You seem to know more than every hardware rewiewer out there huh !!!!!!!!!! thats strange Zephyer what is it you do ? Oh your still in college that explains it never mind .
<< 2.1 gig bandwidth DDR to 3.2 gig bandwidth RDram hmmmmmm thats 50% LOL!!!!!!!!! >>
so you think bandwidth is everything... how abut latencies? isn't this another of your halftruths?
Know I don't but I do think that all sytems have to give something to get something. Why is you think that DDR has done so little for the Athlon platform ??? In theory it should of picked it up alot more don't you think ??
<< You seem to know more than every hardware rewiewer out there huh !!!!!!!!!! thats strange Zephyer what is it you do ? Oh your still in college that explains it never mind . >>
"Every hardware reviewer" what kind of a statement is this?... if you wish to challenge my statements PLEASE do so in a technical manner instead of referring to some fluff source ike "every hardware reviewer"
BTW FYI I'm not in college, please get your facts straight!
(gee how many times do I have to say this *LOL*)<< Know I don't but I do think that all sytems have to give something to get something. Why is you think that DDR has done so little for the Athlon platform ??? In theory it should of picked it up alot more don't you think ?? >>
No not really, people just as usual set their expactations too high. Granted the product was overhyped (what today isn't?) AMD has to keep up with the huge Intel hypegenerator to stay in business. However Fact remains DDR SDRAM already at this native state offers a healthy increase in performance even on software that doesn't take much advantage of this increased bandwidth. If you turn to application that does, like professional OpenGL rendering and such you will see the huge increases people were expecting. To say that DDR has done little for the AMD platform is quite frankly a very premature statement.
well explain to me why the P-4 takes such great advantage of Rdram in memory intensive apps but the tbird really doesn't with DDR ???? the gauges all point in the same direction and it isn't DDR. I'm not saying that rdram in its current state is perfect but it has tons of potential and I just don't see any advantage to ddr other than price. I truelly believe as things scale up that it will dissapeer. You have to remember just as much as Rambus had its reasons to hype up RDdram all the major Sdram manufacturers have the same reasons to hype up DDR as the end all when I just think its the Last Leg for there tooling and they want to put off the capital expediture as long as posible.
<< well explain to me why the P-4 takes such great advantage of Rdram in memory intensive apps but the tbird really doesn't with DDR ???? the gauges all point in the same direction and it isn't DDR. I'm not saying that rdram in its current state is perfect but it has tons of potential and I just don't see any advantage to ddr other than price. I truelly believe as things scale up that it will dissapeer. You have to remember just as much as Rambus had its reasons to hype up RDdram all the major Sdram manufacturers have the same reasons to hype up DDR as the end all when I just think its the Last Leg for there tooling and they want to put off the capital expediture as long as posible. >>
I'd be more than happy to.. the apps you are referring to are apps which primarely care about getting huge streams of data from the ram, for these RDRAM is from a purely technical point of view good. The same reason why RDRAM is good for the PSX2. However these apps are few and far between and one of the things that has made the X86 PC great is it's flexibility. DDR SDRAM may get outpreformed by RDRAM by a small margin in certain apps I don't think I ever denied that, but overall DDR is a better solution.
Right now there are two apps I know of where the P4 shines, 1) Q3A in resolutions lower than anybody care to actually play and 2)FlasK MPEG4 which is optimized for the P4's SSE2 specifically while the Tbird doesn't even get to use 3Dnow! or the advanced x87 FPU.
Neither of these two gives me reason enough to even consider looking ata P4 over the much cheaper Tbird. In fact I think what makes most sense right now is a KT133A based Tbird/Duron, and that's what I generally recommend people to buy, If you really want to get the best of the best go for a DDR Tbird, it will still be cheaper than going for a less preforming P4.
Man get your facts straight dude your just spreading complete Bull here. AMD and Intel were both given the code and supplied the reveiwer with Optimized software for there products in Flask and the P-4 STOMPED the T-bird.
Quote from Toms
"Of course the comparison between Pentium 4 and Athlon, which is using software that is only optimized by Intel is not able to provide a fair picture of the two processors. That's why I had asked AMD to provide me with a FlasK version that is optimized for Athlon. Alexander Goodrich and Sean Stanek, who are both software engineers that are involved with AMD-optimizations, had already started the whole issue shortly after the publication of my last P4-article. The code that I finally ended up using comes from the two"
I will also add they took allot more time to optimize there code then Intel did LOL!!!!!!!
Another tbid from tom for what its worth
"This time I presented you four different benchmarks and in three of them Pentium 4 came out victorious. Basing a whole article on those four benchmarks would automatically have to lead to a favorable review of Pentium 4."
Quote from Toms
"Of course the comparison between Pentium 4 and Athlon, which is using software that is only optimized by Intel is not able to provide a fair picture of the two processors. That's why I had asked AMD to provide me with a FlasK version that is optimized for Athlon. Alexander Goodrich and Sean Stanek, who are both software engineers that are involved with AMD-optimizations, had already started the whole issue shortly after the publication of my last P4-article. The code that I finally ended up using comes from the two"
I will also add they took allot more time to optimize there code then Intel did LOL!!!!!!!
