Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

[izaic3]

Alright, so we've had some leaks so far. I don't know if any of it's been confirmed yet, as it's pretty early, but here is what I've surmised so far (massive grain of salt of course):

• Zen 3 "enhanced"
• DDR5 and LPDDR5 support
• PCIE4
• 6nm
• CVML
• Navi 2/RDNA/RDNA 2
• 12 CU
• Socket FP7/AM5
• Possible USB4
• 2021(unlikely) -2022 (more likely) release date

If if turns out to have RDNA 2 and 12 CU, I could see iGPU performance potentially almost doubling over Cezanne.

If I've made any mistakes or gotten anything wrong, please let me know. I'd also love to hear more knowledgeable people weigh in on their expectations.

 

[Spicy]

AMD is planning to release RX 6400 based on N24 with only 12CU enabled instead of 16CU, Link.
We can then compare Rembrandt IGP vs RX6400 and see how much 64bit GDDR6 +16MB IF helps.

Why sell a discrete GPU with almost the same performance as an iGP?
Except if RMB will not have a public release (like 4000G)?

 

[Joe NYC]

Interesting. Looks like they're just going to slide B2-stepping Vermeer into the same position as the existing B0-stepping Vermeer. Same product name, basically the same sku, etc. Gonna be like the updated Switch. You'll have to check product codes to know what you're getting.

That makes sense. Just remains to be seen if AMD any higher clock speed out of the B2 stepping, as another SKU

 

[jpiniero]

Why sell a discrete GPU with almost the same performance as an iGP?
Except if RMB will not have a public release (like 4000G)?

CPUs without an IGP enabled. Possibly included with some Intel CPU products.

 

[Spicy]

CPUs without an IGP enabled. Possibly included with some Intel CPU products.

What do you mean? Rembrandt without iGP?
No sense.
AMD has already its Vermeer lineup for that. And Vermeer-X (v-cache) for 2022.
Since Raphael has an integrated graphic processor (although smaller than Rempbrandt/Phoenix), I'm afraid AMD will kill its G/GE lineup (at least for the customers/retails)

Edit: Sorry, I understood. You mean RX 6400 for Vermeer or ADL-F. Yes, that's a reason. But I'm still afraid that it gives them an excuse not to release rembrandt on desktop. We'll see.

 

[jpiniero]

But I'm still afraid that it gives them an excuse not to release rembrandt on desktop. We'll see.

You'd still have the possibility of using the 6400 with Alder Lake or Raphael still since the 6400 would be faster.

As for Rembrandt getting a desktop release, I think it definitely will but there is a chance it won't be released to DIY. Or it could end being like Cezanne and released much later.

 

[Spicy]

Yes, It's almost certain that it will be for AM5, but perhaps not for DIY.

Some (bad) facts:
- eek2121 speak about that (although I don't know his sources)

FYI, I've been hearing that the upcoming Rembrandt release is OEM only and consumer parts (including AM5) will NOT be released.

EDIT: That is, consumer AM5 boards will be introduced with Zen 4.

- There is a precedent with Renoir
- There is shortages of chips
- AMD has always favored OEMs over consumer
- Raphael will have an iGP and will represent a substitute for the G lineup
- Rembrandt's 12CU will be a competition to RX6400's 12CU


Despite all this, I still hope that 6000G will have a public release

 

[Joe NYC]

You'd still have the possibility of using the 6400 with Alder Lake or Raphael still since the 6400 would be faster.

As for Rembrandt getting a desktop release, I think it definitely will but there is a chance it won't be released to DIY. Or it could end being like Cezanne and released much later.

Still a year to go with current generation of Zen 3, which has no graphics onboard, so a good fit.

I was actually looking for a decent card in 75 Watt range for a smallish PC with Zen 3, but after I figured out I could squeeze in enough power out of the power supply for 6600 XT

Also, Intel is releasing a low end card that will be roughly equivalent performance to 6400 / 6500. I don't think AMD wants to completely abandon this space and leave it to Intel.

