Dexion I will garrentee you this it won't be the last those are some fond memories you brought back to me there thanks dude !!!!
This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not some "stick your hand in my throat bash". If you remain closed minded, flaming, and consistant promotion of "useless" propaganda on a specific topic. I suggest you leave.
Kintoke,
<< Thanks, but look, here in chile, I can sell my p3-500 and my motherboard for about $280 (things sells high), so, to buy the motherboard and the duron, I have to put just $80 dolars.
well, nobody have answer me my question jet , if I go to the DURON 750 way, I would get much more performance than my p3-500 with an old via apollo 133 motherboard??? >>
Forget all this arguing here...
The AMD upgrade is you best bet assuming you can sell your old stuff - if you can't sell get the PIII 700
You will notice a difference in performance with the Duron based system
<< Thanks, but look, here in chile, I can sell my p3-500 and my motherboard for about $280 (things sells high), so, to buy the motherboard and the duron, I have to put just $80 dolars.
well, nobody have answer me my question jet , if I go to the DURON 750 way, I would get much more performance than my p3-500 with an old via apollo 133 motherboard??? >>
Forget all this arguing here...
The AMD upgrade is you best bet assuming you can sell your old stuff - if you can't sell get the PIII 700
You will notice a difference in performance with the Duron based system
<< Sure which ones will you except I'm sure they will only be synthetic But I'm sure I can spank any T-bird you can muster up. besides there are some below done by Joedaddy what there not good enough for ya ??? >>
This ladies and gentlemen is an excellent example of the highly scientific and objevtive methods, on which NOS bases his insightful conclusions... benchmarks done by "joedaddy" and ramblings about the future not backed up by a single piece of evidence. Impressive yes?
<< Where is this phathom processor ????? >>
Q1 my friend.. waay before the P4 even comes close to competing the existing Tbird core
<< Oh please the only one flaming is you !!!!!!!! where are the Intellectual arguement all I hear is Price Price Price >>
Excuse me NOS but price does remain the most important factor for most buyers out there!
<< Dexion since when are you Zephyr's defendor he does alright on his own and we both enjoy these debates or we wouldn't get in them. If you don't have anything to add here than just go away. If my opinion bothers you don't read it. Who the he!! died and left you in charge ??? >>
...what's the matter NOS? Not interested in hearing others opinions unless they agree with you? ...you have learned the ways of Intel well
Well, its time form me to quoting something.
I think the same like the rest of here, that whe can`t change Nos mind, I think that is because he`s defending his "brand new intel based p4 system". Everyone try to put in his place, and you will see that I am right. If you bought a top of the line system, you will defend it with your life (if necesary). But the thing that I don`t understand is why buying a new computer based P4 now!!, because no software suppord it yet and by the end of this year, a p4 1.5 (like what you have Nos) will be out of the line, because there will be a new platform for it (ddr or sdr I don`t quite remember. So I think that in the next year, maybe the P4 will be more cheap than now without the rambus. So..hell NOS....I don`t now if you can sell that thing [your system] if you wanna change to the "new" P4 next year.
Resume: Why buying something that you can`t take avantage now, and , when you can take it, your CPU will be the older and slower in his line.
It was a bad, very bad move.
well see`ya
I think the same like the rest of here, that whe can`t change Nos mind, I think that is because he`s defending his "brand new intel based p4 system". Everyone try to put in his place, and you will see that I am right. If you bought a top of the line system, you will defend it with your life (if necesary). But the thing that I don`t understand is why buying a new computer based P4 now!!, because no software suppord it yet and by the end of this year, a p4 1.5 (like what you have Nos) will be out of the line, because there will be a new platform for it (ddr or sdr I don`t quite remember. So I think that in the next year, maybe the P4 will be more cheap than now without the rambus. So..hell NOS....I don`t now if you can sell that thing [your system]
if you wanna change to the "new" P4 next year.Resume: Why buying something that you can`t take avantage now, and , when you can take it, your CPU will be the older and slower in his line.
It was a bad, very bad move.
well see`ya
Again I will ask this is Q1 where is this Phathom processor ??
Benchmarks only tell half the story anyways and this more true now then ever there is almost no benchmark that can fairly test the Thunderbird or the P-4. I never really base my CPU choice on any of the reveiwers out there anyway's because none of them are really completely fair to either Company. The only way to really find the best is to try them Both I have used both systems and Loaded operating systems on both and The P-4 rocks the T-Bird world clock for clock or anyway you look at it. Its just a smoother system never starved for bandwidth.