Another tbid from tom for what its worth
"This time I presented you four different benchmarks and in three of them Pentium 4 came out victorious. Basing a whole article on those four benchmarks would automatically have to lead to a favorable review of Pentium 4."
These facts below lead me to belive when the software is designed to support the p-4 it is going to rule the roost in more than just mhz and a few apps. The track record of both companies is clear when it comes to helping software developers to support there products Intel is way better than.....Do nothing at all but sell them cheap AMD.
since we're quoting randomly from Tom's hardware .. here ya go NOS
<< Which software maker would supply its customers with a new and free version of its product, although it only took a re-compilation? Which software maker will even bother to do that for the time being? After all Pentium 4 systems are very expensive and thus not exactly widely spread. We know that Intel has a very forceful way of 'convincing' other industries to follow them. We will see how much power Intel has right now. For the time being Intel is in the same situation AMD used to be with K6-2 and 3D Now! Without proper support of the software industry it will be hard to make a product such as Pentium 4 successful. >>
besides I haven't seen Tom use the AMD optimized code anywhere please give me link to i
(this is what I'm talking about http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=483 )
<< Which software maker would supply its customers with a new and free version of its product, although it only took a re-compilation? Which software maker will even bother to do that for the time being? After all Pentium 4 systems are very expensive and thus not exactly widely spread. We know that Intel has a very forceful way of 'convincing' other industries to follow them. We will see how much power Intel has right now. For the time being Intel is in the same situation AMD used to be with K6-2 and 3D Now! Without proper support of the software industry it will be hard to make a product such as Pentium 4 successful. >>
besides I haven't seen Tom use the AMD optimized code anywhere please give me link to i
(this is what I'm talking about http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=483 )
Yea yea excuses excuses sounds like a pourly design processor to me if Intel can optimize in one night what AMD zealots can't do in weeks LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Face it AMD is going to lose big time dude.
Face it AMD is going to lose big time dude.
Also Intel is not AMD and will never sit back and watch while there products go unsupported if need be they will and have in the past supplied patches for software to help it use there products. Ya see thats what I'm paying a few more bucks for product R&D and support that AMD can't begin to touch not even close.
<< Yea yea excuses excuses sounds like a pourly design processor to me if Intel can optimize in one night what AMD zealots can't do in weeks LMAO!!!!!!!!!! >>
And the fact that Intel is huge corporation while the AMD projct is done by people in their sparetime wouldn't have anything to do with it? Life must be nice with such a narrow minded view on things.. it must be really easy just eating Intel's hype and FUD raw instead of having to think for yourself!
<< Also Intel is not AMD and will never sit back and watch while there products go unsupported if need be they will and have in the past supplied patches for software to help it use there products. Ya see thats what I'm paying a few more bucks for product R&D and support that AMD can't begin to touch not even close. >>
BLA BLA BLA.. all BS.. AMD products beat Intel products.. should that tell you something. Besides AMD sees their job as making cpus, and they're doing one hell of a job of that... I'm glad they continue to focus on that.. software developers must optimzie for AMD then .. if they want my business anyway! With that said AMD has pretty much showed that even with poor software optimization they ccan still beat the PIII/P4/P-whatever for a lot less $$$. Sounds like a nobrainer to me!
Hey zephyr you want some cheese with that whine man what a whiner !!!!!!!! I think if AMD would get off that wallet and there dead a$$ then people would have to do this in there spare time. Thats what I'm saying they don't support there products worth a sh!t.
<< Hey zephyr you want some cheese with that whine man what a whiner !!!!!!!! I think if AMD would get off that wallet and there dead a$$ then people would have to do this in there spare time. Thats what I'm saying they don't support there products worth a sh!t. >>
You're a piece of work NOS. I must say, that was pretty amzing how you managed to completely miss my point about AMD concentrating on making cpu's instead of doing the software developers job.
EDIT: Besides who gives a rats a$$ if they support worth a sh1t!!! They still beat Intels offerings for a fraction of the cost!
Software development for a product that AMD produces that are new and in need of compilers or Optimised code is what I call PRODUCT SUPPORT and if you think a company that refuses to support there product properly is something to defend I just hope that this trend doesn't continue or before long we will be flooded with product that don't work as intended.
<< Software development for a product that AMD produces that are new and in need of compilers or Optimised code is what I call PRODUCT SUPPORT and if you think a company that refuses to support there product properly is something to defend I just hope that this trend doesn't continue or before long we will be flooded with product that don't work as intended. >>
Then how do you like the trend to go NOS?.. you want Intel to take over the cpu business as whole so they can charge you whatever they wish. What the hell kind of a sick way of thinking is that!?! Besides AMD does NOT refuse to support, they simply does not have the same huge amount of ressources as Intel availble to assign for it. All things taken into considerarion AMD is doing a mavelous job beating Intels offerings, and anyone who fails to realize this suffers from a severe lack of insight.
Just wanted to add a little something. Farther down in this thread some ppl claim the p3 beats the Thunderbird clock for clock in 3dbench.
That used to be true but is it valid for KT133A and Amd760 based Athlon systems?
