AMD Raven Ridge 'Zen APU' Thread

[KTE]

Well, i am not over reacting but your previous post sure gives the idea that you wanted to boost about performance from a given manufacturer.
I am not going to join in, but it should be better if you would compare Intels mobile cpu/gpu combo from 2012 with amd apu's from 2012.
That would be more fair.
Would be better to state the performance of the broadwell-U series and demanding that AMD comes up with something (mobile zen) alike in the near future.

I don't really think we're on the same page here...

CPUs have got nothing to do with this.
Major OEM/ODM setups for mobile AMD configs tend to be disastrous, no matter how good the CPU.

Even when AMD was the better solution in every possible way, they were still barely offered by the tier 1 OEMs and barely sold. Especially to enterprise customers.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

 

[Glo.]

Raven Ridge APUs will use Vega architecture.

http://techfrag.com/2016/07/15/amd-working-two-high-end-vega-gpus-greenland-vega-10-not/

Therefore, we can expect HBM memory on highest end, 95W APUs.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Maybe, AMD should go in negotiation with Quanta computer or foxconn or the other big name( i forgot for a moment) with an optimized design with chipset, ssd or M2 and dual channel memory laptop with a decent tft ips panel. And sell those laptops themselves. Show what can be possible with combined upcoming and present amd hardware. If AMD comes up with a laptop that has good performance for a reasonable price and some OEM makes a crappy model with a huge AMD logo on it just below the price, the reviewers will clearly state that the OEM laptop is a failure.And the AMD reference laptop will sell good.
Founders editions and reference designs cards for GPU sell pretty well. Why not take that one step further and do the same for laptops.

Do you think AMD really has the brand cachet and supply chain/marketing know-how/scale to compete with the likes of ASUS, Acer, Lenovo, etc. in the laptop business?

 

[Sweepr]

Raven Ridge APUs will use Vega architecture.

http://techfrag.com/2016/07/15/amd-working-two-high-end-vega-gpus-greenland-vega-10-not/

Therefore, we can expect HBM memory on highest end, 95W APUs.

Zero evidence in this link, and the the last part is just wishful thinking.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Raven Ridge APUs will use Vega architecture.

http://techfrag.com/2016/07/15/amd-working-two-high-end-vega-gpus-greenland-vega-10-not/

Therefore, we can expect HBM memory on highest end, 95W APUs.

I'll bet you $100 that we do not see HBM/HBM2 on Raven Ridge.

 

[Glo.]

Zero evidence in this link, and the the last part is just wishful thinking.

Raven Ridge is the same GPU family as Greenland and Vega. Britsol/Stoney Ridge is the same family as Polaris, because Polaris is the same family as Fiji and Tonga(slightly tuned).

Vega is true next gen. GPU arch.

Usage of HBM, although low-end HBM would be logical if AMD would want to compete with Intel in high-end SoC market.

But yes, This is just my thinking, nothing else.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Do you think AMD really has the brand cachet and supply chain/marketing know-how/scale to compete with the likes of ASUS, Acer, Lenovo, etc. in the laptop business?

I might be wrong, but if i remember correctly, those brands also order laptops by one of the big three laptop manufacturers. Mainly Quanta Computers Inc. Who produces the laptops for them .

 

[William Gaatjes]

I don't really think we're on the same page here...

CPUs have got nothing to do with this.
Major OEM/ODM setups for mobile AMD configs tend to be disastrous, no matter how good the CPU.

Even when AMD was the better solution in every possible way, they were still barely offered by the tier 1 OEMs and barely sold. Especially to enterprise customers.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

There has been a past where AMD had the K7 and K8.
And we all know how it went with the far less performing P4. There have been whole lawsuits about that, even in the EU which AMD won and Intel had to pay a fine. It is old news.
For details :
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-intel-ruling-factbox-idUSTRE54C3II20090513

But that is in the past, what AMD now needs to do is make sure they do not have another bulldozer- nehalem fight. Because that damaged the image AMD has for most people.
So, the tiny market share AMD had, it lost because some of the performance differences where reason for many people to shun and mock AMD.

 

[superstition]

a decent tft ips panel

IPS is overrated unless you're using it specifically for pro graphics. (If you are it had better have pro-level features, too, like a programmable hardware LUT, wide gamut, and high uniformity.) A-MVA offers much better contrast, especially if you're using a top-quality process like Sharp's. It goes over 5000:1 in the real world.