Most buyer out there have no Idea what there buying and purchase by MHZ and Brand Name and Price, They almost all end up with alot less then they no there getting.
I believe the majority of the people on the board are performance geeks and want to know my experience and the experience of others with this new product and I'm here to tell them it rocks and no one is going to stop me.
The User experience with the P-4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the Thunderbird. The price has come down and is coming down more everyday the Motherboard prices have dropped 25% in 2 weeks the CPU price is almost 40% lower and Memory is way down also. This trend will continue in my opinion because Intel is going to slowly scale this product into the mainstream and to do so price has to be within reason. I don't however think it will ever be as cheap as the AMD product and hope it never is. I would rather have people out there buying AMD parts because the competition is good for the industry as a whole.
Benchmarks only tell half the story anyways and this more true now then ever there is almost no benchmark that can fairly test the Thunderbird or the P-4. I never really base my CPU choice on any of the reveiwers out there anyway's because none of them are really completely fair to either Company. The only way to really find the best is to try them Both I have used both systems and Loaded operating systems on both and The P-4 rocks the T-Bird world clock for clock or anyway you look at it. Its just a smoother system never starved for bandwidth.
Most buyer out there have no Idea what there buying and purchase by MHZ and Brand Name and Price, They almost all end up with alot less then they no there getting.
I believe the majority of the people on the board are performance geeks and want to know my experience and the experience of others with this new product and I'm here to tell them it rocks and no one is going to stop me.
The User experience with the P-4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the Thunderbird. The price has come down and is coming down more everyday the Motherboard prices have dropped 25% in 2 weeks the CPU price is almost 40% lower and Memory is way down also. This trend will continue in my opinion because Intel is going to slowly scale this product into the mainstream and to do so price has to be within reason. I don't however think it will ever be as cheap as the AMD product and hope it never is. I would rather have people out there buying AMD parts because the competition is good for the industry as a whole.
<< Again I will ask this is Q1 where is this Phathom processor ?? >>
Q1 isn't over yet.. Jerry W. Sanders III, CEO of AMD stated on the Q4 earnings conference call earlier this week that the Palomino will appear in Q1, and start replacing the Tbird in Q2. Let me ask YOU this, where is the phantom 2GHz P4 Intel has been hyping about for over 10 months now?
<< I never really base my CPU choice on any of the reveiwers out there anyway's because none of them are really completely fair to either Company >>
It's all a huge conspiracy against Intel by the evil AMD zealots, correct?
<< The only way to really find the best is to try them Both >>
Yeah sure.. you wanna send couple of thousand $$$ my way so I can afford a habit like that?
<< Both I have used both systems and Loaded operating systems on both and The P-4 rocks the T-Bird world clock for clock or anyway you look at it. Its just a smoother system never starved for bandwidth. >>
So we should believe YOU over the hardware reviewers cos "none of them are really completely fair to either Company" while you remain a true source of objectivity and fairness? *LOL*
<< Most buyer out there have no Idea what there buying and purchase by MHZ and Brand Name and Price, They almost all end up with alot less then they no there getting. >>
Yes so now we have established that most buyers are dumbarses. That's actually the whole concept of Intels business today... if you can't beat 'em in preformance you can always release a hyperpipelined cpu that will do increadibly high MHz so most buyers will assume it's fast.
<< I believe the majority of the people on the board are performance geeks and want to know my experience and the experience of others with this new product and I'm here to tell them it rocks and no one is going to stop me. >>
Good.. go right ahead... and I will tell them that Tbirds/Durons/Athlon classics rocks based on my experience.. is there a point here somewhere???
<< The User experience with the P-4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the Thunderbird. >>
Fluff argument.. proof?
<< I don't however think it will ever be as cheap as the AMD product and hope it never is. >>
Why is it that you hope it never will be? If you're buying it anyway one would think you'd want it as cheap as possible??? ... then OTOH, the cool part about paying overprice for Intel products where to feel superior to AMD users.. isn't it something like that? I never understood that fully.
Ok, some of what I say here may be repeating what Zephyr said, but I'll say it anyways
<<Again I will ask this is Q1 where is this Phathom processor ??>>
Q1 means sometime during Q1. Q1 is 3 months long, and we are 3 weeks in.
<<Benchmarks only tell half the story anyways and this more true now then ever there is almost no benchmark that can fairly test the Thunderbird or the P-4.>>
While the benchmarks may not represent the full capabilites of either processor, they represent performance in today's applications.
<<I never really base my CPU choice on any of the reveiwers out there anyway's because none of them are really completely fair to either Company.>>
And you are?!?
