AMD Polaris Thread: Radeon RX 480, RX 470 & RX 460 launching June 29th

[Yakk]

But most PCs game worse than the PS4 anyway so what does "pcmasterrace" really mean? Even when your specs are better, the actual experience is often worse due to PC Master Bloat. Hopefully, with the RX400 series, ANY PC, even with a 460, will game better than a console, even when taking bloat into account.

+1 to you sir for using the term "PC Master Bloat"! PC games are so bloated and wasteful of system resource it's not even funny. Consoles just don't have that bloat, in addition to having specialty developer tools to help them. DX12 at least cuts through a good portion of that bloat.

 

[Shivansps]

Cry me a river.
Polaris is chosen for the consoles as a 7850 like replacement.
Dx12 is here to stay.
It probably hurts in someones eyes.
But a 7870 is similar to 680 today.
Fact.

For god sake, just tell me the numbers of tomorrow lottery already.

The only fact here is:
-HD7870 in consoles was matched by less performing cards on PC and by using I3s. Dont point at me if you dont like it, thats the truth, althought not on all cases.

-HD7870 was sold as a current gen GPU for +4 years, as such it got proper atention by drivers. We dont need this to happen again, in less than 2 years RX400 cards need to be properly replaced.

-Console and PC development is NOT the same, NOT that BS again please, this was proveen in the current gen, if Dice dropping Mantle after BF4 is not proof enoght to you, then it is your problem, i dont what else to say, that should be more than enoght.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

For god sake, just tell me the numbers of tomorrow lottery already.

The only fact here is:
-HD7870 in consoles was matched by less performing cards on PC and by using I3s. Dont point at me if you dont like it, thats the truth.

Correction: performance targets set by devs using consoles was matched in some cases, not all, and never exceeded spectacularly by an overclocked system that costs considerably more. Additionally, comparison is impossible in some great-looking exclusives. With an OS, you're looking at $450 for an i3-4160/750 Ti system using some questionable components.

Meanwhile you can get a PS4 with a game for $326, new: http://www.dealzon.com/deals/cheap-playstation-4. Plus it includes a controller that's worth about $50 and can be used with a PC as well.

 

[krumme]

for the 23456789th time, Sony and MS do what best FOR THEM, it does not means its good for PC GAMING. Its not that hard to understand.

No its not hard to understand. They chose what is good for CONSOLE GAMING. Go tell them about the 750ti and core i3 and they will give you a lollipop.
What is just perfectly clear is that it have had and will have consequences for how pc games perform on different arch. Bad or good.
Its eg about keeping cost down so porting is as cheap as possible.
Thats why we see the perf between gcn and non gcn (fermi) changing so much over time in favor of gcn.
A 7870 is similar to a 680.
Therefore its not unheard a aib 480 will match or overtake a aib 1070 in dx12 and vr in 2 years time.

 

[Shivansps]

It gets crushed by consoles in both Rise of the Tomb Raider and DOOM.

DOOM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl2v0socpZY
-Can't match console performance even at all low settings.

Rise of the Tomb Raider: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-pc-face-off


Homefront: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMX2ZuzIqJc
-Loses to Xbox One

Yeah it cant be done all the time, still its just a I3 and a 750TI, that is far less powerfull than what PS4 has... btw on Homefront its close enoght.

 

[Shivansps]

No its not hard to understand. They chose what is good for CONSOLE GAMING. Go tell them about the 750ti and core i3 and they will give you a lollipop.
What is just perfectly clear is that it have had and will have consequences for how pc games perform on different arch. Bad or good.
Its eg about keeping cost down so porting is as cheap as possible.
Thats why we see the perf between gcn and non gcn (fermi) changing so much over time in favor of gcn.
A 7870 is similar to a 680.
Therefore its not unheard a aib 480 will match or overtake a aib 1070 in dx12 and vr in 2 years time.

So in your opinion HD7870 reached a GTX680 on DX11 because the consoles has GCN GPU?... Nice conspiracy teory you have right there.

Meaning for YOU drivers have NO EFFECT at all on hardware... it has nothing to do with HD7870 still getting proper attention on drivers because they keep selling it, and the GTX680 being a 3 (now 4) generation old card that nvidia does not give a crap about it on drivers. OK, NICE, good talking to you sir. Goodbye.

 

[itsmydamnation]

-Console and PC development is NOT the same, NOT that BS again please, this was proveen in the current gen, if Dice dropping Mantle after BF4 is not proof enoght to you, then it is your problem, i dont what else to say, that should be more than enoght.

