AMD or Intel?, what way should I go??

[mustang659ut]

It will likely be very interesting to see what the market for CPU's will do in the future. Right now it would seem that AMD is the king of the hill as they are at 1.2 Ghz and can outperform a P4 running at 1.4 Ghz. But both companies have their advantages. The #1 advantage to AMD is that they are not seeking control of every market to the point that the will release an inferior product to be the fastest(P4).

BTW -- How is it that all the OCer's here can get a P3 over 1Ghz when Intel could not?? I really am curious, cause I have had little or no luck with my P3....

 

[Priit]

NOS440: point is that T-bird has much powerful and more advanced architecture compared with P3 (it's like comparing pentiums with 486). P6 core has pretty much exhausted itself by now, athlon has enough potential to last some years more. Why Mhz vs. Mhz T-bird is mostly even with P3 ? I think it's cause of T-bird's chipsets: VIA isn't as experienced chipset maket as Intel (but he makes good progress). Apps, that depend mostly from CPU performance are running considerably faster on T-bird (RC-5, 3D MAX, MP3 encoding etc). In fact, (older?) programs optimised for P5 or P6 core (without SSE/3DNow) seem to run faster on T-bird than on P6 core.

 

[NOS440]

P-4 is not in anyway inferior at any apps that matter the P-4 and other future CPU's from AMD or cyrix(or whatever) are the way of the future and time will bring this fact to us all. Why is it that AMD themselves are going to jump on the SSE-2 bandwagon with future CPU releases. I can tell you why has soon as software starts to be written for it the T-bird and its successors without SSE-2 will be hurting. Also I would say that not to far in the future that AMD will be lengthening there pipeline or some other design change that will hinder performance in some non crucial apps to gain in clock speed

The fact are that Intel designed a very forward thinking and scaleable product with the P-4 and in the end it will do what it was intended to do be a long lasting high performance scaleable product. You all will find that the MHZ and speed starved masses will have to sacrifice Office app performance which is and has been waiting for the user to input more then the processor to crunch since the day's of the 400 mhz CPU for a screeming media and 3D apps that are realistic and flow smooth as silk. think about it and you will all agree if you want to be honest about it.

Now let me add one more thing to this I am not saying that a year from now that AMD will not have such a product that will do the same thing maybe it will be better and maybe it won't time will tell us this. Intel did not release the P-4 to have it instantanously take the PC business by storm they want it to be a gradual take over of there product line and this is what its doing.

Those are my thoughts on the P-4 and the future

 

[NOS440]

Zephyr I care too ! But the problem with your theory is AMD. They refuse to write compiler software for there products and even when the do it proves there limited abilities at such endeavers at this time and the way there track record is the near to far future. The proof of these was in the Toms article when Intel and AMD supplied Optimised software and clock for clock the P-4 came out the winner by a long shot I might add. By your theory we should all stick with the P-3 it already has better software support by a leaps and bounds !!!!

 

[NOS440]

Priit thats a bunch the the good old blame it on VIA excuses. I believe AMD makes chipsets too !!

 

[Zephyr]

<< P-4 is not in anyway inferior at any apps that matter the P-4 and other future CPU's from AMD or cyrix(or whatever) are the way of the future and time will bring this fact to us all. >>


We'll just have to see about that wown't we... I say the P4 is gonna get Hammered down in the future you're talking about


<< Why is it that AMD themselves are going to jump on the SSE-2 bandwagon with future CPU releases >>


Because Intel is an evil near monopoly that force its SSE2 standard onto the market... AMD realizes this, and have to use the standard to compete. This is ofcourse universially wrong, since it will make AMD products more expensive because Intel will want royalties for the use of SSE2... however if the alternative is AMD going out of business because Intel takes over the market completely through forcing propritary standards, we'll live with it... for now


<< I can tell you why has soon as software starts to be written for it the T-bird and its successors without SSE-2 will be hurting. >>


If you think SIMD is the holy grail you can think again. It will never have the flexibility of a strong FPU. Furthermore CPU power really isn't the real bottleneck when we talk the type of data that can actually benefit from SSE2. It will typically be the vid. card that is the bottleneck. Look at benchmarks under the res. people actually use... 1024x768 and up... does anything above a Duron 600-700 really hold much advantage if any? I'd think not. Saying that the P4 with the 400MHz FSB and SSE2 actually holds a real world advantage in Q3A is IMHO a hoax since nobody actually plays in 640x480@16 (not anybody I know anyway)