<<The only way to really find the best is to try them Both I have used both systems and Loaded operating systems on both and The P-4 rocks the T-Bird world clock for clock or anyway you look at it. Its just a smoother system never starved for bandwidth.>>
Most people don't have the money to "try them both". Oh, there's that evil word again, money. While you may not care about how much you spend (and I can understand, when I do things for hobby I don't like to end up with lower-quality equipment, even if it's a lot cheaper), for the majority of people, money is a concern.
<<Most buyer out there have no Idea what there buying and purchase by MHZ and Brand Name and Price, They almost all end up with alot less then they no there getting.>>
Which is why Intel designed the P4 like this, so that they could regain the precious MHz crown, and sell overpriced systems to unsuspecting cosumers. There's the money factor again! But this time it's Intel gouging consumers to make a bigger profit!
<<I believe the majority of the people on the board are performance geeks and want to know my experience and the experience of others with this new product and I'm here to tell them it rocks and no one is going to stop me.>>
No one is trying to stop you from expressing your opinions, but you constantly tout your favourite technology as the best, while trashing anything else, and never bothering to back any of your claims up with proof, only subjective evaluations.
<<The User experience with the P-4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the Thunderbird.>>
And what exactly makes it so much better? This is just a subjective evaluation, with no hard evidence or facts to prove it.
<<The price has come down and is coming down more everyday the Motherboard prices have dropped 25% in 2 weeks the CPU price is almost 40% lower and Memory is way down also.>>
And yet for the price of a P4 1.4GHz, you can get 2 1.2GHz Athlon Thunderbirds (and still have nearly $100 left over), or a 1.2GHz Athlon Thunderbird, Abit KT7A-RAID and 256MB of CAS2 PC133 SDRAM, a good quality HSF, AND have a few bucks left over.
And don't go saying the price argument is all us AMD fans have, because it's not. That 1.2GHz Thunderbird will beat the P4 in nearly every application, and will be even better if you overclock it. At the same clock speed, There is no match between P4 and Thunderbird, the T-Bird is way ahead.
<<This trend will continue in my opinion because Intel is going to slowly scale this product into the mainstream and to do so price has to be within reason. I don't however think it will ever be as cheap as the AMD product and hope it never is. I would rather have people out there buying AMD parts because the competition is good for the industry as a whole.>>
You hope the P4 is never as cheap as AMD's products? So, you hope that others who want to join this miracle club will have to pay through their noses for it?
And yes competition is good, if it weren't for AMD and the Athlon, we would be nowhere near the performance levels we're at now, because Intel would never have needed to do anything more, with their virtual monopoly. Although competition is normally a good thing, in some rare cases, it is a bad thing. Case in point, the P4. Even though it was much delayed, it was still rushed to market, because Intel was losing market share to AMD. Unfortunately for them, it's not going to work.
<<Again I will ask this is Q1 where is this Phathom processor ??>>
Q1 means sometime during Q1. Q1 is 3 months long, and we are 3 weeks in.
<<Benchmarks only tell half the story anyways and this more true now then ever there is almost no benchmark that can fairly test the Thunderbird or the P-4.>>
While the benchmarks may not represent the full capabilites of either processor, they represent performance in today's applications.
<<I never really base my CPU choice on any of the reveiwers out there anyway's because none of them are really completely fair to either Company.>>
And you are?!?
<<The only way to really find the best is to try them Both I have used both systems and Loaded operating systems on both and The P-4 rocks the T-Bird world clock for clock or anyway you look at it. Its just a smoother system never starved for bandwidth.>>
Most people don't have the money to "try them both". Oh, there's that evil word again, money. While you may not care about how much you spend (and I can understand, when I do things for hobby I don't like to end up with lower-quality equipment, even if it's a lot cheaper), for the majority of people, money is a concern.
<<Most buyer out there have no Idea what there buying and purchase by MHZ and Brand Name and Price, They almost all end up with alot less then they no there getting.>>
Which is why Intel designed the P4 like this, so that they could regain the precious MHz crown, and sell overpriced systems to unsuspecting cosumers. There's the money factor again! But this time it's Intel gouging consumers to make a bigger profit!
<<I believe the majority of the people on the board are performance geeks and want to know my experience and the experience of others with this new product and I'm here to tell them it rocks and no one is going to stop me.>>
No one is trying to stop you from expressing your opinions, but you constantly tout your favourite technology as the best, while trashing anything else, and never bothering to back any of your claims up with proof, only subjective evaluations.