Ahh good old coloration vs causation, If you go on B3D you will find every dev disagreeing with you, you might even get Repi to tell you your wrong directly.

Also I dont know about your idea of proof, but you better tell Microsoft that it appears they you know more then they do.......

For example here is a unity dev's side project where he is rewriting the Duke nukem 3d build engine from scratch to be a modern engine in UMP and the same binary runs on both PC and Xbox.

https://forums.duke4.net/topic/8619-polymerng-xbox-one-and-windows-10/
also took him like a day to get it from ump to a standard x64 binary......

There are going to be differences based on the extra control exposed to console dev's vs a more restricted standardized API or things around resource contention but pretending like is somehow a completely different magical beast is really just lying.......

 

[IllogicalGlory]

Yeah it cant be done all the time, still its just a I3 and a 750TI, that is far less powerfull than what PS4 has... btw on Homefront its close enoght.

It's an overclocked 750 Ti. It generally loses at stock. Digital Foundry overclocks theirs to +200 MHz, which should get them around 1300+ MHz. With one of those in place, even the FLOPS count gets pretty close to the PS4 (1.64 vs 1.84, which is a 12% advantage to the PS4). Of course, Maxwell is superior to GCN 1.1. It's closer than you think. The PS4's GPU has 128 SPs less than the 7870 (in other words, the 7870 has 11.1% more shaders) and is clocked lower.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7764/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-750-ti-and-gtx-750-review-maxwell/23

Here we see that an OC'ed 750 Ti generally beats an R7 265, which has about the same (in fact, it's extremely close) FLOPS count and the same memory bandwidth as the PS4's GPU.

Really what we're looking at is a system with a GPU that has about the same performance (probably higher honestly), and a much more powerful CPU. One that's considerably more expensive; it's not that impressive, especially when you see it completely crushed in two really popular games.

 

[sze5003]

Wow how did this go from discussing a GPU to now consoles are better because they don't have bloat?

I have both consoles and sometimes I buy a game on the console solely because my friends don't have gaming PC's or because I prefer to play on a couch sometimes.

Console games are easier because they are developed for set specific requirements and eco system. Most console games equate to playing on a mid range PC at medium to high settings.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

So in your opinion HD7870 reached a GTX680 on DX11 because the consoles has GCN GPU?... Nice conspiracy teory you have right there.

Meaning for YOU drivers have NO EFFECT at all on hardware... it has nothing to do with HD7870 still getting proper attention on drivers because they keep selling it, and the GTX680 being a 3 (now 4) generation old card that nvidia does not give a crap about it on drivers. OK, NICE, good talking to you sir. Goodbye.

That's hardly a conspiracy theory. There may well be some truth to it. Yours is equally conspiracy theory-esque (not very). Maybe more as its directly placing the blame on NV, though I agree. Besides, I'm not sure that there's that much of a divide between his explanation and yours.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

Wow how did this go from discussing a GPU to now consoles are better because they don't have bloat?

Because news on the new GPU slowed down and we're killing time until the 29th.

 

[iiiankiii]

So in your opinion HD7870 reached a GTX680 on DX11 because the consoles has GCN GPU?... Nice conspiracy teory you have right there.

Meaning for YOU drivers have NO EFFECT at all on hardware... it has nothing to do with HD7870 still getting proper attention on drivers because they keep selling it, and the GTX680 being a 3 (now 4) generation old card that nvidia does not give a crap about it on drivers. OK, NICE, good talking to you sir. Goodbye.

Bro, you're hella wrong. The console effect is REAL. Your argument might hold a bit more water if the same effect ISN'T happening to Maxwell as well. Maxwell used to be clearly ahead of GCN (Hawaii). However, over the last 6 months, the 390/x are beating the 970/980 in new games. Heck, in some games, it even matches the GTX980TI!!!

The console effect is real. It will continue to be this way because Polaris is in both the xbone2 and PS4K. Developers will optimize those consoles. Polaris 10 on the PC will get that added benefit because of it. I firmly believe this. The trend is there. Only GameWorks games will become the outlier.

 

[krumme]

OK, NICE, good talking to you sir. Goodbye.

Thank you. Take care your caps lock doesnt wear down until next time. Its bad for the blood pressure

 

[SPBHM]

It gets crushed by consoles in both Rise of the Tomb Raider and DOOM.

DOOM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl2v0socpZY
-Can't match console performance even at all low settings.

