Info AMD confirms Windows 11 slow down its CPUs up to 15%

[deasd]

AMD processors hit by performance issues on Windows 11, patch on the way

AMD has said that its CPUs are taking a performance hit on Windows 11 systems and that it has teams working on the issues. Patches should be released later this month through Windows.

www.neowin.net

AMD: Windows 11 Slows Our CPUs Up To 15%, Patch Coming

High latency bug hits fast

www.tomshardware.com

AMD: Windows 11 May Cause Performance Dips Of Up To 15% On Ryzen CPUs

AMD reported issues that their Windows 11 compatible AMD Ryze CPUs were having with performance while running certain applications.

wccftech.com

The issue mentioned in the opening paragraph is caused by functional L3 cache latency which has increased by around three times on affected hardware. The programs that will suffer include those sensitive to memory subsystem access times. AMD noted another problem too, explaining that UEFI CPPC2 may not schedule threads on the processor’s fastest core preferentially.


Regarding the latter issue, applications sensitive to the performance of one or a few CPU threads will see a performance hit. The issue will be more noticeable on greater than 8-core processors that operate at over 65W. This issue should also be fixed this month.

hmmmm, whose fault is it this time? It screw up the future hardware review if true? what about Intel side?

 

[Roland00Address]

"It runs bad on AMD" isn't going to hurt Intel laptop sales.

That is not the only problem happening right now. And that is not something I care about, AMD or Intel laptop sales. I was talking about Microsoft and its earlier product not specifically the product on specific hardware. I am arguing windows 11 was rushed and this may be okay, but I am not filled with confidence.

But hey we will find out in a few months how bad it is or NOT. I am not in the mood to argue. Windows 11 was announced 6/24/2021 aka late June, and half a week later on the 28th we got the first Beta (technical term being Insider preview 22000.51 )

3 months is not enough time to take in information and fix any bugs to have it ship on October 5th, 2021. They were "confident" that shipping the final product would be ready and you didn't need a Beta and incorporation period for they were confident it was more or less ready then in June. And any thing discovered in those 3 months can be fixed at a later date. It is the move fast and break things strategy.

And maybe I am wrong, maybe Windows 11 will not have any problems with this shorten development cycle since it is based on Windows 10 core and is somewhat just a cosmetic upgrade. That said this "does not fill me with confidence." *shrug*

Microsoft was still thinking about doing Windows with Containers and so on with Windows 10X and "communicating" this intention as of April 2021. But in May they decided 10X is deader than dead, even though there were rumors this was the direction way prior to May 2021. (We found out development was halted in February after some bad January experiences, and the project was canceled but some of the stuff was folded into Windows 11 which is shipping now.)

 

[Hans de Vries]

How it started:

Intel’s New Alder Lake Processors Will Run Faster On Windows 11

Other operating systems including Windows 10 could be slower - here's why

www.forbes.com

However, Microsoft has stated that it has worked with Intel to ensure that Windows 11 is specifically optimized for Alder Lake's new CPU core design and Thread Director. Both companies have said that thanks to the optimizations, Alder Lake will perform better on Windows 11 than other operating systems as a result.

How it is going:

AMD: Windows 11 Slows Our CPUs Up To 15%, Patch Coming

High latency bug hits fast

www.tomshardware.com

The errors impact every Ryzen CPU supported in Windows 11. That means all Zen+, Zen 2 and Zen 3 CPUs that comprise the Ryzen 2000, Ryzen 3000, Ryzen 4000, and Ryzen 5000 processors. In addition, select AMD EPYC processors for data centers, along with some newer Athlon chips, are also impacted. You can see the full list here, but suffice it to say that every AMD chip on our Best CPUs for gaming list is included.

AMD's advisory says that the issue boils down into two categories. First, the measured and functional L3 latency can increase by ~3X, meaning you can see the impact with measurement utilities and that it results in real performance degradation in games and applications. The bug impacts applications that are sensitive to memory subsystem latency, causing a 3–5% reduction in performance. This issue also causes the 10–15% performance reduction outliers in games "commonly used for eSports," which isn't surprising given that games tend to be extremely sensitive to memory and cache latency.

 

[Zucker2k]

frankly i could be on 7 and not even notice the difference.

You don't multiboot? Some of us are too sentimental to let go legends like Win 7, and if you like to run the occasional bench, it's best to do it on a stripped version of your favorite bench OS, unless you have a dedicated benching system for that.

 

[nosurprises]

It is the move fast and break things strategy.

I'm sure that works well for some software products and features. Not so sure about an OS.

 

[Arkaign]

You don't multiboot? Some of us are too sentimental to let go legends like Win 7, and if you like to run the occasional bench, it's best to do it on a stripped version of your favorite bench OS, unless you have a dedicated benching system for that.

I just installed Win98SE on a P4 1.8 with 256MB RDRAM lol 😆 Radeon 9600XT and SB Live. Runs dos games real well other than stuff too old to run at normal speed.

