Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[RnR_au]

Both AMD and Intel are going to start feeling the pressure from ARM offerings in the next 2 years, they have no choice.

FWIW, put RISC-V into the ring as well. Google is pushing it hard;

Lars Bergstrom, Android's director of engineering, wants RISC-V to be seen as a "tier-1 platform" in Android, which would put it on par with Arm. That's a big change from just six months ago. Bergstrom says getting optimized Android builds on RISC-V will take "a lot of work" and outlined a roadmap that will take "a few years" to come to fruition, but AOSP started to land official RISC-V patches back in September.

Source

From a Hacker News comment discussing the article;

>How far away is RISC-V from being competitive with ARM at a technical level? Or is it already there?

RISC-V caught up, key functionality wise, with the set of extensions ratified in December 2021.

There's key advantages to RISC-V, licensing aside. It leverages industry experience and avoids many pitfalls thanks to not dragging any baggage.

Field experts such as Jim Keller sing praises about it.

Source

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Both AMD and Intel are going to start feeling the pressure from ARM offerings in the next 2 years, they have no choice. The fact that OpenGL ES got killed by Vulkan and now ARM gpus are targeting the same api that works for mobile and desktop OS is not a small detail.

I saw what the RK3588/RK3588S can do, and its the first time i can truly say i found a ARM chip that could be definately be used for desktop/notebook usage, and thats includes console gaming emulation and even light native gaming. And thats a basic 4 core A76 with 4 A55 with a Mali G610 x4. Its really old at this point. They cant sleep with GPU performance or they will start lossing market in notebooks.

Thanks for sharing with us that for you even an older SoC with ~409.6 GFLOPs is good enough.

Here is something more usable for comparison purposes. Got It from notebookcheck.

	Mali-G610 MP6	Xclipse 920	Mali-G710 MP10	Adreno 740	A16 GPU 5-Core	Rembrandt 680M	RTX 3050 Ti 45W
3DMark Wild Life Unlimited	5632	7890	9770	14023	12429	16072
3DMark Wild Life Extreme Unlimited	1366	1935	2650	3733	3265	3960	9340

The problem with this test is that It runs only for 1 minute, but in laptop these SoCs wouldn't be limited by heat dissipation.

Adreno 740 is very close to Rembrandt in this test. I checked Its specs, and It turns out It has 2560ALU vs 768ALU in 680M, but of course clockspeed is only 680-719MHz. TFlops are very similar for both of them.
Phoenix will be faster than this, and I am not sure Qualcomm will come with another significantly more powerful SoC this year.

This shows Qualcomm has a pretty powerful SoC Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, so where are laptops with this SoC?
The only one with ARM + Windows are Samsung Galaxy Book S or Microsoft Surface, and they have a weaker SoC, compatibility with x86 APPs is still a serious problem.
Here is the latest Microsoft laptop with ARM review. PCmag
Until they fix the compatibility issues and actually release some powerful Laptops, AMD or Intel don't need to worry.
Unless I can play my Steam library on an ARM chip, this is for me a dead platform and It won't matter how powerful It is.

 

[Shivansps]

You need to remember that the reason why im suprised with the RK3588, it is because it is supposed to be a cheap entry level chip, the kind of cpu that goes into your cheap smart tv or Raspberry PI SBC clones, and anyone who knows me here know ive been very exceptical of ARM being a threat to X86 because you can never make any big mark in the market with ultra expensive premium chips. You need something that can get to the masses. Not a ultra super mega premium device. Thats why the SoC Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 is going to fail, it has the performance, in fact unless im wrong, that one is not using small cores what is great for performance, but at that price AND compatibility issues? forget it!

The Orange PI 5 with the RK3588S and 4GB LPDDR4X was just a $60 preoder two months ago, and is the first time i see that kind of CPU/GPU performance from a ARM chip being OK for a entry level/office desktop pc that can even do some gaming on, you cant compare that with a top level RMB and say its not good enoght, thats not the point. What i say is that they have no choice but to go bigger because they are going to start feeling the pressure in the following years, we havent had this kind of competition since the 90s.

In fact i would like to see how the RK3588S compares to the entry level Athlon and Celeron mobile options because it has to be very close.

