Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[MrTeal]

They did release, it's just not popular and don't offer good value for money, GTX 1630, which is worse than 1050ti

Neither AMD nor Nvidia seem interested in competing in the low end market. Unfortunately as Intel has shown there's not really room for someone like an ARM licensee to come in and offer a useable low end GPU, the outlay in developing a Windows driver team is just too great. With all the cutting edge stuff moving to new nodes it'd be great if Nvidia put a small team on it and produced an AD108 die at <100mm², 12SM, and 4GB 64-bit on N6. Put it into an RTX 4030 at 50W and NVS cards for workstations and it'd be a great alternative to a Phoenix APU even in small form factors.

 

[Glo.]

Neither AMD nor Nvidia seem interested in competing in the low end market. Unfortunately as Intel has shown there's not really room for someone like an ARM licensee to come in and offer a useable low end GPU, the outlay in developing a Windows driver team is just too great. With all the cutting edge stuff moving to new nodes it'd be great if Nvidia put a small team on it and produced an AD108 die at <100mm², 12SM, and 4GB 64-bit on N6. Put it into an RTX 4030 at 50W and NVS cards for workstations and it'd be a great alternative to a Phoenix APU even in small form factors.

That market will be filled by APUs.

No more low-end stuff, unless necessary.

 

[MrTeal]

That's where they're going, but APUs are very inflexible. You need to lock in your ratio of CPU to GPU power when you're building the system, and it really hinders upgrades.
Phoenix would be less of an issue on the desktop as a gaming platform if they weren't charging CPU margins on the die though. Phoenix is N4 and the same die size as an 8GB RTX 4060, and NVIDIA is charging 10% less for that whole card than AMD wants for a 8700G.

 

[jpiniero]

That's where they're going, but APUs are very inflexible. You need to lock in your ratio of CPU to GPU power when you're building the system, and it really hinders upgrades.
Phoenix would be less of an issue on the desktop as a gaming platform if they weren't charging CPU margins on the die though. Phoenix is N4 and the same die size as an 8GB RTX 4060, and NVIDIA is charging 10% less for that whole card than AMD wants for a 8700G.

Big Phoenix is 176 mm2. Which is between the die sizes of AD106 and AD107. And margins of the 4060 are probably not great. I'm sure nVidia is squeezing AIBs to try to get as much as they can there.

 

[Glo.]

That's where they're going, but APUs are very inflexible. You need to lock in your ratio of CPU to GPU power when you're building the system, and it really hinders upgrades.
Phoenix would be less of an issue on the desktop as a gaming platform if they weren't charging CPU margins on the die though. Phoenix is N4 and the same die size as an 8GB RTX 4060, and NVIDIA is charging 10% less for that whole card than AMD wants for a 8700G.

The way to go for EVERYBODY, including Apple is chiplet/tile dased APUs.

Intel already is doing this.

Expect that future APUs may differ in GPU chiplet/tile configs, but not the CPU tile.

So we may get SOC lineup with 8P/16E CPU cores from Intel but with two different GPU tiles.

Secondly.

How much do you have to pay on top of 4060 for CPU with similar performance to PHX? Everything is a trade-off.

 

[maddie]

That's where they're going, but APUs are very inflexible. You need to lock in your ratio of CPU to GPU power when you're building the system, and it really hinders upgrades.
Phoenix would be less of an issue on the desktop as a gaming platform if they weren't charging CPU margins on the die though. Phoenix is N4 and the same die size as an 8GB RTX 4060, and NVIDIA is charging 10% less for that whole card than AMD wants for a 8700G.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Big Phoenix is 176 mm2. Which is between the die sizes of AD106 and AD107. And margins of the 4060 are probably not great. I'm sure nVidia is squeezing AIBs to try to get as much as they can there.

As ever, true to form. PCB, Memory (which according to you are hugely expensive), associated sub components on PCB, cooler & fan + GPU DIE.

Lets take your claim about Nvidia squeezing AIB margins. Let's assume card margins are zero for AIBs as an absolute worst case. Then AMD has to be making the cost of the GPU card in addition to the margin Nvidia is making on the GPU.

 

[MrTeal]

The way to go for EVERYBODY, including Apple is chiplet/tile dased APUs.

Intel already is doing this.

Expect that future APUs may differ in GPU chiplet/tile configs, but not the CPU tile.

So we may get SOC lineup with 8P/16E CPU cores from Intel but with two different GPU tiles.

Secondly.

How much do you have to pay on top of 4060 for CPU with similar performance to PHX? Everything is a trade-off.

For gaming? It's pretty much impossible to make a comparison, since any system that turns on will be better for gaming than Phoenix.
But...
PCPartPicker Part List
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600 3.5 GHz 6-Core Processor ($134.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B550M DS3H AC Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Mushkin Enhanced Redline Stiletto 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($56.94 @ Newegg)
Video Card: MSI VENTUS 2X BLACK OC GeForce RTX 4060 8 GB Video Card ($294.99 @ B&H)
Total: $586.91
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:46 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 8700G 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor ($329.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650M D3HP Micro ATX AM5 Motherboard ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: TEAMGROUP T-Create Expert 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6400 CL40 Memory ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $533.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:47 EST-0500

$50 or so

 

[Glo.]