It's unfortunate that the IPS fervor has sidelined A-MVA. It also didn't help that Sharp focused primarily on selling very expensive panels for satellite imaging while the inferior AUO panels were, aside from one EIZO that used B-grade Sharp panels, the only thing on the market.

Not only does IPS suffer from IPS glow unless a person puts in a polarizer it has poor contrast. The off-angle performance of A-MVA has improved tremendously and it's less relevant in laptops anyway due to the small screen size.

 

[superstition]

What leverage does AMD have here?

"Use double channel memory or you can't use our APUs"?

Yeah, AMD isn't in a position to say that.

Of course it can. It can engineer the chips so they won't function without it.

The brand damage and low volume versus getting a small percentage of sales from OEMs gimping their chips... The question is... what's the cost-benefit ratio? Apparently, it has been in favor of brand damage, low volume, and gimping for AMD. That could change.

 

[William Gaatjes]

IPS is overrated unless you're using it specifically for pro graphics. (If you are it had better have pro-level features, too, like a programmable hardware LUT, wide gamut, and high uniformity.) A-MVA offers much better contrast, especially if you're using a top-quality process like Sharp's. It goes over 5000:1 in the real world.

It's unfortunate that the IPS fervor has sidelined A-MVA. It also didn't help that Sharp focused primarily on selling very expensive panels for satellite imaging while the inferior AUO panels were, aside from one EIZO that used B-grade Sharp panels, the only thing on the market.

Not only does IPS suffer from IPS glow unless a person puts in a polarizer it has poor contrast. The off-angle performance of A-MVA has improved tremendously and it's less relevant in laptops anyway due to the small screen size.

If you say so. I do not have all lcd panels to compare. I do have tn and ips tft and ips tft is superior. But it can very well be that A-MVA is even better. Maybe they should go to amoled ?

 

[superstition]

If you say so.

No. It's not me saying so. It's the top professional review sites like tftcentral and prad.de. It's an objective fact that A-MVA panels top out at 5700:1 in the real world and IPS is far below that at around 1100:1.

The only advantages IPS offers are:

• The most consistent color/gamma off-angle performance (relevant only to professional graphics unless you're comparing to TN which is terrible)

• A bit better pixel transition speed when accelerated than A-MVA, particularly in the darkest to light transitions — something that can be dealt with for the most part, but not eliminated, by using a strobing backlight and an optimal RTC.

The disadvantages are:

• Far less static contast (dynamic contrast ratio specs should be ignored)

• IPS glow unless the panel comes with a polarizer and pretty much no one makes those anymore.

• Slower pixel transitions than accelerated TN. For gamers who demand the absolute clearest motion performance, TN is the best.

I do not have all lcd panels to compare.

There are only three LCD panel types today. TN, A-MVA, and IPS.

I do have tn and ips tft and ips tft is superior.

TN is superior in speed, provided it is accelerated properly, but has terrible off-angle gamma/color accuracy.

Maybe they should go to amoled ?

Doubt it.

 

[lefenzy]

IPS is overrated unless you're using it specifically for pro graphics. (If you are it had better have pro-level features, too, like a programmable hardware LUT, wide gamut, and high uniformity.) A-MVA offers much better contrast, especially if you're using a top-quality process like Sharp's. It goes over 5000:1 in the real world.

It's unfortunate that the IPS fervor has sidelined A-MVA. It also didn't help that Sharp focused primarily on selling very expensive panels for satellite imaging while the inferior AUO panels were, aside from one EIZO that used B-grade Sharp panels, the only thing on the market.

Not only does IPS suffer from IPS glow unless a person puts in a polarizer it has poor contrast. The off-angle performance of A-MVA has improved tremendously and it's less relevant in laptops anyway due to the small screen size.

What about the poor on-angle performance of MVA? All shades of black are reduced to pure black when looking straight on. This to me is more bothersome than the contrast shift in a TN panel.

 

[William Gaatjes]

No. It's not me saying so. It's the top professional review sites like tftcentral and prad.de. It's an objective fact that A-MVA panels top out at 5700:1 in the real world and IPS is far below that at around 1100:1.

The only advantages IPS offers are:

• The most consistent color/gamma off-angle performance (relevant only to professional graphics unless you're comparing to TN which is terrible)

• A bit better pixel transition speed when accelerated than A-MVA, particularly in the darkest to light transitions — something that can be dealt with for the most part, but not eliminated, by using a strobing backlight and an optimal RTC.

