Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

[izaic3]

Alright, so we've had some leaks so far. I don't know if any of it's been confirmed yet, as it's pretty early, but here is what I've surmised so far (massive grain of salt of course):

• Zen 3 "enhanced"
• DDR5 and LPDDR5 support
• PCIE4
• 6nm
• CVML
• Navi 2/RDNA/RDNA 2
• 12 CU
• Socket FP7/AM5
• Possible USB4
• 2021(unlikely) -2022 (more likely) release date

If if turns out to have RDNA 2 and 12 CU, I could see iGPU performance potentially almost doubling over Cezanne.

If I've made any mistakes or gotten anything wrong, please let me know. I'd also love to hear more knowledgeable people weigh in on their expectations.

 

[ahimsa42]

Because you'll be even more bandwidth limited unless you pony up for really expensive DDR5.

some people think that the DDR5 will not be much more expensive than DDR4 but it will likely come with a premium when it is first available but may not be more than 10-20% more per GB. Moores Law is Dead mentions this in a recent youtube video.

 

[mikk]

i don't know-i currently have 8GB and will likely go with 16GB when i upgrade to rembrandt in 2022. it seems to be the sweet spot as far as price/performance-especially since 1080p is just fine for my needs.

The problem is bandwidth if the MSI test is accurate. 2x8GB DDR5 has a ~20% lower bandwidth compared to 2x16GB DDR5: https://www.msi.com/blog/a-closer-look-at-ddr5-benchmarks-with-intels-Alder-lake-cpus

 

[scineram]

I think Rembrandt will be a pleasant surprise, just based on the fact that it is a 6nm design and AMD already over-delivered on their first 6nm design - MI250 datacenter GPU.

Also, there are rumors that Navi33 will be be doing extremely well on 6nm...

Still Zen 3 with only 16MB L3. Alder Lake will destroy it except in GPU.

 

[ahimsa42]

Still Zen 3 with only 16MB L3. Alder Lake will destroy it except in GPU.

most people buy an APU for the iGPU anyway though so this is a moot point

 

[Harry_Wild]

I buy combo function chips for their bargain price & setup. The AMD igp is quite good for all things that I do. I do internet surfing, YouTube! videos and watching streaming content! Waiting for AMD 5600G or 5700G to come down in $$.

 

[andermans]

most people buy an APU for the iGPU anyway though so this is a moot point

I'd argue most people would look at primarily the CPU. If they want good gaming performance they typically take a laptop with a discrete GPU. I think only having Zen3 and having less cores is a significant risk in the mobile segment for AMD.

 

[ahimsa42]

I'd argue most people would look at primarily the CPU. If they want good gaming performance they typically take a laptop with a discrete GPU. I think only having Zen3 and having less cores is a significant risk in the mobile segment for AMD.

depends on the games- even my 4500U will play a great deal of modern games at a decent framerate. rembrandt will be a significant increase over current igup's and will allow people to play even more games without having the extra cost & power draw of a DCG.

 

[uzzi38]

I'd argue most people would look at primarily the CPU. If they want good gaming performance they typically take a laptop with a discrete GPU. I think only having Zen3 and having less cores is a significant risk in the mobile segment for AMD.

For the gaming laptop market sure.

Think and lights exist though, and they're significantly larger market.

 

[ahimsa42]

For the gaming laptop market sure.

Think and lights exist though, and they're significantly larger market.

and like i said, depending on the games a thin & light can be just fine for most games-in fact for the games i play i will even very likely go with a 6800U instead of an H just so i can get a thin & light laptop instead of a heavier, hotter, more power hungry unit.

 

[Thibsie]

Mmmm wait for Rembrandt or but Cézanne right now... Dunno, really....

 

[uzzi38]

and like i said, depending on the games a thin & light can be just fine for most games-in fact for the games i play i will even very likely go with a 6800U instead of an H just so i can get a thin & light laptop instead of a heavier, hotter, more power hungry unit.

What I've always been interested in is something like the Matebook 15. Large 90WHr+ battery, decent MT performance with a 35-45W sustained CPU/APU and a great screen. Ideally with no GPU for even better battery life

Rembrandt looks very, very, very nice for that kind of device.

 

[Joe NYC]

most people buy an APU for the iGPU anyway though so this is a moot point

It is going to be a competitive situation. For Alder Lake to match graphics performance of Rembrandt, it would need an external dGPU, which would tip the scale of power efficiency to Rembrandt.

But it is possible that the high end ADL will outperform Rembrandt in pure CPU test, but we will see about power efficiency...

 

[ahimsa42]

Mmmm wait for Rembrandt or but Cézanne right now... Dunno, really....

i would say wait for rembrandt. it should not be too much longer & the greatly increased performance will make it worth while imo.

 

[ahimsa42]

It is going to be a competitive situation. For Alder Lake to match graphics performance of Rembrandt, it would need an external dGPU, which would tip the scale of power efficiency to Rembrandt.