 

[Priit]

Oh, AFAIK AMD has clearly stated that they doesn't want to become the chipset manufacturer. Yes, AMD has some of their own chipsets, but they are pretty rare and IMHO better than the one VIA makes. Comparing VIA chipsets for Intel processors with Intel's own chipsets, VIA is apparenly slower, isn't it ? I admit that Intel has a bit more mature chipsets with little better HDD/memory/PCI controllers than AMD/VIA, don't you think that this has some influence to system's overall performance ? And if T-bird hasn't any better architecture than P3, why does some apps (mostly programs, that fit into L1 and L2 cache) are running ~30-40% faster on it (Mhz vs. Mhz) ?

 

[NOS440]

This is just like talking to a box of rocks. We got to the 100 mark I give up. I try to be nice about the whole thing and you all proceed to whine Intel is evil VIA does this. But we all know that AMD is just looking out for are best interests !!!!!!!!!

 

[mustang659ut]

I think that the whole story is just that a person will buy from the company that they choose. So long as a choice remains. Intel is not bad. That is what I have and until the AMD Athlon came to be I would have never considered AMD for a moment. Now they are a competitor to Intel, and both make a reputable product. For now I am just stuck in the stonage with this P3 450.

 

[Zephyr]

anybody else heard about the Intel mystery shopper programme?

it in times like these I'm proud these bastards never got a dime from me, if I could help it

 

[NOS440]

Check this interesting post at Aces Zephyr please read the whole thing carefully LINK

 

[NOS440]

Quote from same sight



&quot;Thanks to Munich for sending word that the ASUS A7M266 has made an appearance on KMelektronik, a German retailer. The A7M266 is listed as available and is selling for roughly US$230.&quot;



Seems like the P-4 MB not far off from this is it LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NOS440]

Oh I also found out on the phone with Asus that a everyday ordinary Antec 303X will run a P-4 without a hitch with the MB and no special case required LOL !!!!! start sweating the P-4 is going to invade my desktop and I'm sure others will follow soon. I have got a deal woked out my end cost for upgrade to 1708 mhz will run me a whopping 525 LMAO!!!!!!!!

 

[NOS440]

And another nice tidbit


&quot;Enhanced memory systems has been known for (slightly) higher priced, but high quality RAM products, but it is a fact that DDR SDRAM pricing remains to be high. A quick look at Mushkin and JC's price watch shows that DDR SDRAM is significantly more expensive than both RDRAM and PC150 HSDRAM (128 MB modules):&quot;

 

[NOS440]

This real interesting and I think help my Athlon isn't going there theory :
aces quote
&quot;Bang! The Pentium 4 rules the Quake III World. Not really surprising, because the PIII-1000 runs Quake III almost as fast as a AMD's current champion. The fact is that Quake 3 is very bandwidth hungry, and combined with SSE-optimizations in NVIDIA's OpenGL drivers, you begin understand that superior bandwidth makes the Pentium 4 the ultimate Quake 3 processor. The Athlon can keep up clock for clock, but it is not very realistic to believe that the Athlon will ever match the clockspeed-crazy hyperpipelined P4 in the MHz race

 

[Zephyr]

<< Check this interesting post at Aces Zephyr please read the whole thing carefully LINK >>


interesting yes... let's see it transform into realworld preformance.. by the time that happens AMD will have SSE2 and more advanced memory interfaces as well.


<< &quot;Thanks to Munich for sending word that the ASUS A7M266 has made an appearance on KMelektronik, a German retailer. The A7M266 is listed as available and is selling for roughly US$230.&quot;Seems like the P-4 MB not far off from this is it LOL!!!!!!!!!!! >>


That's what we call a half truth where I come from. The P4 mobo could come for free and the price of RDRAM and the CPU alone would make it way more expensive than an equally or better preforming AMD solution.


