Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

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Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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780M is heavily bandwidth constrained. I think Phoenix already would be better off with 16 MB of SLC cache.

Strix Point standard will only have bigger problems feeding those GPU cores, considering there will 33% more than it is in 780M. 8 CUs in 760M are 10% slower than 780M despite having 33% less CUs than 780M.

What size on the die was 16 MB IC on 6500XT? Anyone remembers?
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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If you look back the 2200G/2400G were a huge thing back in the day. so did the 3200G/3400G.

It started with the 4000 series being mia, and the 5000 series being meh.
And im still conviced that back in the day AMD didnt like the 5600G/5700G to be compared to the older APUs.
Yes iGPU was very good, but the CPU part was a little too weak on the Samsung 14nm back.

For AMD TSMC 7nm was a very big turning point. 4000G as first on 7nm, and 5000G they have much lower power consumption+very big improvement in CPU performance. R5 3400G CPU part is slower vs R3 4300G/R3 4350G, or even slower compared to the R3 3300X.If someone uninformed is reading, R5 4600G/R5 4650G/R5 4500=identical CPU part and identical CPU performance.


Below link, it's absurd or funny when you see the difference in CPU/system power consumption R5 3400G vs 4000G series in Cinebench test.R5 2400G has a bit higher power consumption.It would be somewhere around 120-125W, for the whole system in the same test situation.

 
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MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
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ehm i dont like the Hardware Unboxed review, the 5700G results waaay to low to me, the 5700G there is barely any faster than the 2CU RDNA2 igp on the 7700.
I wouldn't say that, outside of maybe CS2 where they're getting half decent framerates and the CPU might be having more effect.
BG3 +54%
CS2 +15%
Fortnite +68%
CP2077 +70%
F1 2023 + 87%
Spiderman +52%
R&C:RA +42%
CoD:MW3 +67%
In the non-CS2 games, the 5700G is 63% faster than the 7700. It's 8 Vega CU vs 2 RDNA2, but if my napkin math is correct the GPU in the 5700G has less than twice the FLOPS of the 7700 and only 56% of the memory bandwidth of the AM5 part with their DDR4-3600 and DDR5-6400 kits.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
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I wouldn't say that, outside of maybe CS2 where they're getting half decent framerates and the CPU might be having more effect.
BG3 +54%
CS2 +15%
Fortnite +68%
CP2077 +70%
F1 2023 + 87%
Spiderman +52%
R&C:RA +42%
CoD:MW3 +67%
In the non-CS2 games, the 5700G is 63% faster than the 7700. It's 8 Vega CU vs 2 RDNA2, but if my napkin math is correct the GPU in the 5700G has less than twice the FLOPS of the 7700 and only 56% of the memory bandwidth of the AM5 part with their DDR4-3600 and DDR5-6400 kits.
Only game I have in common to test is Spiderman so I loaded that up on the 5700G. I am not using the +200MHz PBO right now, but the iGPU is 2400MHz with CL20 4133MT/s. Loaded a night save and got almost identical performance to Aussie Steve's. Loaded a midday save and ran and webslinged around the Radio City Music Hall and Rockefeller Plaza area. Averaged 35 with 29 low. So his average isn't far off mine, but his 1% suffered more. That makes the 8700G basically double in this game.

Of course you'd be silly to play the game on lowest 1080, it looks terribad. After testing his way, I set it to medium with 8X AF. XeSS is broken, it tanked to low 20s regardless of settings. FSR 2.1 turned in roughly the same performance as lowest with a overall better IQ. But it's the built-in upscaler that surprisingly turned in the best performance and visuals. Ultra quality on an 1080 60 TV is the best experience. Far better than lowest with slightly better fps.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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Well for now searchs for 8500G reviews returns either 8500GT reviews or Casio FX 8500G reviews lol.
Close enough, or a CPU that almost no one bought next to the Ryzen 5 1600 or Ryzen 5 2600 competition. :innocent:
 