<<The User experience with the P-4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the Thunderbird.>>
And what exactly makes it so much better? This is just a subjective evaluation, with no hard evidence or facts to prove it.
<<The price has come down and is coming down more everyday the Motherboard prices have dropped 25% in 2 weeks the CPU price is almost 40% lower and Memory is way down also.>>
And yet for the price of a P4 1.4GHz, you can get 2 1.2GHz Athlon Thunderbirds (and still have nearly $100 left over), or a 1.2GHz Athlon Thunderbird, Abit KT7A-RAID and 256MB of CAS2 PC133 SDRAM, a good quality HSF, AND have a few bucks left over.
And don't go saying the price argument is all us AMD fans have, because it's not. That 1.2GHz Thunderbird will beat the P4 in nearly every application, and will be even better if you overclock it. At the same clock speed, There is no match between P4 and Thunderbird, the T-Bird is way ahead.
<<This trend will continue in my opinion because Intel is going to slowly scale this product into the mainstream and to do so price has to be within reason. I don't however think it will ever be as cheap as the AMD product and hope it never is. I would rather have people out there buying AMD parts because the competition is good for the industry as a whole.>>
You hope the P4 is never as cheap as AMD's products? So, you hope that others who want to join this miracle club will have to pay through their noses for it?
And yes competition is good, if it weren't for AMD and the Athlon, we would be nowhere near the performance levels we're at now, because Intel would never have needed to do anything more, with their virtual monopoly. Although competition is normally a good thing, in some rare cases, it is a bad thing. Case in point, the P4. Even though it was much delayed, it was still rushed to market, because Intel was losing market share to AMD. Unfortunately for them, it's not going to work.
From Anand:
<< The Pentium 4 has a very advanced branch predictor that can help to avoid any mis-predicted branches that may occur in the later stages of its pipeline. The Pentium 4?s branch predictor is actually much more advanced than the Athlon?s, unfortunately regardless of how advanced it is, you can?t predict something that is generally unpredictable. This is the case when it comes to integer instructions. >>
Lets talk about cache:
<< We mentioned in our article on Intel?s NetBurst micro-architecture that the Pentium 4 will feature a small 8KB L1 data cache. This is exactly half the size of the L1 data cache of the Pentium III (16KB), so why the reduction in size? Smaller caches have lower latencies so in part it was an attempt to decrease the latency of the L1 cache. In comparison, while the Athlon?s 2-way set associative 64KB L1 Data Cache has a better hit rate (larger caches have better hit rates) it has a 50% higher latency (3 clocks vs 2 clocks).
Unfortunately not all programs can fit in this L1 cache, so the Pentium 4?s L2 cache comes into play and must be fairly low latency for performance sake. We know from the introduction of the Pentium III?s Coppermine core that Intel?s on-die L2 cache is superior to that found on the Athlon?s Thunderbird core. The reason behind this is that the L2 cache has a much wider data path on the Pentium III than on the Athlon (256-bit vs 64-bit on the Thunderbird). With the Pentium 4, the L2 cache subsystem gets even better. >>
Any questions about SSE2?
<< Another positive note for SSE2 is that AMD will be supporting SSE2 with their upcoming 64-bit processors that are due to be released at the end of next year or the beginning of 2002. This should give the standard even more power behind it and will allow AMD to benefit from the same performance enhancements that will help the Pentium 4. >>
Well at least you only have to wait 1 year to get an AMD CPU that will support SSE2.
Rambus anyone?
<< With two RDRAM channels the latency issues surrounding RDRAM are lessened and the amount of available bandwidth doubled, however it requires that you install RIMMs in pairs of two. This means that i850 boards will have 4 RIMM slots, however since each RDRAM channel is only 16-bits wide it shouldn?t be too expensive for a motherboard manufacturer to implement. This is still one of the benefits of RDRAM from a layout perspective. If you?ve noticed, most DDR boards are shipping with 3 or sometimes just 2 DIMM slots because of the number of traces required for a 64-bit data path to the North Bridge capable of handling such high transfer rates. >>
More incorrect information:
<< Along with the Pentium 4 Intel is introducing support and a need for the new ATX 2.03 specification. This specification basically makes room for the mounting holes for the Pentium 4?s heatsink retention mechanism in the case. This unfortunately means that current cases, without modifying the motherboard tray, won?t work with the Pentium 4 with its heatsink attached. If you?ve really got a lot of money invested in your case you can try and make your own mounting holes by lining up your motherboard and making the appropriate marks to drill through on the tray.