<< Oh I also found out on the phone with Asus that a everyday ordinary Antec 303X will run a P-4 without a hitch with the MB and no special case required LOL !!!!! start sweating the P-4 is going to invade my desktop and I'm sure others will follow soon. I have got a deal woked out my end cost for upgrade to 1708 mhz will run me a whopping 525 LMAO!!!!!!!! >>


Can you run a P4 on a 250W? No I think not... 7th gen architechtures just requires 300W PS*U's .. get over it!!! AMD was in front.. if it had been the other way around and Intel had been first with a product that required 300W PSU nobody would have even mentioned it as issue. [rant]Admit it for cryin out loud AMD is always looked upon with 10 times as much criticims as Intel because the general public has been fed Intel FUD for years with a spoon. [/end of rant]


<< &quot;Enhanced memory systems has been known for (slightly) higher priced, but high quality RAM products, but it is a fact that DDR SDRAM pricing remains to be high. A quick look at Mushkin and JC's price watch shows that DDR SDRAM is significantly more expensive than both RDRAM and PC150 HSDRAM (128 MB modules):&quot; >>


Wrong!!! Prices from Crucial's webshop
SDR PC133 CL2 128mb: $77.39
DDR PC1600 128mb: $77.39
Crucial doesn't have RDRAM but 128 MB PC800 is what? $180?


<< Bang! The Pentium 4 rules the Quake III World. Not really surprising, because the PIII-1000 runs Quake III almost as fast as a AMD's current champion.The fact is that Quake 3 is very bandwidth hungry, and combined with SSE-optimizations in NVIDIA's OpenGL drivers, you begin understand that superior bandwidth makes the Pentium 4 the ultimate Quake 3 processor. >>


You didn't quite understand waht I said about videocards being the bottleneck, when you play at resolutions that people actually play at did you? If you had you'd realize that this is a rather moot point


<< The Athlon can keep up clock for clock, but it is not very realistic to believe that the Athlon will ever match the clockspeed-crazy hyperpipelined P4 in the MHz race >>


Ever heard about SOI? AMD can and will keep up

 

[Zephyr]

BTW NOS my misguided friend... I took the liberty of checking prices with my local dealer
The A7M266 is ~1900kr (~$237) while an Asus P4 board is ~3300kr (~$412)

GEE I wonder which is the better deal?!?! *LOL*

(these prices are including sales tax of 25%)

 

[NOS440]

Zephyr sounds like I'm getting your blood up there dude !!!!! First off I didn't say these things Aces did just thought they were interesting.

That's what we call a half truth where I come from. The P4 mobo could come for free and the price of RDRAM and the CPU alone would make it way more expensive than an equally or better preforming AMD solution.

First off the Asus P4T can be had right now for $250 and its dropping like a rock fast and that is my point and so are the P-4s. As far as the price of RDram you better check around dude thats dropped big time too. The prices of DDR are promotional for one thing and its also for PC1600 which would be real stupid to buy if you ask me. I haven't seen any PC2100 anywhere yet. But it may be and then it really isn't doing the T-Bird much good anyways.


Can you run a P4 on a 250W? No I think not... 7th gen architechtures just requires 300W PS*U's .. get over it!!! AMD was in front.. if it had been the other way around and Intel had been first with a product that required 300W PSU nobody would have even mentioned it as issue. [rant]Admit it for cryin out loud AMD is always looked upon with 10 times as much criticims as Intel because the general public has been fed Intel FUD for years with a spoon. [/end of rant]

daaaaaaaa I wasn't refering to anything to do with the Athlon here. I was just saying that Asus MB has relieved P-4 adopters from alot of the extra money for these items. besides the Power Supply I mentioned was a 300W ????? you lost me on that one dude I must be getting under your AMD Zealot skin there Bud.


Wrong!!! Prices from Crucial's webshop
SDR PC133 CL2 128mb: $77.39
DDR PC1600 128mb: $77.39
Crucial doesn't have RDRAM but 128 MB PC800 is what? $180?



Well if your going to compare lets at least compare apples to apples her thats for PC1600 please find me some PC2100 prices because PC1600 is basically stupid who would even bother. LMAO!!!!!! If were going to compare the PC600 Rdram prices the prices reflected on Crucials sight are purely promotional and will not last and you know it. So lets get real here !!!


Your dreaming dude AMD is going to be hurting unless they Pull something out of there A$$ !!!!! Yes it is a mute point today I agree but I'm talking about the not to distant future as in NV20 coupled with a P-4 is going to be awesome.

 

[Dexion]

<< Well if your going to compare lets at least compare apples to apples her thats for PC1600 please find me some PC2100 prices because PC1600 is basically stupid who would even bother. LMAO!!!!!! If were going to compare the PC600 Rdram prices the prices reflected on Crucials sight are purely promotional and will not last and you know it. So lets get real here !!! >>



LOL damn, you seem to only look at the surface don't you? On that same page you looked at the prices, theres a small link that directs you to the PC2100 page. Read the prices and weep

I believe Crucial isn't going to be promotional about this, infact I think their going to keep this price. The fact is, theres a demand for it, and its relatively the same raw cost to make SDR and DDR ram. Crucial is still making a heck of a profit selling it at these prices.