 

[Joe NYC]

(not see the video) Is it Alder Lake-S? Only 32 EU.
Mobile ADL will come with 96EU. So, Cezanne will be beaten. Fortunately, they will release RMB at the same time.

BTW, any guestimates of Rembrandt vs. Xbox / PlayStation?

 

[ahimsa42]

"Despite all this, I still hope that 6000G will have a public release"

would be great but not very likely though. DYI may have to wait until zen 4 G APU's in late 2023 at best.

btw, i would assume you mean rembrandt may be at the level of a 6400M?

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

BTW, any guestimates of Rembrandt vs. Xbox / PlayStation?

Against the current breed? Hopeless. They have a lot more Graphics processing power and especially a lot more bandwidth.

 

[DrMrLordX]

That makes sense. Just remains to be seen if AMD any higher clock speed out of the B2 stepping, as another SKU

Probably not. They'll just have B2-stepping 5900X and 5950X with better boost behavior overall. Higher clocks @isopower (142W) instead of pushing more power for higher clocks (if possible, which it probably will be). Pretty sure Vermeer can already violate its own boost limits if it can stay within PPT limits doing so.

 

[eek2121]

Yes, It's almost certain that it will be for AM5, but perhaps not for DIY.

Some (bad) facts:
- eek2121 speak about that (although I don't know his sources)

- There is a precedent with Renoir
- There is shortages of chips
- AMD has always favored OEMs over consumer
- Raphael will have an iGP and will represent a substitute for the G lineup
- Rembrandt's 12CU will be a competition to RX6400's 12CU


Despite all this, I still hope that 6000G will have a public release

A bit confused by your post. Renior and Cezanne desktop APUs launched well after mobile variants. Cezanne desktop just launched. We aren’t getting an APU release prior to Q3 of next year, and tgat part won’t be Rembrandt. Laptop Rembrandt launches very soon.

 

[deasd]

How do you read processor details from User Bench I have tried it repeatedly with no luck...

Maybe it said 'Release date ≈ Q4 2021. ' so as it could be regarded as some new Vermeer. 5900 was Q3 2021 and we already saw tests last month, but when they would be on the market is still unknown.

 

[Joe NYC]

Against the current breed? Hopeless. They have a lot more Graphics processing power and especially a lot more bandwidth.

Ok, thanks, just wanted to get an idea. So when people say "get a console" to those who can't get a decent GPU for reasonable price, the APUs will not be able a decent alternative quite yet...

 

[Insert_Nickname]

So when people say "get a console" to those who can't get a decent GPU for reasonable price, the APUs will not be able a decent alternative quite yet...

Have you seen console pricing currently? If you can even find one in stock, be prepared to pay for it. They're more expensive then graphics cards here.

APUs are already a fair alternative if you're willing to tune down settings and resolution. I just ordered a 5700G on (a very good) Black Week sale for my HTPC. Should be a very decent upgrade from the Athlon currently residing there. There just, eh, -happened- to sneak a Asrock Deskmini X300 in on that order, so the Athlon can get a new home...

 

[ahimsa42]

another rumor that rembrandt will be announced in January 2022. hopefully laptops will be for sale by spring '22.

AMD Zen 3D, Rembrandt, NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti Desktop to be Announced in Jan 2022 [Rumor] | Hardware Times

The PC market is all set to heat up in 2022, with AMD, Intel and NVIDIA set to launch next-gen products one after the other in quick succession. According to Greymon55, AMD will be launching the Zen 3+ or Rembrandt mobile processors along with the “Zen 3D” Ryzen 5000 CPUs with V-Cache. The...

www.hardwaretimes.com

 

[Shivansps]

Why sell a discrete GPU with almost the same performance as an iGP?
Except if RMB will not have a public release (like 4000G)?

The Radeon 550 (64 bit) can already fall below 3200G performance sometimes... Same is true for the RX550 (128bit) and the 5600G.