Rise of the Tomb Raider: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-pc-face-off


Homefront: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMX2ZuzIqJc
-Loses to Xbox One

but, that's not the case for most games,
Doom is using OpenGL on the PC, that's not a good start unfortunately, Tomb Raider smells like a quick port + gameworks...

also, horrible ports with unplayable performance are also a thing on consoles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6JXeX9sYYE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wo7N9uzSBw

if you had a PC you could try lowering settings for performance, but with a console? nope.

that's a big advantage for me
I've played this https://youtu.be/CYpYgq-Ln_c?t=33s
on my PC with much older/weaker hardware and way better framerate, because I can adjust settings

also another reason for going PC is mouse and keyboard, no awkward auto aim required and all, not to mention I can use an xbox or another hundreds of input devices, even the ones I bought 15 years ago, same for games, I can play my entire PC library on the same machine, you can't do that on consoles....

still, I find the whole master race thing super stupid, lot's of people like me play with old/weak hardware (check steam survey..) but also the current gen, specially the PS4 is pretty good, we are no longer dealing with the aging and running out of memory PS3 and 360... but it's just a joke,
and consoles are great, specially when they are running exclusive games like the ones Sony have, at times just turning it on quickly and running the game with everything already set is very appealing...

now closer to the topic, 460 is probably going to be "OK" on console multiplatforms, but not always equal or better, it's probably going to perform more like a GTX 950 than a 750 ti... but I think you really want at least the 470 to play console ports with good quality, which is fine, the card will cost like $150? not to bad, that's like 3 years of Xbox Live (for the US at least...), and it will last longer/age better than an Xbox One S, probably

 

[Thala]

Really what we're looking at is a system with a GPU that has about the same performance (probably higher honestly), and a much more powerful CPU. One that's considerably more expensive; it's not that impressive, especially when you see it completely crushed in two really popular games.

Excuse my ignorance, but is it for anyone surprising that games on consoles running much better given the same base specs as GFLOPS and bandwidth? I mean it is very specific target to optimized for, on top of specialized architecture (e.g. unified memory instead of high latency PCIE on PCs).
I currently only see Shivansps living in this dreamworld though.

if you had a PC you could try lowering settings for performance, but with a console? nope.

I would not take this as advantage as console games typically are pretty much optimized from both game-code and settings to target framerate.
The Fallout 4 DLC certainly is a very bad example particularly on PS4 is is a disaster. On XBox one it drops too often below 30fps as well but runs leaps and bounds better than PS4. So i agree on while it is borderline acceptable on XBox One on PS4 it is not.
To make long story short, the common expectation of console gamers is, that the game runs nicely out of the box without tinkering with settings. And this is far more often the case than not.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

I'm mostly surprised we get games with consistent performance at all on that landfill-tier CPU.

I'm fairly certain it's responsible for the general lack of 60 FPS games.

 

[Silverforce11]

Bro, you're hella wrong. The console effect is REAL. Your argument might hold a bit more water if the same effect ISN'T happening to Maxwell as well. Maxwell used to be clearly ahead of GCN (Hawaii). However, over the last 6 months, the 390/x are beating the 970/980 in new games. Heck, in some games, it even matches the GTX980TI!!!

The console effect is real. It will continue to be this way because Polaris is in both the xbone2 and PS4K. Developers will optimize those consoles. Polaris 10 on the PC will get that added benefit because of it. I firmly believe this. The trend is there. Only GameWorks games will become the outlier.

His point is also partially correct.

AMD is on GCN for a long time, so they continue to support older GCN cards in their game optimized drivers. The effect cascades down.

This is the reason why my old 7950 (280) is still a stellar 1080p performer. OC (40% overclock, no slouch) it beats the likes of the gtx 960 OC. Supposedly newer tech.

Until AMD changes the base architecture, their game optimizations as well as console developers optimizing their game engines for GCN, PC gamers on GCN cards will see continued improvement & support.

With Polaris and Vega still being GCN, we can expect this trend to continue. Especially so that all the major new consoles are again, GCN based.

It's a combination effect.

 

[krumme]

I'm mostly surprised we get games with consistent performance at all on that landfill-tier CPU.

I'm fairly certain it's responsible for the general lack of 60 FPS games.

Yeaa. Top perf of all 6 cores at same time is well ...fine but man...i guess some crazy dicipline is needed. Engines is changed forever.

I always wondered if programmers needed a gun to their head. Lol.

Seriously. Do they need a little beating?