 

[NOS440]

Dexion its not going to make me weep I just fialized a deal to get me a 1700 mhz running Beast that cost me a total of 575.00 they wittle me out of a extra 50%. After I sale my P-3 rig i might have about 125 bucks in it LOL !!!!!!!!! Besides DDR is way inferior a technology to RDram and should cost less your getting less LMAO!!!!!!!

 

[NOS440]

To funny the Link is dead hmmmmm Must not be available yet !!!

 

[shiznut123]

intel makes their chips way too expensive

 

[Zephyr]

<< First off the Asus P4T can be had right now for $250 and its dropping like a rock fast and that is my point and so are the P-4s. As far as the price of RDram you better check around dude thats dropped big time too. The prices of DDR are promotional for one thing and its also for PC1600 which would be real stupid to buy if you ask me. I haven't seen any PC2100 anywhere yet. But it may be and then it really isn't doing the T-Bird much good anyways. >>


The problem as I see it is that the A7M266 isn't generelly availible to the US market, therefor it is priced too high. I can get an A7M266 today if I choose to buy one, simply because, like the KT133A, a lot of products for the AMD platform gets introduced in europe first (has to do with the european market being a lot less conservative that the US market I won't go further into that cos I could be on this damn thing all day if I did). Anyway this means that price on DDR motherboards is unrealisticaly high untill the procut is properly introduced, it doesn't mean anything.


<< daaaaaaaa I wasn't refering to anything to do with the Athlon here. I was just saying that Asus MB has relieved P-4 adopters from alot of the extra money for these items. besides the Power Supply I mentioned was a 300W ????? you lost me on that one dude I must be getting under your AMD Zealot skin there Bud. >>


I'll try and explain my point one more time for you NOS. I'm sick and tired of people bitching over the Athlon requiring a 300W PSU!!! If it's such a huge deal why not bitch over the P4 requiring it as well?!?! Sounds like a case of double standards to me if I ever saw one.
BTW are we back to the &quot;boohoo you're a zealot&quot; thing again? Tell me NOS I'm keen to hear, everytime someone makes a point you disagree with they're a zealot right? Looked in the mirror lately NOS?


<< Well if your going to compare lets at least compare apples to apples her thats for PC1600 please find me some PC2100 prices because PC1600 is basically stupid who would even bother. LMAO!!!!!! If were going to compare the PC600 Rdram prices the prices reflected on Crucials sight are purely promotional and will not last and you know it. So lets get real here !!! >>


Actually I looked for RDRAM on crucials homepage but they doesn't even sell the bloody things (think I'll be shopping at Crucial in the future ) I am very real here, an Athlon with PC1600 is more than competitative with the P4, (in fact a PC133 Athlon is more than competitative) and since the modules cost the same buying PC1600 is not stupid, once the boards are fully introduced and at the same level as PC133 based boards you might as well buy PC1600 since it's the same price as PC133. Untill then Athlon+SDR remains the king for normal consumers.


<< Your dreaming dude AMD is going to be hurting unless they Pull something out of there A$$ !!!!! Yes it is a mute point today I agree but I'm talking about the not to distant future as in NV20 coupled with a P-4 is going to be awesome. >>


You're assuming AMD doesn't develop their products as well. Palomino is in theworks which is basically taking up the MHz race with the P4 without sacrificing clock-for-clock preformance like Intel has done. Sounds like AMD stands more than a fair chance to me

 

[Kintoke]

where are back on the road!!!!, lets the discussion began!!

 

[Zephyr]

<< Besides DDR is way inferior a technology to RDram and should cost less your getting less LMAO!!!!!!! >>



Would you care to give us a technical insigt in how you reach the somewhat bold conclusion?

I'd say RDRAM is a huge leap backwards since I believe that while a searial memory interface might hold some advantages over parallel in terms of 1) reducing pin/trace count and 2) being able to reach higher clock speeds these are outweighed but the fact that 1) the high clockspeeds required simply just adds to the quality requirements of the reduced number of traces, and 2) the poor yilding on RDRAM has more than showed that the clockspeed benefit serial memory interfaces can achieve with todays fab. technology is not by far enough to make it competitative to a parallel memoryinterface like SDRAM.