 

[Shivansps]

A bit confused by your post. Renior and Cezanne desktop APUs launched well after mobile variants. Cezanne desktop just launched. We aren’t getting an APU release prior to Q3 of next year, and tgat part won’t be Rembrandt. Laptop Rembrandt launches very soon.

Yes and no, its not the same, as RMB requieres new motherboard and ram, RMB can launch in desktop at any time, it will just be more expensive than Cezanne. In fact it may come out sooner than expected in order not to give Intel too much of a head start on DDR5, i think it depends on AM5 motherboard progress.

 

[Hans Gruber]

It's high time that AMD include their integrated graphics within Ryzen 5 and 7 series CPU's. I get that AMD CPU's sip power while Intel Alder Lake is still a healthy drinker but not an outright drunk in power consumption prior to Alder Lake. AMD is still in good shape but they need to fire back. The APU is a fancy name for integrated graphics that are better than Intel Integrated graphics. AMD APU's gimp the CPU and nobody uses them unless their card burns up or they want to use it as a backup PC without a card.

 

[moinmoin]

It's high time that AMD include their integrated graphics within Ryzen 5 and 7 series CPU's.(...) AMD APU's gimp the CPU and nobody uses them unless their card burns up or they want to use it as a backup PC without a card.

So why should AMD include their integrated graphics again? 🤔

(Not that it matters since Raphael will have integrated graphics anyway.)

 

[Joe NYC]

So why should AMD include their integrated graphics again? 🤔

(Not that it matters since Raphael will have integrated graphics anyway.)

With the rumor of potential 170 Watt version of AM5 CPU, I wonder if there would be any market for a full 8 or 12 core Raphael CCD + 75 Watt GPU GCD... Something hopefully close to the performance of 6600 level GPUs, which is good enough to play all games at appropriate settings...

It seems that AMD is waiting for Intel to put some pressure on AMD in the iGPU area before AMD releases its own product that is just sufficiently ahead of Intel, but without creating a whole new class of CPU that could really be called APU...

 

[maddie]

Amazon has the 5700G for $309. That's a great price.

 

[MalVeauX]

Oddly enough when I look at the performance (APU wise) of the 5600G and 5700G it's single digit numbers in most games for a significant price increase. Looks like the 5600G is the best efficiency for cost in this category (APU wise, not solely CPU wise where the 5700G clearly has advantage on all things). Definitely will be nice to see the Navi2 performance over these next year.

Very best,

 

[Spicy]

btw, i would assume you mean rembrandt may be at the level of a 6400M?

Maybe quite close, with the same CU count. That makes sense to me, doesn't it?
But RX6400 will have a better memory bandwidth (with Infinity Cache!) and a dedicated TDP, while Rembrandt need to share it with Zen3. That will make a difference.
It would be surprising if AMD launch a 6400M dGPU with 12CU for mobile, alongside a 6000H with 12CU. Maybe for Intel chips?

The Radeon 550 (64 bit) can already fall below 3200G performance sometimes... Same is true for the RX550 (128bit) and the 5600G.

Of course, an APU can always find an old graphics card that performs worse than it does. But it would surprise me if AMD release an iGP and a dGP of the same generation with the same performance. They would compete with each other.
The RX500 are no longer on sale (except in second hand).
For me, the high end APU should be just below the low end graphic card.

 

[Joe NYC]

Maybe quite close, with the same CU count. That makes sense to me, doesn't it?
But RX6400 will have a better memory bandwidth (with Infinity Cache!) and a dedicated TDP, while Rembrandt need to share it with Zen3. That will make a difference.
It would be surprising if AMD launch a 6400M dGPU with 12CU for mobile, alongside a 6000H with 12CU. Maybe for Intel chips?

How does it work with Cezanne? Isn't L3 dedicated only to the CPU, while GPU needs to go directly to memory?

Do you think it will change in Rembrandt? Some sort of sharing of L3? or 2 separate caches, CPU L3 + Infinity Cache?