But it is possible that the high end ADL will outperform Rembrandt in pure CPU test, but we will see about power efficiency...

perhaps but i think most people get too caught up in the numbers sometimes. how many people are really going to be able to tell the difference in them in real world performance? it's like the whole FPS thing. unless they are competing online, without a counter can they really see the difference between a game at 60fps & 120 fps? also, how much is ADL going to cost compared to RMB?

 

[Thibsie]

I prefer 13" or max 14": smaller, lighter. CPU choice is more limited though.

 

[Joe NYC]

perhaps but i think most people get too caught up in the numbers sometimes. how many people are really going to be able to tell the difference in them in real world performance? it's like the whole FPS thing. unless they are competing online, without a counter can they really see the difference between a game at 60fps & 120 fps? also, how much is ADL going to cost compared to RMB?

If you want to play any games, the biggest difference between playable and unplayable is on the low end and iGPU

Once you get to certain "escape" velocity, which I would say is at around AMD 6600 XT GPU, you can pretty much play everything, if you fiddle with the settings.

In other words, the difference between 8 FPS and 30 FPS is a difference between playable and unplayable. Difference between 60 FPS and 120 FPS is almost academic.

So between ADL and Rembrandt, the GPU performance difference is where the impact is the greatest.

 

[Spicy]

most people buy an APU for the iGPU anyway though so this is a moot point

I'd argue most people would look at primarily the CPU. If they want good gaming performance they typically take a laptop with a discrete GPU. I think only having Zen3 and having less cores is a significant risk in the mobile segment for AMD.

Depends if it's for laptop or minipc (x000U/H) or for desktop (x000G)

 

[LightningZ71]

If you're really looking for a thin-and-light for light gaming, don't sleep on the 5700U. In a lot of games, the difference between the 5700u and the 5800u is nearly indistinguishable, and the 5700u is hundreds less in most situations. The iGPU on the 5700U is fully enabled with all 8 CUs, and, in most situations, both the 5700 and 5800 are severely GPU limited to the point that the CPU improvement for the 5800u is unnoticeable. In MT situations, the 5800U only barely edges out the 5700 in most situations. It's only in highly single threaded situations that the 5700 noticeably falls behind, and, even then, its not by a major degree.

 

[ahimsa42]

If you want to play any games, the biggest difference between playable and unplayable is on the low end and iGPU

Once you get to certain "escape" velocity, which I would say is at around AMD 6600 XT GPU, you can pretty much play everything, if you fiddle with the settings.

In other words, the difference between 8 FPS and 30 FPS is a difference between playable and unplayable. Difference between 60 FPS and 120 FPS is almost academic.

So between ADL and Rembrandt, the GPU performance difference is where the impact is the greatest.

you seem to be speaking about FPS games which do not interest me in the least. i play TBS & RPG which have far lower system req's and look great at 1080p. most of the games i play have at most 1050ti or maybe 1060 as recommended GPU's. i think that having a thin light U processor close to a1050 level is not out of the question for rembrandt.

 

[Joe NYC]

you seem to be speaking about FPS games which do not interest me in the least. i play TBS & RPG which have far lower system req's and look great at 1080p. most of the games i play have at most 1050ti or maybe 1060 as recommended GPU's. i think that having a thin light U processor close to a1050 level is not out of the question for rembrandt.

This applies to strategy games as well. You can take a cross section of games from Transport Fever 2 to Dyson Sphere, to Europa Universalis, and they are not super enjoyable at or below 1050 Ti level performance (perhaps EU4 is somewhat playable).

So this is the opposite end of the spectrum of FPS games, where you can still play with iGPU, and the difference of Rembrandt performance vs. ADL will make some difference.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Still Zen 3 with only 16MB L3. Alder Lake will destroy it except in GPU.

Did I miss something? Isn't Rembrandt supposed to use an updated core on N6?

 

[uzzi38]

Did I miss something? Isn't Rembrandt supposed to use an updated core on N6?

Still Zen 3 for the most part. New stuff is DDR5, plus N6 will probably give an OK efficiency bump.

 

[andermans]

For the gaming laptop market sure.

Think and lights exist though, and they're significantly larger market.

Don't disagree, though most things I've seen people in that segment complain about are better served with a better CPU (or auxiliary functions like video encoding/decoding), not GPU, and hence AMD will likely have an uphill battle in that segment if they're behind on CPU. Not saying a better GPU won't be welcomed though.

 

[Harry_Wild]

Will Rembrandt use the same motherboard as the Ryzen?

 

[ahimsa42]

This applies to strategy games as well. You can take a cross section of games from Transport Fever 2 to Dyson Sphere, to Europa Universalis, and they are not super enjoyable at or below 1050 Ti level performance (perhaps EU4 is somewhat playable).

So this is the opposite end of the spectrum of FPS games, where you can still play with iGPU, and the difference of Rembrandt performance vs. ADL will make some difference.

the 1st two games you mentioned are sims not TBS & the third one lists GTX560 as the recommended gpu which is quite a bit weaker than a non-ti 1050. the type of TBS games i am referring to are the Fantasy General remake, the upcoming Master of Magic remake & Songs of Conquest.