I agree wholeheartedly.

As ever, true to form. PCB, Memory (which according to you are hugely expensive), associated sub components on PCB, cooler & fan + GPU DIE.

Lets take your claim about Nvidia squeezing AIB margins. Let's assume card margins are zero for AIBs as an absolute worst case. Then AMD has to be making the cost of the GPU card in addition to the margin Nvidia is making on the GPU.

Thats why everyone wants to go the route of integration

What is more expensive to manufacture? Very small substrate with a single die on it, or whole PCB, with connectors, Power delivery connectors, voltage controllers, signal integrity controllers, RAM, PMICs, etc?

 

[Glo.]

For gaming? It's pretty much impossible to make a comparison, since any system that turns on will be better for gaming than Phoenix.
But...
PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600 3.5 GHz 6-Core Processor ($134.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B550M DS3H AC Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Mushkin Enhanced Redline Stiletto 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($56.94 @ Newegg)
Video Card: MSI VENTUS 2X BLACK OC GeForce RTX 4060 8 GB Video Card ($294.99 @ B&H)
Total: $586.91
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:46 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List

$50 or so

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 8700G 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor ($329.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650M D3HP Micro ATX AM5 Motherboard ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: TEAMGROUP T-Create Expert 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6400 CL40 Memory ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $533.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:47 EST-0500

You are looking at where the puck was/is, instead of where it is going.

 

[MrTeal]

You are looking at where the puck was/is, instead of where it is going.

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at.
Are you saying that a lack of viable low end GPUs is a good thing?

Perhaps it is for AMD and board vendors, as upgrades now generally entail a platform change or a move up to an expensive dGPU invalidating the investment you made in an APU vs CPU. I certainly wouldn't say it's good for consumers though.

 

[Glo.]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at.
Are you saying that a lack of viable low end GPUs is a good thing?

Perhaps it is for AMD and board vendors, as upgrades now generally entail a platform change or a move up to an expensive dGPU invalidating the investment you made in an APU vs CPU. I certainly wouldn't say it's good for consumers though.

I thought that you were responding to the first part of my post about separation of APUs from monolithic to chiplet/tile based SOCs.

My bad.

 

[Thunder 57]

For gaming? It's pretty much impossible to make a comparison, since any system that turns on will be better for gaming than Phoenix.
But...
PCPartPicker Part List
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600 3.5 GHz 6-Core Processor ($134.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B550M DS3H AC Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Mushkin Enhanced Redline Stiletto 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($56.94 @ Newegg)
Video Card: MSI VENTUS 2X BLACK OC GeForce RTX 4060 8 GB Video Card ($294.99 @ B&H)
Total: $586.91
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:46 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 8700G 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor ($329.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650M D3HP Micro ATX AM5 Motherboard ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: TEAMGROUP T-Create Expert 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-6400 CL40 Memory ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $533.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-01 10:47 EST-0500

$50 or so

But the 8700G would blow the 5600 out of the water. Plenty of people could use a more powerful with a serviceable iGPU that can also be used for some light gaming. In addition, you are comparing a 65W part to another 65W part plus a 4060 which even at idle will be more power.

If gaming is your first priority, than the first option is better. Just because it isn't exciting for you, doesn't mean it isn't exciting for someone else.

 

[MrTeal]

But the 8700G would blow the 5600 out of the water. Plenty of people could use a more powerful with a serviceable iGPU that can also be used for some light gaming. In addition, you are comparing a 65W part to another 65W part plus a 4060 which even at idle will be more power.

If gaming is your first priority, than the first option is better. Just because it isn't exciting for you, doesn't mean it isn't exciting for someone else.

Never said it wasn't exciting at all for anyone. Quite the opposite, it's a pretty cool APU. My original comment that generated so much feedback was just that neither AMD nor Nvidia seem interested in making GPUs in the $100 range any more, and that's unfortunate. Phoenix absolutely could be a great CPU for someone who needs CPU grunt and wants some serviceable light gaming, but it's the wrong balance for someone who'd want primarily a budget gaming PC especially with the higher platform costs. Current APUs just don't cover all those bases. It'd be cool to see something like a 6C+20CU part, though that might end up being really bandwidth constrained without a big cache. Maybe Strix Point will be that if pricing is okay.

 

[Thunder 57]

Never said it wasn't exciting at all for anyone. Quite the opposite, it's a pretty cool APU. My original comment that generated so much feedback was just that neither AMD nor Nvidia seem interested in making GPUs in the $100 range any more, and that's unfortunate. Phoenix absolutely could be a great CPU for someone who needs CPU grunt and wants some serviceable light gaming, but it's the wrong balance for someone who'd want primarily a budget gaming PC especially with the higher platform costs. Current APUs just don't cover all those bases. It'd be cool to see something like a 6C+20CU part, though that might end up being really bandwidth constrained without a big cache. Maybe Strix Point will be that if pricing is okay.