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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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I wouldn't say that, outside of maybe CS2 where they're getting half decent framerates and the CPU might be having more effect.
BG3 +54%
CS2 +15%
Fortnite +68%
CP2077 +70%
F1 2023 + 87%
Spiderman +52%
R&C:RA +42%
CoD:MW3 +67%
In the non-CS2 games, the 5700G is 63% faster than the 7700. It's 8 Vega CU vs 2 RDNA2, but if my napkin math is correct the GPU in the 5700G has less than twice the FLOPS of the 7700 and only 56% of the memory bandwidth of the AM5 part with their DDR4-3600 and DDR5-6400 kits.
Unless something changed with recent drivers, the 5700G used to provide around 80-100% more perf than the 2CU RDNA2.
This is the 5600G that is on avg 5-10% slower

They are running the right configuration, dual rank DDR4-3600, it dosent get any better than that. So im suprised the poor performance vs the 2CU RDNA2.
 
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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Oh and the launch was worldwide, this didnt happened since the 3400G/3200G. I already have a 8700G, 8600G, 5700X3D and a 5600GT in my hands. But the 8500G and the 5500GT are MIA.
 
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Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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Close enough, or a CPU that almost no one bought next to the Ryzen 5 competition. :innocent:
The I5-8400 was popular here, but then again all I5 x4xxx were tbh. Until the Ryzen 3/5 APU came along and petty much ended the I3 and I5 reign. Raven Ridge did that. Now Intel recovered ground because Ryzen 3 APUs petty much not longer exist anymore after the 3200G was discontinued.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
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Unless something changed with recent drivers, the 5700G used to provide around 80-100% more perf than the 2CU RDNA2.
This is the 5600G that is on avg 5-10% slower

They are running the right configuration, dual rank DDR4-3600, it dosent get any better than that. So im suprised the poor performance vs the 2CU RDNA2.
Yeah, the average of those ones is 80%, so it is a difference from 63%. That review had DDR5-6400 vs 6000, so 6-7% more memory bandwidth there which probably helps HUB's numbers. There's games in there where the average framerates at 17 and 10 FPS though, I wouldn't read too much much into it being a bit different that another review showing the 5700G being relatively 20% faster at easier games and settings.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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So, based on rough estimation 32 MB of Infinity Cache that CPU and GPU could connect to would cost another 2 bln transistors of N4 process.

Phoenix die would bloat up to around 192 mm2, from 178 mm2.

Its hilariously bad that AMD ommited this from PHX, and Strix Point will have even larger problem feeding the cores in that APU, without IC.

Unless they figure out a X3D part, then maybe its a different conversation.

APUs already need additional cache, otherwise - they will be starved for resources. System memory is not fast enough.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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The I5-8400 was popular here, but then again all I5 x4xxx were tbh. Until the Ryzen 3/5 APU came along and petty much ended the I3 and I5 reign. Raven Ridge did that. Now Intel recovered ground because Ryzen 3 APUs petty much not longer exist anymore after the 3200G was discontinued.
I forgot to add Ryzen 5 processor models, now i edited the post. I was primarily thinking about the initial first Ryzen R5 1000/2000 series 6/12 CPU competition.
 

Kepler_L2

Senior member
Sep 6, 2020
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So, based on rough estimation 32 MB of Infinity Cache that CPU and GPU could connect to would cost another 2 bln transistors of N4 process.

Phoenix die would bloat up to around 192 mm2, from 178 mm2.

Its hilariously bad that AMD ommited this from PHX, and Strix Point will have even larger problem feeding the cores in that APU, without IC.

Unless they figure out a X3D part, then maybe its a different conversation.

APUs already need additional cache, otherwise - they will be starved for resources. System memory is not fast enough.
Unfortunately certain people want bigger and bigger NPUs so MALL gets left behind.
 
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Shivansps

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It is still not clear to me why we need an NPU at all.

I forgot to add Ryzen 5 processor models, now i edited the post. I was primarily thinking about the initial first Ryzen R5 1000/2000 series 6/12 CPU competition.
IGPs were needed for that. Raven Ridge not only ended I3 and I5 reign but it also killed the entire low end line of GPUs... before Raven there were a large market of crap GPUs, GT710, GT 730, the GT1030... Nvidia has not launched another GPU in that area, simply because it would be need to be too expensive in order to outperform the APUs.
 

jpiniero

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Oct 1, 2010
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It is still not clear to me why we need an NPU at all.