I can't really seem to find a reason to run Vista, 7, or 8 though. W10 isn't too hard to optimize well enough IMHO.

 

[JoeRambo]

While the stupidness of multi billion companies like MS or AMD is hard to overestimate, i have always felt that ZEN and ZEN2 were always vulnerable to such shenigans from OS or sudden cases of "new version of my productivity app is sluggish".
ZEN1/2 were basically CPUs with "NUMA" qualities from server cpus pushed on desktop users. There was steep memory latency and while intra-CCX latency was amazing, communication to other CCX had penalty that was NUMA like on server CPUs before.

So all those NUMA unaware applications, that did stupid things on monolithics CPUs for decade+ of multiprocessing and got away cause on Intel "worst" case was latency of L3 trips, were now suddenly thrown under the bus.

So i am not even suprised that AMD is having those problems and not Intel. Having small market share and unorthodox architecture makes you vulnerable to things like that.

What is suprising, is that Zen3 chips with 1CCD are impacted, they look perfectly fine from that monolithic architecture point. So probably MS screwed up with something deeper like virtualization protection or whatever that is running unexpectedly slower on AMD CPUs?

If we assume that it's not "scheduling" part that is broken - that still leaves ton of things to get wrong like voltage/clock control, unexpectedly high sys call latency, all those new virtualization protections based on CPU features and so on.

 

[Roland00Address]

I'm sure that works well for some software products and features. Not so sure about an OS.

You understand why I am distressed then 😛 , it may be just fine in the end but core OS should be the most stable layer inside of the computer! It has to be rock solid.

 

[DigDog]

frankly i find it terribly difficult to discuss M$ OSs when we cannot discuss community-modded versions. I am not advocating not paying M$ for a license, but as an oldskool user i see modded OS to be absolutely legitimate, and i have not been on a vanilla OS since 2004. My W7 was a modded build, my current 10 is a modded build. I don't have to deal with Cortana, or widgets, or any of that "we sell apps now" bs.

My idea of a business transaction between me and Microsoft is i give you money, you sell me Windows, end of transaction. I will never accept that my system is a permanent commercial adspace for M$ to try (and fail) to sell me more stuff.


I will defend my W10 install with the same arguments that i used to defend my XP install - it's my install. You don't know what goes in my XP, and you don't know what goes in my W7 or W10. My 2009 Win XP build was nothing that you would recognize as a XP, it was modded within an inch of its life, ridiculously stable, tons of stuff disabled, extremely efficient.

Already there, there's an argument for my not wanting to move to 11 - i would need to start again disabling stuff. Explaining to microsoft that, yes, *I* am the administrator of my system, that yes, i am allowed to delete files, i do in fact decide which updates to install and which i don't, and no, we do not want to buy your new thingamajig.

Frankly i doubt that M$ has changed ways. But i will wait and see what the less-than-respected community has to offer when W11 gets repackaged to a usable system, and maybe then i'll buy it, who knows. By that time TMP and most of the "NEW! AMAZE!" stuff W11 has will have been removed, so, who knows.

 

[Geegeeoh]

My idea of a business transaction between me and Microsoft is i give you money, you sell me Windows, end of transaction.

Just forget about the terms and conditions you agree if you install Windows... or any other software.
Yeah... not that simple.
You don't buy software, you buy a license to use it.

 

[DigDog]

You don't buy software, you buy a license to use it...

.. in the shape supplied to you by the software company, in the ways designated by the software company.

 

[cytg111]

So this is the last version of windows from Microsoft.
Vista 2.0
Great.

 

[ElFenix]

2k: 👍
XP: 👍
Vista: 👎
7: 👍
8: 👎
10: 👍
11: 👎

it's like the civ game rule

 

[cytg111]

How it started:

Intel’s New Alder Lake Processors Will Run Faster On Windows 11

Other operating systems including Windows 10 could be slower - here's why

www.forbes.com

However, Microsoft has stated that it has worked with Intel to ensure that Windows 11 is specifically optimized for Alder Lake's new CPU core design and Thread Director. Both companies have said that thanks to the optimizations, Alder Lake will perform better on Windows 11 than other operating systems as a result.

How it is going:

AMD: Windows 11 Slows Our CPUs Up To 15%, Patch Coming

High latency bug hits fast

www.tomshardware.com

The errors impact every Ryzen CPU supported in Windows 11. That means all Zen+, Zen 2 and Zen 3 CPUs that comprise the Ryzen 2000, Ryzen 3000, Ryzen 4000, and Ryzen 5000 processors. In addition, select AMD EPYC processors for data centers, along with some newer Athlon chips, are also impacted. You can see the full list here, but suffice it to say that every AMD chip on our Best CPUs for gaming list is included.

AMD's advisory says that the issue boils down into two categories. First, the measured and functional L3 latency can increase by ~3X, meaning you can see the impact with measurement utilities and that it results in real performance degradation in games and applications. The bug impacts applications that are sensitive to memory subsystem latency, causing a 3–5% reduction in performance. This issue also causes the 10–15% performance reduction outliers in games "commonly used for eSports," which isn't surprising given that games tend to be extremely sensitive to memory and cache latency.