The next big change is with the power supply. The ATX 2.03 spec calls for an ATX12V power supply which supports the additional power connector required by i850 boards. This additional +12V power connector allows for additional power to be supplied to the motherboard around the CPU. With CPUs increasing in clock frequency and drawing more and more power, this helps to keep things stable in an area of the motherboard where current draw is at the highest levels. >>
You do not have to buy a new case or power supply.
Mmmmm memory
<< What is interesting is what happens after the L1 and L2 caches are filled and the data set begins to grow in size. The latter part of the graph is as close to clock speed independent as possible since its mainly depending on memory and FSB performance. In spite of using the same memory controller as the i840 chipset, the Pentium 4 on the i850 chipset holds a 75% performance advantage over even the fastest AMD 760 DDR platform. >>
Bandwidth anyone?
<< The Pentium 4 is truly a bandwidth monster as we discovered with our initial Linpack benchmarks. While the 50% higher clock speed makes up for some of this lead, the majority of it is due to its 400MHz FSB, low latency caches, and excellent branch predictor. Too bad the real world performance of the processor, using today's applications, isn't able to take advantage of this incredible amount of bandwidth. >>
Now some bad things about the P4.
It lags behind in some of the so called "real world applications", in just my opinion once programs begin to use SSE2, it will be great, just as it will be good for AMD, when they release a CPU that supports SSE2. It would be great if the P4 could spank the Thunderbird in some of those real word apps, but it doesn't...yet Which means that you would have to make a choice, your performance in Word/Publisher/Napster or Quake3 or Counterstrike.
Second, Socket423 will be gone this year, sucks for buying a P4 now.
Third, overclocking AMD will get harder and harder. Once AMD reach 1.4ghz, they will be putting out an estimated 70+ watts of heat. As opposed to the P4 only putting out 52 watts @ 1.5ghz. My 1.4 o/c to 1.68 is running smoothly at 29 degs Cel.
I've owned Thunderbird and Duron systems. And I've only had 1 problems with them.
1. They have been buggy, lock ups, just not stable. (I'm sure that some people have perfect working AMD systems, mine weren't)
Not to say either that all intel systems are stable either. hehe remember i820 w/ SDRAM? almost made me want to throw my board out the window.
As far as their being non-biased sites out there? I don't think there are very many non-biased sites out there, including this one. Everybody is going to have their own idea about which system is better and that is going to reflect in their work,reviews, and comments. The fact of the matter is that I'm only here to tell my experiences w/ P4's and AMD. Who else here has experience with both? Zephyr? Dexion?
And to anwser Kintoke's question, if you can get a good deal on a P3 that would work in your board, then get it. If not, then sell it and pick up a cheap duron system. hell I just bought an MSI board and Duron 750 for only $150.
[EDIT]
If anyone could point me in the direction of some benchmarking help. I would like to bench my system using 3ds Max, and maybe flask or some other type of encoding.
[/EDIT]
<< The Pentium 4 has a very advanced branch predictor that can help to avoid any mis-predicted branches that may occur in the later stages of its pipeline. The Pentium 4?s branch predictor is actually much more advanced than the Athlon?s, unfortunately regardless of how advanced it is, you can?t predict something that is generally unpredictable. This is the case when it comes to integer instructions. >>
Lets talk about cache:
<< We mentioned in our article on Intel?s NetBurst micro-architecture that the Pentium 4 will feature a small 8KB L1 data cache. This is exactly half the size of the L1 data cache of the Pentium III (16KB), so why the reduction in size? Smaller caches have lower latencies so in part it was an attempt to decrease the latency of the L1 cache. In comparison, while the Athlon?s 2-way set associative 64KB L1 Data Cache has a better hit rate (larger caches have better hit rates) it has a 50% higher latency (3 clocks vs 2 clocks).
Unfortunately not all programs can fit in this L1 cache, so the Pentium 4?s L2 cache comes into play and must be fairly low latency for performance sake. We know from the introduction of the Pentium III?s Coppermine core that Intel?s on-die L2 cache is superior to that found on the Athlon?s Thunderbird core. The reason behind this is that the L2 cache has a much wider data path on the Pentium III than on the Athlon (256-bit vs 64-bit on the Thunderbird). With the Pentium 4, the L2 cache subsystem gets even better. >>
Any questions about SSE2?
<< Another positive note for SSE2 is that AMD will be supporting SSE2 with their upcoming 64-bit processors that are due to be released at the end of next year or the beginning of 2002. This should give the standard even more power behind it and will allow AMD to benefit from the same performance enhancements that will help the Pentium 4. >>
Well at least you only have to wait 1 year to get an AMD CPU that will support SSE2.