AI hype

IGPs were needed for that. Raven Ridge not only ended I3 and I5 reign but it also killed the entire low end line of GPUs... before Raven there were a large market of crap GPUs, GT710, GT 730, the GT1030... Nvidia has not launched another GPU in that area, simply because it would be need to be too expensive in order to outperform the APUs.

They are releasing the 3050 6 GB soon although it won't be any kind of great deal if it launches at $179. But yes that should be the last of the sub-$300 dGPUs from nVidia.
 

Thunder 57

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2007
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AI hype



They are releasing the 3050 6 GB soon although it won't be any kind of great deal if it launches at $179. But yes that should be the last of the sub-$300 dGPUs from nVidia.

They should call it the 3050 JE (Joke Edition). Agree about the AI hype but it seems completely useless on CPU's so far.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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The I5-8400 was popular here, but then again all I5 x4xxx were tbh. Until the Ryzen 3/5 APU came along and petty much ended the I3 and I5 reign. Raven Ridge did that. Now Intel recovered ground because Ryzen 3 APUs petty much not longer exist anymore after the 3200G was discontinued.
Mindfactory again, when we have available DiY sales figures. i5 8500 sales figures are very miserable, i5 8400 did a little better. But that's all weak, compared to two very popular Ryzen 5 models without iGPU.

R5 1600 launched in Aprili 2017
R5 2600 launched in April 2018
i5 8400 was launched in October 2017
i5 8500 was February 2018






iGPU did not help i5 at all, it's very hard to swallow a 6/6 CPU when the competition offers a 6/12 CPU for the same or lower price. From the point of view of a well-informed buyer or a DIY buyer, R5 2600 drove the nails into the coffin of all Intel i5 6/6 processors. :mask:

R5 2400G and R3 2200G launched in February 2018
R5 3400G and R3 3200G launched in July 2019





 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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SteinFG

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Dec 29, 2021
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Now available directly from AMD -

https://shop-us-en.amd.com/processors/

In stock at Newegg -

https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-5-8600g-ryzen-5-8000-series/p/N82E16819113814

Looks like they are for sale at Amazon U.S. too.

Man it's tempting. However, AMD's pattern the last few years has been to launch at an inflated price then have a price drop a few months later when sales have dried up. I'll wait it out as I have to get a new board and ram too.
Yep, Newegg has new 5000 series processors too, and 8700G/8600G. The onl thing not in stock is 8500G
 

dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
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It is still not clear to me why we need an NPU at all.
If there were any software support, it would be excellent to have the ability to run AI completely separate from graphics. Currently, running stable diffusion pegs your GPU and incurs quite a visible hit to desktop rendering performance; Things like watching youtube becomes a lot less responsive when using GPU acceleration. AI adoption across the market is inevitable as content generation gets added to more programs and expanded upon. Disaggregating execution from across the SOC into an NPU frees up a lot of system resources.

I also would imagine it is more power efficient, but I truly don't know for sure.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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As we can see, the R7 8700G now comes with an AMD Wraith Spire CPU cooler.More precisely, it is a new cheaper version of the Spire cooler without the copper core.Wraith Stealth is small, but it would probably be enough for any new 65W TDP APU.
2024-01-31_212716.jpg


 

hemedans

Senior member
Jan 31, 2015
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It is still not clear to me why we need an NPU at all.


IGPs were needed for that. Raven Ridge not only ended I3 and I5 reign but it also killed the entire low end line of GPUs... before Raven there were a large market of crap GPUs, GT710, GT 730, the GT1030... Nvidia has not launched another GPU in that area, simply because it would be need to be too expensive in order to outperform the APUs.
They did release, it's just not popular and don't offer good value for money, GTX 1630, which is worse than 1050ti
 

Thibsie

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2017
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As we can see, the R7 8700G now comes with an AMD Wraith Spire CPU cooler.More precisely, it is a new cheaper version of the Spire cooler without the copper core.Wraith Stealth is small, but it would probably be enough for any new 65W TDP APU.
View attachment 92851


Yeah, big title 'AMD cuts costs' (or Intel I don't care). What's that sort of clickbait crap is that?
I miss proper serious websites from a decade (or more) ago...