My guess is because they would have to design another cut down die that would sell for low margins. And $100 seems to idealistic these days. If they could put out something decent for $150-200 that could be interesting. The last time they tried that though look at what we got. The 6400/6500XT and 1650/1630 which were heavily critized. I don't think they want to bother in that market anymore.

At least with AMD you get the APU option. If you want a cost friendly Nvidia card, you are out of luck. Also, AMD may finally be taking APU gaming seriously with Strix Point. How they solve the bandwidth problem will be interesting to see. HBM would be too expensive I think, so if I had to guess I'd say a small amount of Infinity Cache.

 

[hemedans]

Neither AMD nor Nvidia seem interested in competing in the low end market. Unfortunately as Intel has shown there's not really room for someone like an ARM licensee to come in and offer a useable low end GPU, the outlay in developing a Windows driver team is just too great. With all the cutting edge stuff moving to new nodes it'd be great if Nvidia put a small team on it and produced an AD108 die at <100mm², 12SM, and 4GB 64-bit on N6. Put it into an RTX 4030 at 50W and NVS cards for workstations and it'd be a great alternative to a Phoenix APU even in small form factors.

They do release plenty of workstation low-end GPU, but price is not competitive, if you don't mind used you can get them for cheap ebay, P620, P1000, T1000, A2000, T2000 etc.

Before Amd releasing desktop Rdna3, these GPU were paired with Zen2/3 or Intel alternative in Tiny workstation like Lenovo Thinkstation P series.

Upcoming rtx 3050 is 70W, but won't be cheap either.

 

[hemedans]

That market will be filled by APUs.

No more low-end stuff, unless necessary.

Problem here low-end Cpu/Apu they don't bother putting good GPU, like those Mendocino they only have 2CU, even 8300G and 8500G will only have 4CU, low-end 10-15W GPU paired with Mendocino or Intel N100 would do wonders for many people.

 

[Abwx]

One would think that in countries with high incomes price is not that of an issue but that dont seem to be the case at all.

Those past months i did look at german retailer Mindfactory since there s a Tweeter guy that do weekly summaries, and it s obvious that when a price tank by say 20% sales increase by 50-100% if not more, and that s particularly visble for the lowest end of the market.

FI they brought down the 5600G to 99€ and sales surged by a 2-3x factor, same for the 5700X wich was and still is sold 149€ while the 5800X/159€ went out of their stock.

So there a considerable market in the 100-150€ (or $) range even in rich countries, let alone in average and low incomes countries all around the world.

Significant prices reductions for the 7600/7600X produced the same results, look like the recent inflation took its toll in the consumers purchasing power and that a large part of the population is heading for the cheapest PC as possible, selling say 120-150€ parts for AM5 would be not only a sale but also an investment as it s about 100% sure that there will be an upgrade at some point.

 

[jpiniero]

At least with AMD you get the APU option. If you want a cost friendly Nvidia card, you are out of luck. Also, AMD may finally be taking APU gaming seriously with Strix Point. How they solve the bandwidth problem will be interesting to see. HBM would be too expensive I think, so if I had to guess I'd say a small amount of Infinity Cache.

It's probably gonna be awhile before you see another APU released on AM5.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Yeah, the APU "mix" of CPU to GPU has always rubbed me wrong, with 8/16 CPUs being paired with the 12CU part and then both the CPU and GPU being scaled down across the stack.

Even a 6/12 with 12CU part for $30-50 less would be more appealing.

I wonder if APUs will really flower when tile based GPUs really show up. Take one tile (that might not be worth it to put on it's own board) and toss it next to a CPU and bam, there is your entry level GPU combo.

 

[SteinFG]

Yeah, the APU "mix" of CPU to GPU has always rubbed me wrong

AMD should have done something with the steam deck APU, I think. Make it have 14 PCIe 4.0 lanes and DDR5/LPDDR5 suport (instead of only LPDDDR5 and only 12? PCIe lanes). 4C/8T Zen2, 8CU RDNA2, <140mm² N6. Balanced for low-end gaming.

 

[AtenRa]

Nice 8700G review on a SFF case

 

[Shivansps]

I think we are going into socketed LPDDR5/6 next. The problem is time.

 

[FlameTail]

Radeon 780M = Which Nvidia dGPU?

 

[SteinFG]

Radeon 780M = Which dGPU?

looking at reviews, performance similar to RX 6400

 

[jpiniero]

looking at reviews, performance similar to RX 6400

Not really. Maybe in a PCIe 3 system. From Compubase's review the 6400 was slower in Uncharted but on average was 29% faster. The 1650 NS was 46%. For it to be just close either card would have to be really bottlenecked by the VRAM and/or PCIe transfer speeds.