 

[Nhirlathothep]

i posted this 3 days ago in the "Post your game room/station pics" thread

to end console war

Xbox one only gaming setup



(i m going to use it only to play fms6)

i prefer different gaming setup in different rooms for each pc-console

so here i have only :

[Xbox] [Samsung 60"] [Samsung Hifi] [Wireless headset]


tip: some payed games are unplayable (fps under 15, and there s nothing you can do)
example: the crew - lords of the fallen

 

[Nhirlathothep]

it was not a joke: 15 fps and nothing you can do

 

[.vodka]

Excuse my ignorance, but is it for anyone surprising that games on consoles running much better given the same base specs as GFLOPS and bandwidth? I mean it is very specific target to optimized for, on top of specialized architecture (e.g. unified memory instead of high latency PCIE on PCs).
I currently only see Shivansps living in this dreamworld though.

No, it's not. It shouldn't surprise anyone...

Neither is seeing game engines developed and intended to run well on underpowered hardware like the consoles' and on GCN, favoring GCN hardware in the PC. As games extract more and more out of the hardware, code gets more and more GCN specific, the advantage for AMD widens. GCN is also in the next console cycle in what seems to be the three consoles this time, further solidifying AMD hardware as the industry standard.

Both this and continued driver support for GCN cards has Pitcairn moving a tier up to the GTX770 and equaling or beating GTX 960, Tahiti also moving a tier up and equaling or beating GTX780/Titan and 780Ti sometimes, Hawaii equaling or beating GTX980. When was the last time, in the GPU world, that 4 year old hardware is still useful? GCN's longevity so far is insane. Also insane value for the money for those who don't upgrade often.


The trend will get even more pronounced in the future considering how little Pascal is an upgrade over Maxwell. Pascal appeared out of nowhere when the 20nm node failed, taking Volta's place in the roadmaps. It's a stopgap. Not that there's anything wrong with the architectural refinement approach, AMD did the same with Terascale throughout the HD2000-6000 series until it was time to start anew.

Problem for nV until Volta is, AMD has both their APIs (mantle derivatives) and hardware (GCN) everywhere... and if Polaris' new command processor and discard accelerator turn out to be useful upgrades, tesselation based gimpworks and DX11 performance will mostly stop being a problem going forward for AMD, also benefiting from more DX12 games. Who knows what Vega will bring as yet another GCN refinement...



RX480 should be both cheap and long lasting apart from providing what seems to be 390x performance as expected so far, it's quite the deal. Should the reviews show RX480 as a good enough product, I might find my 290 a new home and save 150-200w while gaming in the process.

Doesn't matter which way you look at it, the RX480 is the best that's happened to the gaming community in years. Nice little card, inexpensive, lots of value, sipping power and letting those on crappy PSUs game decently. Seems we'd forgotten about such releases these past few years...

 

[krumme]

His point is also partially correct.

AMD is on GCN for a long time, so they continue to support older GCN cards in their game optimized drivers. The effect cascades down.

This is the reason why my old 7950 (280) is still a stellar 1080p performer. OC (40% overclock, no slouch) it beats the likes of the gtx 960 OC. Supposedly newer tech.

Until AMD changes the base architecture, their game optimizations as well as console developers optimizing their game engines for GCN, PC gamers on GCN cards will see continued improvement & support.

With Polaris and Vega still being GCN, we can expect this trend to continue. Especially so that all the major new consoles are again, GCN based.

It's a combination effect.

Who says gcn 1 to 4 generation isnt as different as fermi to kepler to maxwell to pascal?
Because of the name ?

I simply can not tell but to me much of the change on nv side was the frontend in Maxwell and the rest was more tuned for low power.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

Who says gcn 1 to 4 generation isnt as different as fermi to kepler to maxwell to pascal?
Because of the name ?

Performance per shader, clock speed and efficiency really haven't changed much, on average. At least that's true for 28nm GCN. Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell were all quite different in those regards.

 

[thesmokingman]

I smell desperation in there air.


On a side note, stores are getting their stock and from this it's a helluvlot of stock on hand. I wonder how the UK meltdown will affect things if any...

http://wccftech.com/amd-rx-480-shipments-hit-us-stores/

 

[Thala]

it was not a joke: 15 fps and nothing you can do

I already agreed that this might be the case. I blame the developer though because as i mentioned, the expectation of a console gamer is that the games runs fine out of the box and this means either constant 60fps or constant 30fps. It is certainly not the expectation to tinker with settings.

That is by the way one of the primary reasons i play most games on console, despite having a much beefier PC (6700K + Nano CF). The other reasons is, that my consoles are integrated into the entertainment setup (e.g. XBox One controls all other devices with voice control). Price is mostly irrelevant in my decision.
In summary i value convenience higher than having a few nicer pixels on screen. It does not substantially take away from having fun with a game.