Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[eek2121]

IIRC the original 6400/6500 (XT) received criticism because they only used 4 PCIE lanes, not because they were bad cards.

I think reception would have been better had AMD doubled up on the lane count.

Good to see APUs catching up, but what we really need is a Strix Halo desktop part.

 

[SteinFG]

what we really need is a Strix Halo desktop part.

No we don't. Desktop APUs are not relevant anywhere but low-end, nobody's paying big money for a big APU. It's always better to pair a normal CPU with a normal GPU. Why do some people expect miracles on desktop? that's a graphics processing unit that by design has to use a 128-bit 8gbps (DDR5-8000) bus and share it with the CPU portion. the bandwidth will always be abysmal

 

[Glo.]

Problem here low-end Cpu/Apu they don't bother putting good GPU, like those Mendocino they only have 2CU, even 8300G and 8500G will only have 4CU, low-end 10-15W GPU paired with Mendocino or Intel N100 would do wonders for many people.

Do you really want for 100$ get a performance CPU + GPU combo, when previously you'd have to spend AT LEAST 250$, combined?

150$ worth GPUs will be integrated into 300$-350$ SOCs. Thats how it works, my friends.

 

[Asterox]

Nice 8700G review on a SFF case

MSI Active cooler on M2 slots, and still as ugly as a rotten stump. Long live PCIe 5.0 and huge active coolers. MSI urgently needs to hire Italian designers!

Same price as MSI, but it is not ugly to have a headache.

B650I AORUS ULTRA Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

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A little more expensive, but if it has to be black + good design on M2 Active cooling.

https://pg.asrock.com/MB/AMD/B650E%20PG-ITX%20WiFi/index.asp

Realistically, this cheaper $150 ITX motherboard is enough for most normal users.

A620I AX (rev. 1.0) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ultimate platform for...

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[eek2121]

No we don't. Desktop APUs are not relevant anywhere but low-end, nobody's paying big money for a big APU. It's always better to pair a normal CPU with a normal GPU. Why do some people expect miracles on desktop? that's a graphics processing unit that by design has to use a 128-bit 8gbps (DDR5-8000) bus and share it with the CPU portion. the bandwidth will always be abysmal

I have said this before, but smaller systems are experiencing a surge in popularity and Strix Halo would be perfect for that. If AMD had launched a Zen 4 desktop part with 8-16 cores and a 40CU part, I would personally have bought it.

Also, premium APUs are a thing. They outsell the entirety of AMD’s desktop CPU market. How/where? They are in video game consoles.

 

[FlameTail]

Are there Cinebench 2024 Multi-core numbers for the new Phoenix-2 Ryzen with 2 Zen4 + 4 Zen4C ?

 

[SteinFG]

I have said this before, but smaller systems are experiencing a surge in popularity and Strix Halo would be perfect for that

You can build a 5L sff PC with a 4060 in it, today. No need to wait for anyone, and it's as powerful as 40CUs stuck with the CPU

 

[SteinFG]

Are there Cinebench 2024 Multi-core numbers for the new Phoenix-2 Ryzen with 2 Zen4 + 4 Zen4C ?

By the lack of any info anywhere, it seems like just one 8500G was made, and it's in MaxSun HQ being tortured

 

[MrTeal]

I have said this before, but smaller systems are experiencing a surge in popularity and Strix Halo would be perfect for that. If AMD had launched a Zen 4 desktop part with 8-16 cores and a 40CU part, I would personally have bought it.

Also, premium APUs are a thing. They outsell the entirety of AMD’s desktop CPU market. How/where? They are in video game consoles.

That's what a lot of people wanting a gaming APU want anyway. Really if you could root a Series X/PS5 and install Win11 on it, there would be no reason to need a PC for 95%+ of users including gamers. As SteinFG said though, bandwidth will always be an issue. PS5 has 448GB/s bandwidth, DDR5-6400 at 102.4 is a bit less than a quarter of that. In terms of a reasonable ratio of CPU and GPU power for budget gaming though the consoles are pretty spot on, which should surprise no one since they're explicitly designed for that.

 

[Asterox]

Problem here low-end Cpu/Apu they don't bother putting good GPU, like those Mendocino they only have 2CU, even 8300G and 8500G will only have 4CU, low-end 10-15W GPU paired with Mendocino or Intel N100 would do wonders for many people.

Well, it is not big iGPU no doubt. But it is twice as big, and has a significantly higher frequency compared to the Ryzen 7000 iGPU.For occasional HTPC light gaming, it will be quite ok no doubt.

You won't be killed by lightning, if you occasionally play games even on 2CU iGPU/Ryzen 7000 Desktop series.

 

[hemedans]

Do you really want for 100$ get a performance CPU + GPU combo, when previously you'd have to spend AT LEAST 250$, combined?

150$ worth GPUs will be integrated into 300$-350$ SOCs. Thats how it works, my friends.

Budget Cpu+Gpu have always been under $150, before bitcoin we could buy gt 1030 for less than $80, Evga one was even $50 for long time, that plus i3 which was less than $100 gave more perfomance than Apu of that time. It was common at this time to get PC at same price as Ps4.

Even Laptop with Nvidia Mx series were available for less than $500,

But the point here is Apu give less gpu for lowend, to get full perfomance you have to buy Ryzen 7, if Ryzen 3 had option to have 780M gpu even for the price of Ryzen 5 we wouldn't complain.

 

[Glo.]

Budget Cpu+Gpu have always been under $150, before bitcoin we could buy gt 1030 for less than $80, Evga one was even $50 for long time, that plus i3 which was less than $100 gave more perfomance than Apu of that time. It was common at this time to get PC at same price as Ps4.