The disadvantages are:

• Far less static contast (dynamic contrast ratio specs should be ignored)

• IPS glow unless the panel comes with a polarizer and pretty much no one makes those anymore.

• Slower pixel transitions than accelerated TN. For gamers who demand the absolute clearest motion performance, TN is the best.


There are only three LCD panel types today. TN, A-MVA, and IPS.


TN is superior in speed, provided it is accelerated properly, but has terrible off-angle gamma/color accuracy.


Doubt it.

TN looks terrible. I do not like it.
A-MVA, i cannot comment on.
IPS i have seen and the IPS glow at low brightness pictures can be solved for a great part by having an image asic that can also dynamically adjust the backlightning depending on the brightness component in the image to be presented.
Reduce the backlight for low light output images and the glow will also reduce. This works pretty well. I had to get used to it, Because in the beginning i would think that my television turned off while watching a movie with a scene fading to black.

Amoled screen, i have in my telephone and amoled televisions are available.Thus, size is not a limitation but cost is.
I do have seen some recent Quantum Dot lcd televisions. And the hdr range is amazing.
That might also be handy for laptops with bright daylight situations, similar as how amoled telephones handle it. Handy for reading in the sun. But high cost still.
What i like about my amoled telephone is that it does it best to even display a proper picture even at bright daylight.
I think Quantum Dot based lcd screens would really boost images for laptops.
Maybe an lcd panel that can switch between transmissive and reflective could also be handy for pure reading sessions in daylight and might be cheaper and good for battery saving.

 

[KTE]

There has been a past where AMD had the K7 and K8.
And we all know how it went with the far less performing P4. There have been whole lawsuits about that, even in the EU which AMD won and Intel had to pay a fine. It is old news.
For details :
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-intel-ruling-factbox-idUSTRE54C3II20090513

But that is in the past, what AMD now needs to do is make sure they do not have another bulldozer- nehalem fight. Because that damaged the image AMD has for most people.
So, the tiny market share AMD had, it lost because some of the performance differences where reason for many people to shun and mock AMD.

Most customers, and tech support, are clueless about AMD or Intel, let alone Nehalem. They don't buy anything other than the configs OEMs push out. Availability, OEM config/setup and marketing or the solution is of the most critical importance. That's DT, Mobile and Server.

I had this argument with someone today, a techy. Core i5/i7 is all he knew about that made a good CPU. And GHz. I was so shocked at his continuous arguing. Guys a +40 YO Infrastructure Specialist on £60k PA working at one of the biggest tech companies ever

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

 

[superstition]

What about the poor on-angle performance of MVA? All shades of black are reduced to pure black when looking straight on. This to me is more bothersome than the contrast shift in a TN panel.

It's considered minor by the professional reviewers, except in the context of pro graphics. Perhaps in the past, particularly with Samsung's c-PVA, it was more of an issue. It's certainly nothing compared to TN's drastic vertical gamma/color shifting. I have three A-MVA panels and none of them are particularly bothersome in that regard.

I think Quantum Dot based lcd screens would really boost images for laptops.

We'll see. The performance the quantum dot LCD monitor Anandtech reviewed wasn't good.

 

[lefenzy]

It's considered minor by the professional reviewers, except in the context of pro graphics. Perhaps in the past, particularly with Samsung's c-PVA, it was more of an issue. It's certainly nothing compared to TN's drastic vertical gamma/color shifting. I have three A-MVA panels and none of them are particularly bothersome in that regard.

Well I once had a MVA monitor, and it was bothersome. I think IPS offers the best all-around balance until OLED becomes mainstream.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Most customers, and tech support, are clueless about AMD or Intel, let alone Nehalem. They don't buy anything other than the configs OEMs push out. Availability, OEM config/setup and marketing or the solution is of the most critical importance. That's DT, Mobile and Server.

I had this argument with someone today, a techy. Core i5/i7 is all he knew about that made a good CPU. And GHz. I was so shocked at his continuous arguing. Guys a +40 YO Infrastructure Specialist on £60k PA working at one of the biggest tech companies ever

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

Well, a few months back i had seen some AMD laptops and i was saddened by how the oem manufacturers did their best to present AMD as low value in cheaped out low value laptops that still had a premium price. No customer in their right mind would buy that.
I think AMD should really commit them selves to show that AMD is a fine brand. Maybe not perfect but very good. After ZEN comes out in the near future and is not disappointing also for the low power laptop market, i really hope that AMD can have some fine design wins. But, perhaps in the oem world, the same awareness exists that AMD is low value. Or there are still shady business tactics going on.