Rambus anyone?
<< With two RDRAM channels the latency issues surrounding RDRAM are lessened and the amount of available bandwidth doubled, however it requires that you install RIMMs in pairs of two. This means that i850 boards will have 4 RIMM slots, however since each RDRAM channel is only 16-bits wide it shouldn?t be too expensive for a motherboard manufacturer to implement. This is still one of the benefits of RDRAM from a layout perspective. If you?ve noticed, most DDR boards are shipping with 3 or sometimes just 2 DIMM slots because of the number of traces required for a 64-bit data path to the North Bridge capable of handling such high transfer rates. >>
More incorrect information:
<< Along with the Pentium 4 Intel is introducing support and a need for the new ATX 2.03 specification. This specification basically makes room for the mounting holes for the Pentium 4?s heatsink retention mechanism in the case. This unfortunately means that current cases, without modifying the motherboard tray, won?t work with the Pentium 4 with its heatsink attached. If you?ve really got a lot of money invested in your case you can try and make your own mounting holes by lining up your motherboard and making the appropriate marks to drill through on the tray.
The next big change is with the power supply. The ATX 2.03 spec calls for an ATX12V power supply which supports the additional power connector required by i850 boards. This additional +12V power connector allows for additional power to be supplied to the motherboard around the CPU. With CPUs increasing in clock frequency and drawing more and more power, this helps to keep things stable in an area of the motherboard where current draw is at the highest levels. >>
You do not have to buy a new case or power supply.
Mmmmm memory
<< What is interesting is what happens after the L1 and L2 caches are filled and the data set begins to grow in size. The latter part of the graph is as close to clock speed independent as possible since its mainly depending on memory and FSB performance. In spite of using the same memory controller as the i840 chipset, the Pentium 4 on the i850 chipset holds a 75% performance advantage over even the fastest AMD 760 DDR platform. >>
Bandwidth anyone?
<< The Pentium 4 is truly a bandwidth monster as we discovered with our initial Linpack benchmarks. While the 50% higher clock speed makes up for some of this lead, the majority of it is due to its 400MHz FSB, low latency caches, and excellent branch predictor. Too bad the real world performance of the processor, using today's applications, isn't able to take advantage of this incredible amount of bandwidth. >>
Now some bad things about the P4.
It lags behind in some of the so called "real world applications", in just my opinion once programs begin to use SSE2, it will be great, just as it will be good for AMD, when they release a CPU that supports SSE2. It would be great if the P4 could spank the Thunderbird in some of those real word apps, but it doesn't...yet Which means that you would have to make a choice, your performance in Word/Publisher/Napster or Quake3 or Counterstrike.
Second, Socket423 will be gone this year, sucks for buying a P4 now.
Third, overclocking AMD will get harder and harder. Once AMD reach 1.4ghz, they will be putting out an estimated 70+ watts of heat. As opposed to the P4 only putting out 52 watts @ 1.5ghz. My 1.4 o/c to 1.68 is running smoothly at 29 degs Cel.
I've owned Thunderbird and Duron systems. And I've only had 1 problems with them.
1. They have been buggy, lock ups, just not stable. (I'm sure that some people have perfect working AMD systems, mine weren't)
Not to say either that all intel systems are stable either. hehe remember i820 w/ SDRAM? almost made me want to throw my board out the window.
As far as their being non-biased sites out there? I don't think there are very many non-biased sites out there, including this one. Everybody is going to have their own idea about which system is better and that is going to reflect in their work,reviews, and comments. The fact of the matter is that I'm only here to tell my experiences w/ P4's and AMD. Who else here has experience with both? Zephyr? Dexion?
And to anwser Kintoke's question, if you can get a good deal on a P3 that would work in your board, then get it. If not, then sell it and pick up a cheap duron system. hell I just bought an MSI board and Duron 750 for only $150.
[EDIT]
If anyone could point me in the direction of some benchmarking help. I would like to bench my system using 3ds Max, and maybe flask or some other type of encoding.
[/EDIT]
<< As far as their being non-biased sites out there? I don't think there are very many non-biased sites out there, including this one. Everybody is going to have their own idea about which system is better and that is going to reflect in their work,reviews, and comments. The fact of the matter is that I'm only here to tell my experiences w/ P4's and AMD. Who else here has experience with both? Zephyr? Dexion? >>
And you do, in some magical way, like NOS, not fall under the same rule as you claim about hardware sites, about having their own idea about what is better?