 

[maddie]

FWIW, put RISC-V into the ring as well. Google is pushing it hard;

Source

From a Hacker News comment discussing the article;
Source

The chip wars means RISC-V will be pushed hard internationally, open source and such.

 

[moinmoin]

I saw what the RK3588/RK3588S can do, and its the first time i can truly say i found a ARM chip that could be definately be used for desktop/notebook usage, and thats includes console gaming emulation and even light native gaming.

I'm not sure what's news to you about that last part, Raspberry Pi has been used for ages to build console gaming emulation toys.

Looking at PassMark the RK3588's CPU performance is most comparable with AMD's 3300U.

Rockchip RK3588 vs AMD Ryzen 3 3300U [cpubenchmark.net] by PassMark Software

www.cpubenchmark.net

That's not bad at all, but it's still lowish performance from more than 3 years ago.

I don't disagree that it's exciting, but in this thread we are talking about Phoenix, Zen 4 and RDNA3, not Zen 1 and Vega. Maybe you should start a new thread about that topic?

 

[Kaluan]

I don't disagree that it's exciting, but in this thread we are talking about Phoenix, Zen 4 and RDNA3, not Zen 1 and Vega. Maybe you should start a new thread about that topic?

Don't worry, in less than 12 hours this thread will completely "derail" back on track. 😅

Still pissy that the on stage CES stuff is towards the night rather than morning.
It's basically a January 5th thing for the rest of the world.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

You need to remember that the reason why im suprised with the RK3588, it is because it is supposed to be a cheap entry level chip, the kind of cpu that goes into your cheap smart tv or Raspberry PI SBC clones, and anyone who knows me here know ive been very exceptical of ARM being a threat to X86 because you can never make any big mark in the market with ultra expensive premium chips. You need something that can get to the masses. Not a ultra super mega premium device. Thats why the SoC Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 is going to fail, it has the performance, in fact unless im wrong, that one is not using small cores what is great for performance, but at that price AND compatibility issues? forget it!

The Orange PI 5 with the RK3588S and 4GB LPDDR4X was just a $60 preoder two months ago, and is the first time i see that kind of CPU/GPU performance from a ARM chip being OK for a entry level/office desktop pc that can even do some gaming on, you cant compare that with a top level RMB and say its not good enoght, thats not the point. What i say is that they have no choice but to go bigger because they are going to start feeling the pressure in the following years, we havent had this kind of competition since the 90s.

In fact i would like to see how the RK3588S compares to the entry level Athlon and Celeron mobile options because it has to be very close.

Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 still has the small cores. It has 1x Cortex-X3, 2x Cortex-A715, 2x Cortex-A710 and 3x Cortex-A510.

You are talking how we need something for masses, but until Microsoft doesn't fix the compatibility, then people won't buy It, doesn't matter If we are talking about an expensive Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 or a cheap Orange PI 5. If Microsoft fixes It, and It will be finally usable, and there will be cheap ARM based laptops, then AMD or Intel will feel the heat.

Orange PI 5 8GB is currently for €96.21 at Amazon.

Orange PI 5 IGP -> Mali G610 4MP:
3DMark Wild Life Unlimited: 5632/3*2 = ~3755

I found a laptop with Lucienne based R3 5300U 4C8T, 6CU Vega, 8GB + 256GB SSD for €352. Here is the review.
3DMark Wild Life Unlimited: ~5587
This Lucienne is 49% faster.
I didn't check the CPU performance.

What would It cost If this was put into a laptop? Hard to tell. I found Umax VisionBook 14WQ LTE with Snapdragon 7c 2C+4c 4GB, 128GB SSD for €286.90.

PHX2 would be an interesting comparison, although I am not sure how cheap It will be.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Don't worry, in less than 12 hours this thread will completely "derail" back on track. 😅

Still pissy that the on stage CES stuff is towards the night rather than morning.
It's basically a January 5th thing for the rest of the world.

I was also thinking It will be today, and It turns out I will be sleeping during the show.
At least, when I wake up everything will be known.

 

[Mopetar]

That might be true in the long term and 5 years into the future but that's different from the 50%+ margins merchant chip vendors get and at launch!

The same hardware in PC will cost upwards of 50% or more.

