required active airflow in some cases), but they beefed it up considerably with X470/B450. X570 is looking like another step up, but we'll have to wait for reviews to see what the sweet spot is as far as VRM capability required for overclocking.

I've heard MSI has most of the mem overclock championships, followed by Asus. I've avoided MSI for a long while thanks to their VRMs. This generation, it seems like they've at least got a few offerings with proper VRM configs. Combine that with their mem overclocking history and their FROZR tech and you may have a winner.

 

[B-Riz]

Why do we have to go back 35 years, when 5 years will do?

There is no justification for going back 35 years.

Because everything goes in cycles, and the expensive start to true PC's eventually got cheaper.

This is a paradigm shift again methinks, and early adopters will pay more.

 

[B-Riz]

Ballistix Sport LT 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model BLS2K16G4D32AESB

https://www.newegg.com/ballistix-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820164128


On sale for $134 after coupon, getting another kit to try out OC on 2700X, the first one is on the 8700K system (have not played with RAM OC on the Intel system though).

 

[CHADBOGA]

Because everything goes in cycles, and the expensive start to true PC's eventually got cheaper.

This is a paradigm shift again methinks, and early adopters will pay more.

How clear is it that there will be only $600 motherboards with x570?

It seems like in the last week or so, that there have been announcements of a number of upcoming $250 x570 motherboards.

So is this all overblown anyway?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

How clear is it that there will be only $600 motherboards with x570?

It seems like in the last week or so, that there have been announcements of a number of upcoming $250 x570 motherboards.

So is this all overblown anyway?

Seems like there won’t be many less than $150, there will be some around $200, more around $250 and a bunch $250+

Personally I don’t think the high end market is big enough for this but we will see.

 

[Topweasel]

Seems like there won’t be many less than $150, there will be some around $200, more around $250 and a bunch $250+

Personally I don’t think the high end market is big enough for this but we will see.

It's a good point. This is the first time Intel won't have an alternate enthusiast platform released in the same year. So the motherboard manufacturers are looking at Zen 2 performance and basically hoping not to lose those high margin retail board sales. That's part of the reason they are so gun ho on x570. But the fact is AMD just doesn't sell a decent fraction of the parts that Intel does. Its going to increase a lot this gen. But I doubt the market for AMD based enthusiast priced retail boards is going to be large enough for 50+ different boards.

 

[inf64]

How clear is it that there will be only $600 motherboards with x570?

It seems like in the last week or so, that there have been announcements of a number of upcoming $250 x570 motherboards.

So is this all overblown anyway?

With all the rumors of X590 I think we might get "OK" priced good built X570 boards. There will be some outliers that will cost north of 600 USD but that's OK.