Even Laptop with Nvidia Mx series were available for less than $500,

But the point here is Apu give less gpu for lowend, to get full perfomance you have to buy Ryzen 7, if Ryzen 3 had option to have 780M gpu even for the price of Ryzen 5 we wouldn't complain.

To be fair to us both, we talk about the same thing, but from two different perspectives.

Im not talking about 1030 performance levels and segment.

XX50 SKUs - thats what will be consumed by APUs. XX60 in certain scenarios, like Strix Halo.

And yes, I know this is AMD thread, and for some reason we only acknowledge AMD as the only company that builds SOCs, which it isn't. Intel has MUCH saner product segmentation, than AMD, and is walking the same path of CPU+GPU+NPU integration. So even if AMD is currently SELLING APUs with this stupid segmentation, doesn't mean it will be like this always, and doesn't mean that its AMD which will offer products for lower end of the market.

Only after we design higher margin products, expect that low-end products will have its own price segmentation, HOWEVER, we are living in a world of inflation. Don't expect that future is rosy in terms of prices.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

To be fair to us both, we talk about the same thing, but from two different perspectives.

Im not talking about 1030 performance levels and segment.

XX50 SKUs - thats what will be consumed by APUs. XX60 in certain scenarios, like Strix Halo.

And yes, I know this is AMD thread, and for some reason we only acknowledge AMD as the only company that builds SOCs, which it isn't. Intel has MUCH saner product segmentation, than AMD, and is walking the same path of CPU+GPU+NPU integration. So even if AMD is currently SELLING APUs with this stupid segmentation, doesn't mean it will be like this always, and doesn't mean that its AMD which will offer products for lower end of the market.

Only after we design higher margin products, expect that low-end products will have its own price segmentation, HOWEVER, we are living in a world of inflation. Don't expect that future is rosy in terms of prices.

I find this post out of character for you. Are you okay?

I'd love to talk about desktop ARC iGPU, but it seems I'll have to wait. Probably for Gandalf/Battlemage the way it's going. And from what others here have told me about how unlikely ARC desktop iGPU is.

 

[FlameTail]

Gandalf?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Gandalf?

He is a battlemage

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Back on topic: These are primarily for OEMs and big S.I.s. The typical tech site forum dweller is definitely not the target market.

Pepperidge Farm remembers the DIY whinging about not getting Cezanne until months after it was shipping in OEM systems. While they are not desirable to you guys, they are to others, including myself. I have 3 mini-ITX systems and an ASRock deskmini. 2 are not designed for dGPU 2 are. One looks like a DVD player and is meant to blend into a 2000s home entertainment rack. The Deskmini you can VESA mount. APUs are cool and I dig them. My love for iGP technically goes back to my Amiga 500 with Denise, Paula, and Agnus? I built a bunch of systems with the Shuttle MN31N with nForce2 IGP.

My only complaint with the 8600G is the price. Things I like -

Only future upgradeable platform
Current DDR standard
Excellent media features including AV1
HYPR-RX support
Easy to cool
Will play 99.9% of existing PC games great

 

[Shivansps]

Radeon 780M = Which Nvidia dGPU?

Looks better than a GTX1630 but worse than a GTX1650.

 

[Glo.]

I find this post out of character for you. Are you okay?

I'd love to talk about desktop ARC iGPU, but it seems I'll have to wait. Probably for Gandalf/Battlemage the way it's going. And from what others here have told me about how unlikely ARC desktop iGPU is.

What do you mean out of character?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

What do you mean out of character?

Let's not get off in the weeds. If you really want to discuss this shoot me a PM.

 

[Shivansps]

Do you really want for 100$ get a performance CPU + GPU combo, when previously you'd have to spend AT LEAST 250$, combined?

150$ worth GPUs will be integrated into 300$-350$ SOCs. Thats how it works, my friends.

Thats not how it works, competition is what drive the prices, and currently AMD has no competition in desktop APUs so they can do whatever they want.

If we are start seeing competition from Intel and maybe even from ARM SoC one day then things may change.

 

[Hitman928]

He is a battlemage

Would be smart by Intel. That way, when it is delayed, Intel can say that it is not late, nor is it early, but arrived precisely when it was meant to.

 

[jpiniero]

Thats not how it works, competition is what drive the prices, and currently AMD has no competition in desktop APUs so they can do whatever they want.

The competition is really the lowest of the low end dGPUs.

My guess is that once AMD goes chiplets, that you will only mostly see the basic IGP on desktop. Perhaps they will do better IGP models, but those will command a couple hundred premium on top. Maybe fill the void once sub-$400 dGPUs are gone.

At least those won't be compromising on dGPU gaming performance like Phoenix does.

 

[misuspita]

They just announced the halo, why not continue to have puny igpu at one end and a... Well... Halo at the other? I'd pay for a halo chip, with gobs of cache and CU's...

 

[Thunder 57]

I have said this before, but smaller systems are experiencing a surge in popularity and Strix Halo would be perfect for that. If AMD had launched a Zen 4 desktop part with 8-16 cores and a 40CU part, I would personally have bought it.

Also, premium APUs are a thing. They outsell the entirety of AMD’s desktop CPU market. How/where? They are in video game consoles.

I think MS and Sony made it a point that AMD not sell a high end APU for competition reasons. AMD is in a more powerful position now, so maybe that is why we may see powerful APU's.

 

[misuspita]

Or maybe it was time limited. Don't sell over x GPU power for 5 years...