It's a little different for the console makers though. As I understand it, Sony and Microsoft are buying the wafers from TSMC, though I'm not completely clear on this.

Although they're paying AMD for some of the technology and development work to design the chip, AMD has likely been doing this for little above their own cost since they would need to do a lot of it anyway to develop their own products.

The console SoCs don't go through as many levels of markup as a result. With a GPU you have a retailer markup, the AIB markup, the manufacture (AMD/NV) markup, the fab markup, and ultimately any markup by the equipment and material suppliers to the fab. If you're buying a PC there's the markup from the company that assembled the components as well.

I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that the console manufacturers have worked out a deal with retailers where they sell the consoles at cost and only get a markup on the games and other things like controllers. Big box stores don't care since it gets people in the door and they might buy some other things or they create bundles to be able to sell more things where they do make money. The smaller game shops generally don't care since most of their profit is used games or other stuff they sell in the store.

If all of that is true, the consoles are just better at keeping additional costs from being passed on to the customer. Even though not every part of that chain is reaping massive margins, even 5-10% starts to compound pretty quickly. I think that in the past Sony even used to fab their own chips, or at least some of them, so that'd be another level of cost removed.

But the model for consoles can only work this way because the software that can be run on them is controlled by the manufacturers of the consoles.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It's a little different for the console makers though. As I understand it, Sony and Microsoft are buying the wafers from TSMC, though I'm not completely clear on this.

Although they're paying AMD for some of the technology and development work to design the chip, AMD has likely been doing this for little above their own cost since they would need to do a lot of it anyway to develop their own products.

Isn't It actually AMD who buys the wafers from TSMC? Then sells the made dies to Sony and Microsoft?

 

[Hitman928]

Isn't It actually AMD who buys the wafers from TSMC? Then sells the made dies to Sony and Microsoft?

Yes. Other chip suppliers have done it differently in the past but AMD sells chips for consoles, not IP or designs that the console makers then manufacture.

 

[Mopetar]

Isn't It actually AMD who buys the wafers from TSMC? Then sells the made dies to Sony and Microsoft?

I wasn't sure. I've heard both ways. Maybe AMD has an agreement to allot both Sony and Microsoft a minimum number at their cost which allows AMD to buy more wafers from TSMC to get a volume discount.

That would let AMD be a little more flexible as if either Sony or MS wanted to scale back, AMD would be able to just make more of their own products.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

@Mopetar
Exactly that was their plan. And in the beginning, the majority of AMD's 7nm contingent went straight into the console chips. But this was direly needed for a good contract and competitive costs for Zen2 in the first place.
I still find it crazy how many Zen2 CCD dies you could produce from the silicon of just one console APU - and these were sold in a 500 USD product.

 

[Doug S]

That would let AMD be a little more flexible as if either Sony or MS wanted to scale back, AMD would be able to just make more of their own products.

True, but that's only useful in an environment where AMD had the ability to sell more. The economic conditions that would cause Sony & MS to pull back on orders for consoles would cause sales of x86 PCs and servers to fall as well.

 

[Shivansps]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 still has the small cores. It has 1x Cortex-X3, 2x Cortex-A715, 2x Cortex-A710 and 3x Cortex-A510.

You are talking how we need something for masses, but until Microsoft doesn't fix the compatibility, then people won't buy It, doesn't matter If we are talking about an expensive Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 or a cheap Orange PI 5. If Microsoft fixes It, and It will be finally usable, and there will be cheap ARM based laptops, then AMD or Intel will feel the heat.

Orange PI 5 8GB is currently for €96.21 at Amazon.

Orange PI 5 IGP -> Mali G610 4MP:
3DMark Wild Life Unlimited: 5632/3*2 = ~3755

I found a laptop with Lucienne based R3 5300U 4C8T, 6CU Vega, 8GB + 256GB SSD for €352. Here is the review.
3DMark Wild Life Unlimited: ~5587
This Lucienne is 49% faster.
I didn't check the CPU performance.

What would It cost If this was put into a laptop? Hard to tell. I found Umax VisionBook 14WQ LTE with Snapdragon 7c 2C+4c 4GB, 128GB SSD for €286.90.

PHX2 would be an interesting comparison, although I am not sure how cheap It will be.

Oh right, i was thinking of the 8CX Gen 3.