So who am I more inclined to believe.. people run run a site and works with hardware reviewing to make a living, or some random (no offence) persons grandmother who happens to have brought both a Tbird and a P4??
Even if it is BIASed, all the benchmarks hold true. At this point in time, there is definately no way I will be purchasing a P4 for an extra 40fps for Quake 3, or a extra couple seconds faster at Flask. The price I have to pitch fork over for a P4 is definately not worth the performance gain over the Tbird. The fact that I can build 2 Tbird systems at the price of 1 P4 system definately gives me ideas to run a Quake 3 LAN with a partner at 200fps rather than play alone with bots at 240fps.
..speaking of Q3A
I wouldn't wanna pay a extra for 1 fps more in Q3A
(I play Q3A in 1024x768 rather than 640x480)
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=16
I wouldn't wanna pay a extra for 1 fps more in Q3A
(I play Q3A in 1024x768 rather than 640x480)
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=16
Dexion 2 systems for the price of one is a far stretch there isn't it.
DarkMajiq
<<Which is why Intel designed the P4 like this, so that they could regain the precious MHz crown, and sell overpriced systems to unsuspecting cosumers. There's the money factor again! But this time it's Intel gouging consumers to make a bigger profit!>>
I seem to remember AMD racing to release the 1GHZ athlon and gouging the consumers to the tune of $1200 a chip. Man why is that intel is gouging and AMD is Innovating...
DarkMajiq
<<Which is why Intel designed the P4 like this, so that they could regain the precious MHz crown, and sell overpriced systems to unsuspecting cosumers. There's the money factor again! But this time it's Intel gouging consumers to make a bigger profit!>>
I seem to remember AMD racing to release the 1GHZ athlon and gouging the consumers to the tune of $1200 a chip. Man why is that intel is gouging and AMD is Innovating...
<< Dexion 2 systems for the price of one is a far stretch there isn't it. >>
Not really, we have proved time and time again that a Tbird system can be built for under $1000 thanks to AMD's CPU, MSI's K7Tpro2, and 256mb PC133 under $80. Purchasing a P4 is well over the 2K mark with all the mobo, Rambus and of course the truly expensive P4(yours is an exception).
<< I seem to remember AMD racing to release the 1GHZ athlon and gouging the consumers to the tune of $1200 a chip. Man why is that intel is gouging and AMD is Innovating... >>
If I recall, the P3 1Ghz was around the same price range.
hey...!!! don`t change from thread to thread, stay here!!!, lets make the biggest disscution thread ever!!! (kind of)..jeje..¿ok?
So what exactly are we debating here?
If its that the Thunderbird is better than the P4, you have already agreed that the P4 is better.
<< there is definately no way I will be purchasing a P4 for an extra 40fps for Quake 3, or a extra couple seconds faster at Flask >>
<< ..speaking of Q3A
I wouldn't wanna pay a extra for 1 fps more in Q3A
(I play Q3A in 1024x768 rather than 640x480) >>
And as for playing in 1024x768? How about a real resolution like 1280x1024 or 1600x1200?
<< At 1024 x 768 x 32, once again, we're limited by the memory bandwidth of our test GeForce2 GTS >>
Or you could just get something better than a 32mb GTS. But knowing you guys, I'm sure you are ATI fans too.
If its that the Thunderbird is better than the P4, you have already agreed that the P4 is better.
<< there is definately no way I will be purchasing a P4 for an extra 40fps for Quake 3, or a extra couple seconds faster at Flask >>
<< ..speaking of Q3A
I wouldn't wanna pay a extra for 1 fps more in Q3A
(I play Q3A in 1024x768 rather than 640x480) >>
And as for playing in 1024x768? How about a real resolution like 1280x1024 or 1600x1200?
<< At 1024 x 768 x 32, once again, we're limited by the memory bandwidth of our test GeForce2 GTS >>
Or you could just get something better than a 32mb GTS. But knowing you guys, I'm sure you are ATI fans too.
<< And as for playing in 1024x768? How about a real resolution like 1280x1024 or 1600x1200? >>
Uhm.. thanx for proving my point.. I think? *LOL* ... I'm stuck on a GF1, so I'll keep it at 1024x768, but even with a GF2 the vid. card is still the real bottleneck in Q3A even at 1024x768, so the by some highly touted "huge preformance advantage" the P4 supposedly should hold over the Tbird in this bechmark. It is at best just a moot point since this socalled advantage is restricted to resolutions people doesn't actually play in.