Whats the actual bug though? TPM 2.0 secured start button ads?

 

[Hans de Vries]

Whats the actual bug though? TPM 2.0 secured start button ads?

Jokes aside, the Windows 11 scheduler is doing a bad job for gaming. This is (an AMD sponsered) video from August:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

t.co

In anyway the root cause seems to be known since a solution is promised to come this month.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

IMHO:
The problem of course has been aware to Microsoft and AMD for months. And of course will they have worked together to find out the root-cause and solve it.

The shocking moment for AMD was that MS decided to release W11 without the fix in place instead of integrating it right from the start. That is why they went public in order to tell everyone just to be a little more patient.

Now why did MS take that decision? I am pretty sure that they had agreed on a deadline with Intel because W11 is vital for ADL and vice versa (new Hardware sells the new OS as well). In the whole process they decided to throw AMD under the Bus. But I guess in a couple of months all this will be forgotten and we will hear how nicely MS and AMD cooperate on the Xbox and Surface side.

 

[deasd]

L3 performance collapsed when switch from win10 to win11:
Read from 898GB/s to 136GB/s (-85%)
Write from 565GB/s to 51GB/s (-91%)
Copy from 701GB/s to 66GB/s (-91%)
Latency from 11.2ns to 32.1ns (-187%)

if future patches doesn't work effectively the AMD processors would be condemned to death at win11

 

[DrMrLordX]

As an aside

I run Win11 preview builds on my 3900x. Currently on 22000.194 in the beta channel. I never noticed any problems.

edit: okay, yeah, AIDA64 showed a reduction in L3 performance on my machine as well. Weird. It hasn't shown up in any applications I run though. Wonder if I can get a fix by switching to the dev channel.

 

[jpiniero]

Now why did MS take that decision? I am pretty sure that they had agreed on a deadline with Intel because W11 is vital for ADL and vice versa (new Hardware sells the new OS as well). In the whole process they decided to throw AMD under the Bus. But I guess in a couple of months all this will be forgotten and we will hear how nicely MS and AMD cooperate on the Xbox and Surface side.

I'm sure it was OEMs. Given the craziness around shipping right now I could see OEMs wanting extra time to fill the channel with systems. Alder Lake-S obviously can't be released until after Windows 11 is but they could have waited if need be.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

@jpiniero
Might as well be the case. I just wanted to point out that MS seems to have found itself caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Kedas]

Intel Thread Director AMD Thread Disturber

I find it surprising that M$ is so gullible to do general changes intel asks and not checking what the effect is on AMD CPU's.
Anybody here (of age) knows that intel will sabotage AMD if they get the opportunity to do so, so why did M$ not know that.

Maybe intel hopes that this 'OS restoring' will come AFTER their CPU release, so the first reviews are in with a bigger difference, maybe they hoped it would be noticed later....I'm sure reality is more complex but evil anyway.

If alder lake on Win11 isn't beating Zen3D on Win10 in games then Win 11 can take it's place with Vista and 8 for sure.

Maybe M$ wants to do the good thing and teach everyone that new does not mean better.

 

[scineram]

L3 performance collapsed when switch from win10 to win11:
Read from 898GB/s to 136GB/s (-85%)
Write from 565GB/s to 51GB/s (-91%)
Copy from 701GB/s to 66GB/s (-91%)
Latency from 11.2ns to 32.1ns (-187%)

if future patches doesn't work effectively the AMD processors would be condemned to death at win11

View attachment 51143

Isn’t this just a benchmark reporting issue? How could an OS have such an effect on CPU internals?

 

[Asterox]

Intel Thread Director AMD Thread Disturber

I find it surprising that M$ is so gullible to do general changes intel asks and not checking what the effect is on AMD CPU's.
Anybody here (of age) knows that intel will sabotage AMD if they get the opportunity to do so, so why did M$ not know that.

Maybe intel hopes that this 'OS restoring' will come AFTER their CPU release, so the first reviews are in with a bigger difference, maybe they hoped it would be noticed later....I'm sure reality is more complex but evil anyway.

If alder lake on Win11 isn't beating Zen3D on Win10 in games then Win 11 can take it's place with Vista and 8 for sure.

Maybe M$ wants to do the good thing and teach everyone that new does not mean better.

For example, if you take into account up to 15% worse(L3 Cache bug) performance + this comparison.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1446742599193141253

 

[jpiniero]

Isn’t this just a benchmark reporting issue? How could an OS have such an effect on CPU internals?

That's why my speculation that this is some sort of AMD specific Smeltdown-like security fix.

 

[jpiniero]

It's worth reminding that MS says they are going to support Windows 10 until 2025 and it didn't sound like they were going to push people to upgrade right away. You might have difficulty buying a consumer PC with 10 pretty soon however.

 

[cytg111]

anyway, if its nonfixable isnt it just a matter of time before its backported to 10?