 

[ElFenix]

Do you think AMD really has the brand cachet and supply chain/marketing know-how/scale to compete with the likes of ASUS, Acer, Lenovo, etc. in the laptop business?

asus bootstrapped itself into the retail PC marketplace not all that long ago. prior to that they'd only sold components. which is what AMD does now.

i don't think it'd be a brand cachet deal at all. asus basically had none with joe consumer. scale and supply chain aren't really issues anymore due to mass manufacturing in china. post-sale support can be outsourced like it is with everyone.

AMD's biggest issue would be making sure they have a premium product that people actually want to buy.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

IPS is overrated unless you're using it specifically for pro graphics. (If you are it had better have pro-level features, too, like a programmable hardware LUT, wide gamut, and high uniformity.) A-MVA offers much better contrast, especially if you're using a top-quality process like Sharp's. It goes over 5000:1 in the real world.

It's unfortunate that the IPS fervor has sidelined A-MVA. It also didn't help that Sharp focused primarily on selling very expensive panels for satellite imaging while the inferior AUO panels were, aside from one EIZO that used B-grade Sharp panels, the only thing on the market.

Not only does IPS suffer from IPS glow unless a person puts in a polarizer it has poor contrast. The off-angle performance of A-MVA has improved tremendously and it's less relevant in laptops anyway due to the small screen size.

I really do not find them overrated. My phones/chromebook are the only devices I have with an IPS panel as well. An IPS panel is required for anyone who can even appreciate photography or consumes a lot of photo/video content on their devices. I had an i3 with an LCD panel for my wife and she didn't like watching movies on it or even browsing her tumblr because photos and videos looked washed out. I showed her the Toshiba chromebook 2 and she was hooked on the screen alone. The screen is arguably the most important part of a build.

 

[ElFenix]

this is an odd tangent...

phones really need IPS panels because the viewing angles on them can be pretty much anywhere, so IPS is really the only LCD technology that works.

for TVs there's a lot of VA panels out there due to the better contrast ratio and black levels that VA panels can reach vs. IPS panels. lots of top of the line 4k HDR sets use VA panels for that reason.

your i3 was probably a TN panel.

 

[AtenRa]

In light of the new lower cost HBM and since Raven Ridge is a H2 2017 product, i will say a 8GB HBM APU for Laptops is very possibly and viable solution.

For High-End, High Performance, Thin Chassis Segment ($800-1200+)

Raven Ridge with 8GB HBM

1. Single slot solution.
2. Simpler Motherboard design and lower BOM
3. No extra DDR-3/4 dimm slots or integrated Chips
4. Single cooler design, smaller, lighter, cheaper.
5. Higher or same Graphics performance vs dGPU (RX 460m GDDR-5) of the same class with lower power consumption.

1+2+3+4+5 =
Even if the HBM APU alone will be more expensive than a DDR-4 APU, the HBM APU will make the final product (Laptop) be cheaper, lighter, with same or faster performance, consume less power, increase Battery life, be thinner.

Intel doesnt have a product like that, it will make AMDs HBM APU look like heaven to OEM/ODMs.

thoughts ??

 

[ShintaiDK]

All those HBM dreams but without any consideration of cost or anything else with a slight hint of reality.

Why not expect Intel CPUs to ship mainstream with HMC.

HBM at this point is more dead than alive. HBM3 is a 2020 or longer product. A low cost HBM because the cost structure is trying to be done but without actual cost benefit or timeframe released. But again, HBM is and will always be flawed in its cost structure.

The mW/Gbps/Pin ratio benefit of HBM2 was even lost when GDDR5X got rolled in.

Sure HBM is great for size and ECC. And that's about it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The GP102 is a prime example on how bad the cost structure for HBM2 is. If it wasn't clear enough with the Fiji disaster.

 

[Erenhardt]

All those HBM dreams but without any consideration of cost or anything else with a slight hint of reality.

Why not expect Intel CPUs to ship mainstream with HMC.

,Yet they ship slow ass e-dram part