<< Or you could just get something better than a 32mb GTS. But knowing you guys, I'm sure you are ATI fans too. >>
Can you please name me one single vid. card that is NOT the bottleneck at 1024x768? no I didn't think so
Sure I can, not only does the Ultra smoke at standard speeds, it flies when you o/c it. I've only tried the OEM Creative Labs GTS Ultra, but it smoked none the less. Hell my Pro oc's to 460 on the memory. And I thought that was fast. Then again who nows what teh NV20 will do, but at a price.
Also, Zepher you stated that NOS couldn't show you a system that would spank a t-bird, yet when I try to get input from you guys about what to use to benchmark a system to show you a system that could spank a t-bird, you reply with uttter BS.
<< So who am I more inclined to believe.. people run run a site and works with hardware reviewing to make a living, or some random (no offence) persons grandmother who happens to have brought both a Tbird and a P4?? >>
You don't have to beleive me, I'm just showing you what my P4 can do.
Also, Zepher you stated that NOS couldn't show you a system that would spank a t-bird, yet when I try to get input from you guys about what to use to benchmark a system to show you a system that could spank a t-bird, you reply with uttter BS.
<< So who am I more inclined to believe.. people run run a site and works with hardware reviewing to make a living, or some random (no offence) persons grandmother who happens to have brought both a Tbird and a P4?? >>
You don't have to beleive me, I'm just showing you what my P4 can do.
<< Sure I can, not only does the Ultra smoke at standard speeds, it flies when you o/c it. I've only tried the OEM Creative Labs GTS Ultra, but it smoked none the less. Hell my Pro oc's to 460 on the memory. And I thought that was fast. Then again who nows what the NV20 will do, but at a price. >>
I'm not trying to say argue that the Ultra isn't fast, I'm just sayin vid. cards appears to be the bottleneck, not the CPU. Furthermore as monitor sizes increase I would also argue that while the NV20 may max out a Tbird1200 at 1024x768, then that quickly becomes a moot point as well because like you mentioned resolutions like 1280x1024 and 1600x1200 becomes interesting. With real competiton going on in the cpu market, while virtually none in the GPU market, I'm willing to assume that the vid. card will stay the main bottleneck in the forseeable future.
<< Also, Zepher you stated that NOS couldn't show you a system that would spank a t-bird, yet when I try to get input from you guys about what to use to benchmark a system to show you a system that could spank a t-bird, you reply with uttter BS. >>
What benchmark is most important is different from person to person. It solely depends on what you use your computer for. For me I suppose 3d games are the most intereting benchmarks, and in most the vid. card is the bottleneck, so the price premium of the P4 over the Tbird is wasted. Try bechmarking eg. Q3A or UT in realistic resolutions that people actually play if you wanna compare (1024x768 or higher). What you will find is that a $200 cpu with PC133 will preform within a 1 fps margin of the $500 P4 with RDRAM.
I will have to agree that the vid card is the main bottleneck, but at what point does it no longer become a bottle neck? When you are getting 150fps in 1280x1024 or 1600x1200? 200fps?
Realistic? Whats realistic is you get what you pay for. If you want good gaming performance, (except for MDK2) then the P4 looks nice. If you want office and business apps, then by all means buy a tbird. And once again, tom says it here once SSE2 apps come out, those scores will do nothing but increase.
Realistic? Whats realistic is you get what you pay for. If you want good gaming performance, (except for MDK2) then the P4 looks nice. If you want office and business apps, then by all means buy a tbird. And once again, tom says it here once SSE2 apps come out, those scores will do nothing but increase.
<< I will have to agree that the vid card is the main bottleneck, but at what point does it no longer become a bottle neck? When you are getting 150fps in 1280x1024 or 1600x1200? 200fps? >>
The the graphics become more advanced. See the difference between Quake2 and Q3A? Q2 runs much faster at aby given resolutions simply because the engine is much less sophisticated.
<< Realistic? Whats realistic is you get what you pay for. If you want good gaming performance, (except for MDK2) then the P4 looks nice. >>
You are wrong, Q3A is the exception not the rule, if you do not believe me check out UT & expendable scores right here form Anands own review of the P4http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=18 Besides the whole point I'm trying to get acroos is that your gaming preformance mainly depends on your vid. card.
<< If you want office and business apps, then by all means buy a tbird. >>
If you want strong real X87 FPU preformance buy a Tbird.
<< And once again, tom says it here once SSE2 apps come out, those scores will do nothing but increase. >>
I'm not saying SSE2 will not be used, but please consider the timeframe here. AMDs upcomming "hammer" series will also feature SSE2, so once these optimized apps starts appearing so will the hammer.
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