I would like to see a p3 1Ghz 815 board pitted against a thunderbird 1ghz coupled with kt133a @ 133mhz bus. And possibly at 150 mhz bus.
I am not sure if that could help the Athlon catch up with the p3 but at least it could tighten the gap.
And an athlon 1ghz costs about a third of a p3 1ghz (at least here in sweden)
That used to be true but is it valid for KT133A and Amd760 based Athlon systems?
I would like to see a p3 1Ghz 815 board pitted against a thunderbird 1ghz coupled with kt133a @ 133mhz bus. And possibly at 150 mhz bus.
I am not sure if that could help the Athlon catch up with the p3 but at least it could tighten the gap.
And an athlon 1ghz costs about a third of a p3 1ghz (at least here in sweden)
Zephyr I would like to see the avid customer of AMD tell them that you expect more support so they can be a close competitor to Intel. They are doing a great job making processors and revenues have grown big time for them. Its time for them to start a real software devoloping department and better R&D for chipsets. If they continue with there business model of depending on 3rd party vendor for chipset support and software support they will never have control of there destiny and that of there products in my opinion a stupid move .
<< Zephyr I would like to see the avid customer of AMD tell them that you expect more support so they can be a close competitor to Intel. They are doing a great job making processors and revenues have grown big time for them. Its time for them to start a real software devoloping department and better R&D for chipsets. If they continue with there business model of depending on 3rd party vendor for chipset support and software support they will never have control of there destiny and that of there products in my opinion a stupid move . >>
We can buy state-of-the art processors today for $100. O/C'ing is still alive even byt multiplier. The monoploly has finally been broken. IHMO there's a thin line between validly expecting more and just plain old bitching. Betting on Via BTW which was viewed upon with much scepticims, (by me as well as many) have paid off though. Vie was able to pull it off and make some great chipsets for the Tbird/Duron platform. Honestly I think Via has much more experience with making chipsets and I don't feel AMD could do a better job. In fact I'm very much looking forward to Via's DDR solution, I believe it is likely to sport at least some improvement over AMD760 (no I don't mean it will give you 500+fps in UT or Q3A, but if it gives a 5-10% increase that would still be pretty impressive) due to the fact that Via has done a tremdous job on optimizing their KT133 in terms of memory preformance.
AMD Duron 750 with a KT133A m/b, like the MSI K7T Turbo (when availible). It will give you extra room for future upgrades. Just be sure to get a good HSF.
But to make the system shine, you'll need a good video card.
I wouldn't know what a P3 is like, so I can't really compare them. I have never owned an Intel based computer. I have always had AMD.
But to make the system shine, you'll need a good video card.
I wouldn't know what a P3 is like, so I can't really compare them. I have never owned an Intel based computer. I have always had AMD.
I agree that VIA has come a long way with AMD and Intel products. But your skipping the Compiler Issue here and I still feel there making a mistake not wanting to make there own chipsets. I still say AMD needs to learn to Support and Market there products if they ever plan to really hurt Intel. Everyone thinks that AMD has hurt Intel and in some ways they have but the fact remains the same Intel has sold every chip they made in 2000 with there factories running at near 100%. The market share that AMD has pickup is mostly what Intel could never fill anyway. The biggest hurt that AMD has put on itnel is one I like and thats prices AMD has drove the prices down which is good for now. But may hurt us all in the long run as in less profits less R&D ...
<< AMD has hurt Intel and in some ways they have but the fact remains the same Intel has sold every chip they made in 2000 with there factories running at near 100%. The market share that AMD has pickup is mostly what Intel could never fill anyway. The biggest hurt that AMD has put on itnel is one I like and thats prices AMD has drove the prices down which is good for now. But may hurt us all in the long run as in less profits less R&D ... >>
Like I've mentioned before... the fact that Intel sold every chip they made is really quite irelevant.. the kind of fluff Intel tells their investors so they won't realize how deep doo doo Intel is in really. In a market where the demand exceeds the collective production you can always sell every chip you make. It all becomes a matter of profit margins. As you correctly point out yourself AMD has put hurt on intel on their prices. Very much in fact. This is the reason Intel issued a profit warning for Q400, not because of lack of demand in europe, this was pretty much denied by all major system vendors except Dell.
As for the "it may all hurt us in the long run" I don't buy that for one second. Basics of the free market theory shows that competiton is good for the market and for the product development. This is affirmed.. what do you think we'd be using today if AMD hadn't introduced the Athlon?.. PIII 800MHz as speed king? Because of AMD we are now ahead of Moores law, which Intel has been following for 30 years now.
Bottom line is that if a single monopoly is allowed to control a market they can serve their own investors interests instead of the best interest of the costumers. In a competitative market companies can't rest on the laurels and cash in like Intel has done for years.
Regarding chipsets... I'm glad AMD chooses to provide chipset solutions because the more players the merrier. however I also recognize that Via has provided the K7 with good stable chipsets and remain king. However Via does behave like what they are a monopoly, the KM133 chipset should have been out the door the day the Duron started shipping. I salute AMD, Sis and Ali getting back in the game again.
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