The Pinebook Pro with a RK3399 and 4GB is $220, i would guess about $250 with the RK3588 and 8GB. Maybe less if competition kicks in.

If Silicon starts to come, Microsoft will be forced to reconsider.

i think it will be better to discuss this somewere else, the point was that ARM is starting to catch up with both CPU and GPU perf, even if they are still not there yet, the Rk3588 should not be compared to a Ryzen because its more on the ballpark of a Celeron, Pentium or Athlon. It is also ancient tech at this point...

 

[Heartbreaker]

CES announcement on the new AMD Mobile parts. The HS parts sound like the interesting ones (Up to 12 RDNA 3 CUs), they also highlight Ryzen AI. Sounds like a VERY nice APU, though getting one for DIY will likely be borderline impossible:

AMD reveals Ryzen 7000 mobile series, up to 16-cores Zen4 with Ryzen 9 7945HX - VideoCardz.com

AMD announces Ryzen 7000: a mix of all architectures There is no other way to say this, but Ryzen 7000 mobile lineup is a mess. The new series will include Zen2, Zen3, Zen3+ and Zen4 CPU microarchitectures under a single product lineup. To makes matters worse, the series will also include Vega...

videocardz.com

 

[Exist50]

CES announcement on the new AMD Mobile parts. The HS parts sound like the interesting ones (Up to 12 RDNA 3 CUs), they also highlight Ryzen AI. Sounds like a VERY nice APU, though getting one for DIY will likely be borderline impossible:

AMD reveals Ryzen 7000 mobile series, up to 16-cores Zen4 with Ryzen 9 7945HX - VideoCardz.com

AMD announces Ryzen 7000: a mix of all architectures There is no other way to say this, but Ryzen 7000 mobile lineup is a mess. The new series will include Zen2, Zen3, Zen3+ and Zen4 CPU microarchitectures under a single product lineup. To makes matters worse, the series will also include Vega...

videocardz.com

Interesting that it's only the higher wattage chips for now. Same with Dragon Range, of course. But then they talk about "ultrathin" devices? Kinda odd.

 

[itsmydamnation]

Interesting that it's only the higher wattage chips for now. Same with Dragon Range, of course. But then they talk about "ultrathin" devices? Kinda odd.

Eh, it's the same as every other AMD laptop release the hx comes before U.

 

[tamz_msc]

Eh, it's the same as every other AMD laptop release the hx comes before U.

And finding a laptop with the U chip will be like trying to find a unicorn.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Sounds like a VERY nice APU, though getting one for DIY will likely be borderline impossible:

Don't you like a challenge?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

The great news is that Phoenix has 8MB L2 + 32MB L3 cache and 10% higher base frequency.
Phoenix HS paired with dGPU makes the IGP kinda pointless.

>250 design wins sounds great until you realize It includes everything(Mendocino, Rembrandt, Barcelo, Phoenix and Dragon Range).

+34% in CB R23 over i7-1280P means 11852-13504 * 1.34 = 15882-18095
Not bad.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Phoenix dieshot. I wonder If IGP has access to 32MB L3. Barely any info about It except that is 12CU RDNA3.

 

[Tigerick]

AMD Ryzen™ Mobile Processors with AMD Radeon™ Graphics | AMD

Specs of 7000M CPU are up....

Die Size of PP is 178mm2 with 25 billion transistors, pretty big

Wait a minute, L3 cache still remains 16MB?

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Phoenix dieshot. I wonder If IGP has access to 32MB L3. Barely any info about It except that is 12CU RDNA3.
View attachment 73941

Quite unlikely. The CCX looks to be a carbon copy of Raphael. They would have needed quite a lot of re-engineering for this.
Now that we know that AMD kept the L3 cache size from Raphael, PHX2 makes even more sense.

AMD Ryzen™ Mobile Processors with AMD Radeon™ Graphics | AMD

Specs of 7000M CPU are up....

Die Size of PP is 178mm2 with 25 billion transistors, pretty big

So my 190mm2 wasn't too far off 😉

/edit: All in all I am rather disappointed, they they did not show any specific numbers for Phoenix Point regarding performance and efficiency.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Found some performance comparison for Phoenix:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1610830050726658049